The demise of Bootable macOS Clones?

[krs]

If the SoC has a failure, that process won't work because it won't boot, period.

Yeah, if any part of the SoC fails, parts that were easily replacable in the past like RAM or storage, the whole Mac has now become a throw-away item.
Pretty ironic when one sees Apple touting their commitment to the environment.

 

[MacInWin]

Yeah, if any part of the SoC fails, parts that were easily replacable in the past like RAM or storage, the whole Mac has now become a throw-away item.
Pretty ironic when one sees Apple touting their commitment to the environment.

No body says to throw it away. You send it back under either the warranty or AppleCare+, which is now renewable. Or just pay for a logic board replacement, which will be less than a new machine, I suspect.

 

[Randy B. Singer]

...In the M1 (or Mx) environment, a bootable external is useless because the system is not bootable fi the internal integrated storage fails.

If CCC and SD! can resume making bootable clone backup drives for M1-based Macs, it seems to me that a bootable clone is far from "useless". In the event of a catastrophic failure of your main M1 Macintosh, all that you need to do is attach your bootable clone to another Mac, boot from your backup, and you are back to work as if nothing ever happened. True, you need to have a Mac that will run under the same version of the Mac OS, and there is now the new requirement to have a backup Macintosh, but when your work in important, having a bootable backup is a huge thing.

Many of us already have multiple Macs. Some have both desktops and laptops. Some have older Macs that their newer Mac replaced. If worse came to worse, one could lease an additional Macintosh until their main one was repaired.

In my work I can't afford to have everything down for the major portion of a day or two. I have deadlines. I can't be relying on a Time Machine backup, where, if my main Mac completely dies, it will take me many hours to reconfigure another Mac to be set up and run exactly like the old one.

 

[MacInWin]

Randy, good thoughts, but that backup Mac also has to be an M1 or some of the software probably won't run. It's a temporary issue as eventually ALL new Macs will be Mx, but for now, you would need a second M1 machine to make what you want to do work. And at that point, a bootable backup could be useful again. Most of us simple users, however, are unlikely to have a second M1 backup machine like a business might. It's not that boot-ability is dead, as much as it is much less useful. At some point the cost/benefit of paying for a bootable backup has to be recalculated. And that's really all that I have been saying--I'm rethinking my backup plan for when I get a new M1 system and the old approach doesn't work the same way.

 

[Lifeisabeach]

I think we are not communicating. That process you posted works if the data on the drive is simply corrupted, or the system needs to be reinstalled, or your data recovered. But you can do that same process with a TM backup. For free. What does not seem to work is that the system will not boot at all if any part of the system chip is actually faulty, including the area used as storage (the drive). The process in that section assumes that the SoC is fine, it just needs to be reinstalled. If the SoC has a failure, that process won't work because it won't boot, period.

In which case no bootable backup would work, correct? So I'm still not understanding what all the fuss is about with regards to CCC and/or bootable backups. But is that accurate about what happens if the SSD is faulty? Do we KNOW this?

Anywho, as an update... I've been working on making a bootable backup using Bombich's instructions and it's not going well. I made a clean clone to a freshly erased parition, which indeed was a data-only clone. I then booted into Recovery Mode and installed Big Sur to that backup partition. When I attempted to boot off that drive, I was asked to authorize a user, but it insisted my password was incorrect (it most certainly was not). I then re-cloned my data using CCC and the end result? Trying to set my backup drive as the startup disk results in a message saying I need to reinstall Big Sur.

My best guess at this point, since I'm assuming Bombich knows what they are talking about, is that the problem I'm experiencing is rooted in me having multiple partitions on my external drive. I have one partition as an emergency boot disk with some utilities; the Backup partition in questions; and a 3rd ExFAT parition for transferring files easily to Boot Camp on my iMac. Maybe if the drive was formatted as a single partition, this would go smoother. I don't know. Nor care at this moment.

 

[MacInWin]

In which case no bootable backup would work, correct? So I'm still not understanding what all the fuss is about with regards to CCC and/or bootable backups. But is that accurate about what happens if the SSD is faulty? Do we KNOW this?

