The demise of Bootable macOS Clones?

[krs]

Not sure of the logic of that last paragraph. You could do the same thing with an Intel Mac and any internal drive, even the ones that were soldered to the logic board. It makes no sense to me to deliberately stop a boot that way. Apple created the capability for a firmware password to prevent that kind of gambit on Intel systems. Apple says to achieve the same thing in an M1 Mac, use FileVault.

As I said - that was what the author wrote - obviously just his opinion.
Has Apple ever officially commented on bootability of M1 Macs using an external drive? Or the lack thereof?
I don't use FileVault, but would that really prevent one from booting up on an external and then use Disk Utility on the external to reformat the internal drive?
Not trying to read any data on the internal drive, just a total wipe and reformat.

 

[MacInWin]

Has Apple ever officially commented on bootability of M1 Macs using an external drive? Or the lack thereof?

Not that I am aware of. But they have now, with 11.4, made it possible to do so, so they seem to be working toward supporting it.

I don't use FileVault, but would that really prevent one from booting up on an external and then use Disk Utility on the external to reformat the internal drive?

Not normally on an Intel Mac. For that you would use a firmware password. But the documentation from Apple on firmware passwords says to use FileVault instead. Set a firmware password on your Mac

 

[Lifeisabeach]

As I said - that was what the author wrote - obviously just his opinion.
Has Apple ever officially commented on bootability of M1 Macs using an external drive? Or the lack thereof?
I don't use FileVault, but would that really prevent one from booting up on an external and then use Disk Utility on the external to reformat the internal drive?
Not trying to read any data on the internal drive, just a total wipe and reformat.

I'm able to choose my bootable clone as a startup drive from the firmware. If Apple hadn't intended for that to be an option on the Apple Silicon platform, that would be one epic oversight, especially being over 6 months since launch of the platform.

What I can tell you is that when I was trying to install Big Sur clean to the external drive from the Recovery Utility in the firmware, I was required to provide an admin password for a user on the existing install first. So I think that means one can't just take someone else's Mac; install macOS to an external; then wipe the internal. That "shouldn't" be possible. Now I don't know what would happen if you took a bootable drive from a different Mac that was otherwise compatible and tried to boot off of that. There is a Startup Security Utility that should prevent it, or possibly allow it if the owner had opted to use "reduced" security.

 

[MacInWin]

Another excellent explanation of how the M1 boots and why clones are not as useful in Big Sur and M1. Why cloning Big Sur isn’t as useful for an M1 Mac

 

[MacInWin]

And another: An M1 Mac Can’t Boot from an External Drive If Its Internal Drive Is Dead - TidBITS

I think the nail is pretty fully in the coffin on this one. If the internal drive on an M1 Mac fails, it's not going to boot. Period.

 

[chscag]

That's a great article from TidBITS. I like what the author said at the end: "If your head is spinning, join the club".

The entire recovery process for the M1 and likely for future Apple Silicon machines is complex. Which is why I believe Apple has gone the route of extending Apple Care after the initial AC+ expires.

 

[krs]

The entire recovery process for the M1 and likely for future Apple Silicon machines is complex. Which is why I believe Apple has gone the route of extending Apple Care after the initial AC+ expires.

Except now, with or without Apple Care, if the internal drive fails one will be without a computer for several weeks.
I better dust off my old Minis and MacBook pros I still have kicking around before I move to an M1 Mac.

 

[chscag]

Except now, with or without Apple Care, if the internal drive fails one will be without a computer for several weeks.
I better dust off my old Minis and MacBook pros I still have kicking around before I move to an M1 Mac.

Yeah, I was thinking the same thing. We normally hand down our current Mac when buying a new one, but now I have to re-think that. Either that, or buy a cheap Chromebook or PC to keep on hand so we can continue doing our work.

I purchased an iPad Pro several years ago thinking I could always use it as a backup when my current Mac was out of service. But during several days when my internet connection was out, I used the iPad Pro to access the forums and also to do other things.

I can verify that an iPad Pro with a magic keyboard is not a realistic substitute for a working computer. It sufficed, but it was not something I would recommend.

 

[Slydude]

Thanks for that perspective Charlie. That thought had crossed my mind. Just out of curiosity, what did you like/not like about that arrangement?

 

[chscag]

Thanks for that perspective Charlie. That thought had crossed my mind. Just out of curiosity, what did you like/not like about that arrangement?

Working with the smaller screen was hard to get used to after being on a 27" iMac. But that wasn't the worst part. Having to use my fingers or a pointer with a rubber tip in place of a mouse or trackpad was very hard for me.

Then, if I had to make corrections like removing a line of words, it never went smoothly. I always wound up either erasing what I didn't want to erase, or pasting what I didn't want to paste. All in all, it took much longer for me to do things that came naturally on a working computer.

Lucky for me the outage only lasted two days until the tech came and repaired the coax that the varmints ate through.

 

[Slydude]

Given my experiences with trying to use the iPad for things like forums, that makes sense. That's been my feeling when I try to do things like adding something to Notes. I've certainly never tried editing a long document.

 

[MacInWin]

Nothing I am doing these days is that critical, so being without a machine for a week won't be disastrous. But I think Charlie's idea of having a backup mini somewhere once I replace this MBP with an M1 (or other Apple Silicon) version might be worth having around. I could use it in home automation, or as the entertainment server for the network, then if any AS machine dies, boot the external drive onto that for the temporary fill in. Have to think about that one. For a business operation, or something critical, the fact that any failure in the SoC makes the entire SoC non-operable would be cause for some serious concern. Might call for some emergency backup machines, just in case.

This will definitely take some thought and planning.

 

[Rod]

This is the part of Mike's article that concerns me,
Soft failure of the internal SSD, for example significant corruption in the absence of any hardware failure, is recoverable by putting the Mac into DFU mode, connecting to another Mac, and restoring its firmware and software using Configurator 2. This is surprisingly quick and simple, although it may appear daunting. For those without another suitable Mac, Apple stores and service providers can do this for you. What you then end up with is effectively a new Mac, and you’ll be reliant on your backups to set its Data volume up.

Corruption of just the normal macOS boot container is best managed by installing macOS from recoveryOS, and migration from your backup. It’s this step which might appear most amenable to cloning, but the advantage of installing a fresh copy of macOS is that it’s guaranteed to be completely wholesome, and will hook up correctly with its firmlinked Data volume."

Configurator 2 is new territory for me but I guess I have time to brush up on it. One of our users has already employed this method mentioned in another thread.

 

[NewsView]

This thread hasn't had a new post in some time so perhaps there are solutions now for bootable backups on M1/M2 machines that I'm unaware of. (Until recently, I as still using a late 2009 iMac and mid-2012 MacBook Pro, so that gives you an idea how far behind I am.) However, as a longtime Mac user dating back to the early 1990s, coming up to speed about the changes in recent years has left me with some concerns that I am curious if others share.

My impression reading through this thread that SoC is essentially turning the entire line of Macs desktops and laptops into a spinoff of the iPad/iPhone, with a few tweaks to make them more suitable for use with a keyboard and mouse. It isn't just this thread that contributed to this impression. With the Intel Macs more was better: more ram, more hard drive space. With the M2 Macs I recently considered purchasing, I was surprised to see sub-512GB SSD options paired to meagure amounts of RAM (8GB is something I last used in the 1990s!). Seems like we're going backward compared to just a few years ago — that is until one takes the position that the entire macOS has taken on the feel of iOS.

It also strikes me that that eventually Apple Silicone-equipped Macs may make a majority of non-technical users dependent on the iCloud not just for data storage but device backups. With SoC, it remains to be seen how well third-party developers (CCC), hardware providers (OWC) and independent Mac repair shops will thrive over the next 5+ years.

One would think that at some point this will flag as an actionable anti-trust violation since it will force Apple consumers to become increasingly dependent on Apple iCloud and AppleCare + going forward.