I do not KNOW that because I have not had an M1 failure to test. But I read it in multiple Mac-specific websites. The integration seems to be so tight that the entire memory structure is dynamically allocated as the various functions need it. So any given memory location might be RAM, or Storage, or cache, or scratch, at any time. The firmware of the SoC seems to have some ability to adjust and block out small areas of failure, but if there is any major issue that tight integration then starts to bite because the CPU or GPU may demand a space, be assigned to one that has failed and therefore crash. So, if the SoC has the equivalent of an SSD failure, the system is dead. At least from the reading I have done. I'll see if I can locate the various places I have read that again.

 

[Rod]

Dear Lifeisabeach, do go back to my original post #1 and read the article on creating a Legacy Bootable Backup, in particular note this section, "If the selected destination is an APFS-formatted volume, and if the volume's container has enough capacity to accommodate a complete backup of the source volume, CCC will offer an option to add a volume to the destination APFS container. When you choose this option, your selected destination is not erased. Instead, CCC will add a new volume on the destination and use the new volume as the destination to your task."

The whole article takes a bit of re reading for this old codger but I think the opening statement of the article (in red) is pretty clear. A bootable backup is not only not recommended but likely to be useless. At least for an M1.

Secondly, the volume cannot be updated in situ. Each macOS update requires complete erasure of the volume and a brand new copy made.

Bear in mind I have an Intel based MBP so ,that's where I'm coming from.

My recent attempt to boot from an earlier bootable version of macOS (11.3) made with CCC on a device running macOS 11.3.1 resulted in a boot sequence kernel panic which rendered my clone and my internal SSD un bootable.
I was simply following Bombich's instructions for updating macOS on a bootable clone (which I had done successfully in the past) but the result was disaster. Maybe it was device specific, maybe I should have updated the clone first, I will never know.
In the end I had to use a bootable USB installer to erase my internal SSD and instal Catalina then upgrade from there. Basically a "clean" instal, then recover my data from the clone which worked fine as an EHD.

So, my advice, based on the fact that some of us are in unknown territory here, is the "safe" method for now is a data only backup from which I know I can recover from unless my internal drive is irrevocably damaged and even if it is, that just means a new SSD.

 

[Lifeisabeach]

I do not KNOW that because I have not had an M1 failure to test. But I read it in multiple Mac-specific websites. The integration seems to be so tight that the entire memory structure is dynamically allocated as the various functions need it. So any given memory location might be RAM, or Storage, or cache, or scratch, at any time. The firmware of the SoC seems to have some ability to adjust and block out small areas of failure, but if there is any major issue that tight integration then starts to bite because the CPU or GPU may demand a space, be assigned to one that has failed and therefore crash. So, if the SoC has the equivalent of an SSD failure, the system is dead. At least from the reading I have done. I'll see if I can locate the various places I have read that again.

I see where you are going in that regard and that may well be correct. I suspect it is, to be honest. But it still doesn't negate the point that a bootable backup "should" be possible, even if some hoop jumping may be required and in spite of my attempt to make one using Bombich's instructions. I'm actually really teed off that it didn't work out for me..... it should have.

 

[MacInWin]

I said I would try to find what I had read. There were several articles.

Here is one:

How bad is the M1 Mac's SSD failure problem?

If your M1 Mac's SSD fails, you can't boot off an external drive, a change from past decades. Here's the problem and strategies to manage the risk.

www.zdnet.com

and this:

Are external boot disks a thing of the past?

Before Apple added T2 chips to Intel Macs, external boot disks were valuable for many users. How has that fared since?

eclecticlight.co

and:

Last Week on My Mac: 1 True Recovery

Intel Macs have 14 different startup modes and variations, each engaged using different key combinations. One True Recovery replaces those with a single action and GUI with help. It’s a big s…

eclecticlight.co

On that last article, the important part of it is that the final fallback for an SSD failure is actually stored in a Container on the SSD storage in the M1 system. So, if the SSD portion of storage fails, you lose the SSD (all containers) plus the Recovery and 1 True Recovery last ditch boot system.