Apparently the end of the line is coming for Intel architecture in general, so I expect PC users will eventually find themselves in the same boat.

Between AI and device maker "ecosystems, it seems like the business model is evolving toward a plantation that few will have the means to escape, and it doesn't bode well for the many businesses that arose around supporting Apple and Microsoft users in the 1990s and early 2000s.

 

[Slydude]

I think third-party developers will continue to be not only necessary but many will do quite well. Apple can't possibly create every type of software its users might need.

You mentioned CCC as an example and I think their experience is a good example of how things may shake out. I initially purchased that program some time ago because some of the other available options didn't create "bootable" clones.

I created a bootable clone on an M1 mini a few weeks ago and I'm currently running from that clone now. That would not likely be possible if the computer had suffered some kind of failure. The process of bootable cloning is indeed getting more difficult with each chip generation but the program itself is still quite useful.

If it lost the ability to create bootable clones I'd still use it as part of my backup strategy. My primary backup is with Time Machine but there are times I want to keep a separate backup consisting of only certain files/folders.

The hardware changes are a little concerning in the sense that you have to think a bit more carefully when purchasing. The newer systems don't have user-upgradeable memory but the base memory level is sufficient for most users. Drive space can still be supplemented without resorting to cloud-based storage. Of course, we don't know how long that will last.

 

[Randy B. Singer]

...coming up to speed about the changes in recent years has left me with some concerns that I am curious if others share.

My impression reading through this thread that SoC is essentially turning the entire line of Macs desktops and laptops into a spinoff of the iPad/iPhone, with a few tweaks to make them more suitable for use with a keyboard and mouse. It isn't just this thread that contributed to this impression. With the Intel Macs more was better: more ram, more hard drive space. With the M2 Macs I recently considered purchasing, I was surprised to see sub-512GB SSD options paired to meagure amounts of RAM (8GB is something I last used in the 1990s!). Seems like we're going backward compared to just a few years ago — that is until one takes the position that the entire macOS has taken on the feel of iOS.

It also strikes me that that eventually Apple Silicone-equipped Macs may make a majority of non-technical users dependent on the iCloud not just for data storage but device backups. ...

Between AI and device maker "ecosystems, it seems like the business model is evolving toward a plantation that few will have the means to escape, ...

I think that this is a ludicrously negative view of the Macintosh now, and in the future. I know that folks these days like to fabricate conspiracy theories, and I know that it is tempting to do so with regard to the Macintosh because new things relating to technology are scary, but really, it isn't warranted.

The reason that Macs come with only 8GB of RAM as a minimum, is because extremely few users need more. The Mac, over the years, has evolved to need less RAM, not more. Apple has implemented very sophistocated memory management, and memory compression. So you don't need more RAM than you used to, in fact, you probably need less. See:

Opinion: Is the base MacBook Air M1/8GB powerful enough for you?

Is the base MacBook Air M1/8GB powerful enough for you? - 9to5Mac

So I decided to pick up the base $999 MacBook Air` to see how it would hold up side-by-side with my 16-inch behemoth. The results are incredible.

9to5mac.com

8GB vs 16GB M1 MacBook Pro - How much RAM do you NEED?!

Yes, you can purchase a new Mac with 512GB of storage space. You can also purchase one with 1TB or 2TB of storage space. Or, as always, you can attach an external hard drive to add as much storage as you need. I don't know what you are complaining about here.

It's true that you can't upgrade the RAM or storage that your Mac has *internally* once you have purchased it. This doesn't mean that you are in trouble if you under-estimated how much of either that you need. As noted above, 8GB of RAM is probably plenty for almost anything that you will be doing. You can always add storage space externally.

Apple didn't integrate RAM and storage on their SOC as some sort of nefarious scheme against you. They did it so that they could eliminate bottlenecks in performance and thus give you blazing fast personal computers. I think that, more than anything, that's what users want; more performance. I also think that the minor tradeoffs for getting that performance are easily worth it.