Putting it together, if the SSD fails, there is no boot, external or recovery. We'll see when/if failures start to appear. Hopefully there won't be many!

 

[Rod]

I, like others am rethinking my backup plan. AND my future upgrade of this old 2015 13" MBPr.
Usually I look forward to an upgrade, a shiny new device with faster CPU, better graphics, full compatability with new macOS features, better lots of things but the entrance of the Silicon M1 with it's SoC and ASR issues has taken the appeal off the prospect some what.
Dependent on when the need arises and taking into account that I have a second old 2010 MacBook as a backup I'm even considering getting the new 13" MBP;
2.0GHz Intel Core i5 Quad-Core Processor with Intel Iris Plus Graphics
512GB storage
Its cheaper, has the same architecture and will remain compatible with new macOS and my current technology.

 

[Rod]

Jake, the links are great, thanks for them. A good read.
What I have decided on (for now) is daily data only backups with CCC, probably wont bother to update to CCC 6.

Time Machine backups daily.

And just because of my preferences I updated my version of Instal Disk Creator, the current version has been updated to handle Big Sur bootable installers.

Last night I downloaded a fresh copy of Big Sur 11.3.1 installer and this morning made a bootable installer on USB thumb drive which I have tested and works as hoped.

When Starting up with option key, picking the USB installer results in the Recovery window and from there I can access DU on the USB, Instal a fresh copy of Big Sur and/or restore data from an external source.

This combination of two data backups and a tool to restore or repair the OS seems like the best of both worlds for now and cost nothing.

 

[Lifeisabeach]

I did a little digging after it occurred to me that the M1 Macs may require a Thunderbolt drive to boot from externally. My backup drive has a USB-C port and is USB 3.1 compliant. Macworld has confirmed that a "native" Thunderbolt drive is required, but also says it has to be a "native" 3.1 USB drive. I'm a little confused since USB 3.1 isn't Thunderbolt also, but I know that a Thunderbolt cable is required to use Target Disk Mode. A USB-C cable won't work, even though the connector is the same. The article also mentions that the drive must be completely wiped in advance, and since mine has multiple partitions and I only erased the Backup partition, maybe that was the problem. But it could be a combination of that and not being a Thunderbolt drive. I'll try to experiment a bit sometime.

Now, this does raise a question. These systems aren't supposed to be bootable at all if the internal SSD fails as per the articles MacInWin shared, due to the presence of a cryptographically signed system volume. But if macOS is "properly" installed to an external Thunderbolt SSD, does that signed volume get created there also? If so, and being connected by Thunderbolt, it's as good as an internal drive as far as the connection goes, so maybe it would be bootable still in the event of a catastrophic failure of the internal SSD? Just spitballing, and maybe these questions have already been answered somewhere.

How to start up your M1 or M2 Mac from an external drive

Need to boot your M-series Mac with an external drive? It's not as easy as it used to be, as it likely requires you purchase new hardware.

www.macworld.com

 

[Rod]

Just in relation to what I said in my post #30. I may have been getting a bit hasty. I had a look at this article on; Apple MacBook Pro 2021 release date, price, specs and design
Amongst many other rumoured possibilities for the 2021 14" MBP it rumoured, "Kuo also reportedly said Apple will be ditching the OLED touch bar (replacing it with the traditional function keys), restoring the ‌MagSafe‌ charging connector, and opting for an even brighter display with mini-LED technology. Apple will apparently be adding more port connections such as HDMI and an SD card reader, so users will no longer have to be reliant on dongles and USB-C connectivity."
Now that sounds very promising to me. There is also the possibility there may be an Intel version as well as the M1X processor expected.

Hope springs eternal.

 

[Jim40]

I agree. And it's almost a given that Apple is not going to change the way the new machines are constructed.

With the built in security and SoC, it's near impossible to recover a dead machine without it going to Apple for replacement.