I don't know where you got this total BS that Apple is forcing you to use iCloud. They aren't. You can totally ignore iCloud if you want to. Also, third party storage and backup software developers are doing just fine in the era of Apple Silicon. I don't know what's going on with CCC, but SuperDuper! users are reporting that they are having little to no problems creating bootable backups. External hard drives work fine with Apple Silicon-based Macs.

Some few people have been saying that Apple is trying to make the Macintosh exactly like iOS for a long time now. It seems to me that if that were the case that Apple would have done it by now. But they haven't. The Mac OS is entirely recognizable as a separate OS that, as far as the basics go, is pretty much just like it was 20 years ago. It's true that Apple has been working to make iOS and the Mac OS work as seamlessly as possible together (because users want to be able to have their work easily transfer from their Mac to their iPad and back), and Apple has also wanted to rationalize BOTH OS's so that a user of one isn't entirely flummoxed by the other. But this doesn't at all mean that Apple is turning the Mac OS into iOS. The sky isn't falling.

Some things are different with the latest Macs, it's true. But, please, try not to lose your mind over it. It's nothing that you can't deal with. If you are the type that can't handle anything new or different in the latest personal computers, then maybe personal computers aren't for you. Because if Apple stopped innovating, if they stopped improving, if they stopped moving forward...no one would buy their products anymore. Consumers DEMAND that Apple move things forward. It's up to you if you want to move forward with Apple and everyone else.

 

[Rod]

This thread hasn't had a new post in some time so perhaps there are solutions now for bootable backups on M1/M2 machines that I'm unaware of. (Until recently, I as still using a late 2009 iMac and mid-2012 MacBook Pro, so that gives you an idea how far behind I am.) However, as a longtime Mac user dating back to the early 1990s, coming up to speed about the changes in recent years has left me with some concerns that I am curious if others share.

My impression reading through this thread that SoC is essentially turning the entire line of Macs desktops and laptops into a spinoff of the iPad/iPhone, with a few tweaks to make them more suitable for use with a keyboard and mouse. It isn't just this thread that contributed to this impression. With the Intel Macs more was better: more ram, more hard drive space. With the M2 Macs I recently considered purchasing, I was surprised to see sub-512GB SSD options paired to meagure amounts of RAM (8GB is something I last used in the 1990s!). Seems like we're going backward compared to just a few years ago — that is until one takes the position that the entire macOS has taken on the feel of iOS.

It also strikes me that that eventually Apple Silicone-equipped Macs may make a majority of non-technical users dependent on the iCloud not just for data storage but device backups. With SoC, it remains to be seen how well third-party developers (CCC), hardware providers (OWC) and independent Mac repair shops will thrive over the next 5+ years.

One would think that at some point this will flag as an actionable anti-trust violation since it will force Apple consumers to become increasingly dependent on Apple iCloud and AppleCare + going forward.

Apparently the end of the line is coming for Intel architecture in general, so I expect PC users will eventually find themselves in the same boat.

Between AI and device maker "ecosystems, it seems like the business model is evolving toward a plantation that few will have the means to escape, and it doesn't bode well for the many businesses that arose around supporting Apple and Microsoft users in the 1990s and early 2000s.

Without going into the details, I think others have already adequately done that, I can't really agree with any of the above.

 

[MacInWin]

Well said, Randy. In addition, while it is slightly more complex to boot from external because of added security, it still works.

 

[Lifeisabeach]

Also, third party storage and backup software developers are doing just fine in the era of Apple Silicon. I don't know what's going on with CCC, but SuperDuper! users are reporting that they are having little to no problems creating bootable backups. External hard drives work fine with Apple Silicon-based Macs.

CCC user here. I can confirm that it makes bootable backups just fine. You have to enable an option for it that's easily overlooked, and it can't do incremental backups to a bootable backup, but it can make them.

 

[pm-r]

Well said, Randy. In addition, while it is slightly more complex to boot from external because of added security, it still works.

Thanks for adding that additional comment Jake, as reading various other Mac User forums one can get the impression that some of the new Macs with a recent OS cannot be booted from a Backup clone.




- Patrick
=======