Why do you think Apple has decided to extend Apple Care + on an annual basis after the initial Apple Care + is over? Simply because they realize that these new machines need the level of expertise that only they can provide.

Obviously being in the US, the support provided there must be much better than Apple Support in the UK.

 

[chscag]

Obviously being in the US, the support provided there must be much better than Apple Support in the UK.

That's not true according to our many members who are in the UK. Actually, UK members have enjoyed a greater level of support regarding warranties and repairs than members here in the US or Canada.

 

[krs]

That's not true according to our many members who are in the UK. Actually, UK members have enjoyed a greater level of support regarding warranties and repairs than members here in the US or Canada.

Maybe because warranties in Europe are legally stricter thn in the US or Canada.
Minimum new product legal warranty there is two years as opposed to just one year here.

 

[Lifeisabeach]

So I've spent some considerable time trying to get my external SSD to boot Big Sur on my M1 MBA and nothing works. I've tried wiping the drive from scratch, then installing Big Sur clean. That install process actually prompted me to select an admin user off the internal volume and optionally transfer settings over. Despite doing that, no dice. I couldn't boot off of it, nor adjust the Startup Security Utility's settings to allow it. After this, I cloned over the Data volume using CCC, and again, no dice. This despite using a USB 3.1 enclosure with first a USB-C cable, then a Thunderbolt cable.

So from all appearances, it appears that you do indeed need a native Firewire drive to be able to boot an Apple Silicon Mac externally. I'm a little baffled as to why Macworld says a native 3.1 or 3.2 drive is required while also saying native Thunderbolt. They aren't the same. For reference, this is the enclosure I use. It's a 3.1 enclosure with USB-C.

 

[pm-r]

So from all appearances, it appears that you do indeed need a native Firewire drive to be able to boot an Apple Silicon Mac externally.

Which is an added confirmation for what they found here:

To create the external bootable drive, you will need a few things to get going. Firstly, you will need an M1-based Mac running on macOS Big Sur 11.1 or later, as earlier releases were problematic.

You will also need to have an external drive to boot from. As well as needing to be sufficient in capacity for your needs and fast, it also has to be compatible with the process itself, so you will need to use a drive that connects over Thunderbolt 3.

We need to stress that the process does require a Thunderbolt 3 drive to work, as you won't have much luck with one using USB-C alone. It seems that something is preventing it from working with USB-C drives on a technical level, but Thunderbolt 3 drives work fine.

How to boot an Apple Silicon Mac from an external drive | AppleInsider

If you have bought an Apple Silicon Mac or MacBook but need to upgrade your storage without buying a brand new device, you can set up your Mac to run from an external drive. Here's how to boot macOS Monterey using external storage on the new Mac lineup.

appleinsider.com

I wonder if they will get a solution for the problem soon as they did some years ago with any USB connect drives not being bootable. Gee, that doesn't actually seem to be that many years ago, but times go by fast when you get old and older...


- Patrick
=======

 

[chscag]

It does appear that from other anecdotes and information, that a native Thunderbolt 3 drive is required. Right now those drives (with sufficient capacity) are expensive. Perhaps as they become more common prices will come down.

I hate to say it but it looks like going from Intel to Apple silicon is more involved than it appeared to be on the surface. Much more so than when we went from PPC to Intel.

 

[Lifeisabeach]

It does appear that from other anecdotes and information, that a native Thunderbolt 3 drive is required. Right now those drives (with sufficient capacity) are expensive. Perhaps as they become more common prices will come down.

I hate to say it but it looks like going from Intel to Apple silicon is more involved than it appeared to be on the surface. Much more so than when we went from PPC to Intel.

Yeah, OWC does have some relatively affordable ones. They have the OWC Envoy Pro EX, which is "only" $219 for 480GB or $319 for 1TB for example. The one thing I don't like about this one is that the Thunderbolt cable is integrated. Cable goes bad, the whole thing is useless. I'm looking at the OWC Envoy Pro FX instead, which runs about $30 more for comparable capacities, but you can use your own Thunderbolt cable if you don't like the one that comes with it or need a longer one.