The demise of Bootable macOS Clones?

[Rod]

After updating Carbon Copy Cloner yesterday to the CCC 6 beta version I did successfully manage to create a bootable clone of Big Sur 11.3.1 using their Legacy Bootable Backup Assistant but I should have read the article published on the Bombich site first. No harm done but it's led me to review my backup plan into the future.

I have read various articles about Shirt Pocket's Super Duper beta being able to successfully clone a bootable backup of macOS 11.4 beta and I had assumed that Apple had made some changes to their Signed System Volume to allow the convenient old Bootable Clone system to continue but maybe not.

Here is the heading from Bombich's Knowledge Base article on CCC 6 beta:

"Copying Apple's system is now an Apple-proprietary endeavor; we can only offer "best effort" support for making an external bootable device on macOS Big Sur. We also do not generally recommend that users attempt to make their backups bootable — you can restore all of your documents, compatible applications, and settings from a standard CCC backup without the extra effort involved in establishing and maintaining a bootable device."

Here is the link to the full article: Creating legacy bootable backups of macOS Big Sur | Carbon Copy Cloner | Bombich Software

It appears, after reading that article (twice), that CCC will be unable to retain versioned backups of the user's data as well as a copy of the system into the future and even more so in the case of the M1. "Apple Silicon Macs will not start up (at all) if the internal storage is damaged or otherwise incapacitated, so there is very little value, if any, to maintaining a bootable rescue device for those Macs."

Sadly this predicts the end of an era. An era where we could keep an up to date macOS bootable clone able to run on another compatible device or step in to run your own device in the case of a fatal crash of an internal drive. My wife had one of those instances where the internal HDD died. She ran her 2011 MBP quite successfully from the clone for nearly three weeks before we obtained a new SSD which was installed blank and CCC reverse cloned it's contents back onto the new SSD giving her an exact up to date copy of the original drive.

Even if you use the Legacy Bootable Backup Assistant to create a bootable clone Bombich states, "The destination may not remain bootable if you subsequently update the data on the backup after applying OS updates to the source."

In my opinion this does not render CCC useless as part of a backup strategy. Even after my recent horrendous crash, the CCC clone could still have been used with Migration Assistant, I merely chose to take the opportunity to perform a "clean" install then selectively drag and drop the data I wanted from the clone.
What it does do is vastly complicates the repair and restore process for the novice user and relegates CCC to much the same status as Time Machine.

So on the next macOS update I will perform the "Standard" backup as described and in that way I will be able to maintain a Safety Net and should not need to erase my Samsung T5 SSD again in the immediate future.

 

[chscag]

Thanks Rod. However, I strongly recommend to continue making bootable backups as long as it remains possible.

When it comes time to let loose of my Intel machine and switch to a new Apple silicon iMac, I will change my recovery strategy.

In the meantime, I will also continue to use Time Machine in conjunction with CCC.

 

[chscag]

Just found this discussion over at MacRumors. Good info there regarding CCC bootable backups.

M1 Bootable Backups!

I saw that SuperDuper now supports bootable backups in Big Sur for Intel and M1 Macs! Please note; this is beta software AND the bootable backup feature on M1 Macs requires the Big Sur 11.4 beta. https://www.shirtpocket.com/blog/

forums.macrumors.com

 

[Rod]

Yes, I've been reading that too. Right now I'm downloading a new copy of the macOS 11.3.1 installer from the Apo Store. I found that Instal Disk X has been updated for Big Sur so I intend to make a USB macOS 11 Installer from it and keep a copy on my backups just in case.
I've been saved a couple of times now by these handy little devices when all else failed.

 

[Randy B. Singer]

From Shirt Pocket Software:

"Sound the trumpets!

"We're happy (and, frankly, relieved) to announce the immediate availability of SuperDuper v3.5 Beta 1: our first version to fully support Big Sur backups.

That's right: bootable Big Sur backups for Intel and M1. Today!"

Shirt Pocket Watch

 

[MacInWin]

Sadly this predicts the end of an era. An era where we could keep an up to date macOS bootable clone able to run on another compatible device or step in to run your own device in the case of a fatal crash of an internal drive. My wife had one of those instances where the internal HDD died. She ran her 2011 MBP quite successfully from the clone for nearly three weeks before we obtained a new SSD which was installed blank and CCC reverse cloned it's contents back onto the new SSD giving her an exact up to date copy of the original drive.

Yes, this is the end of that era. No matter what SD! or CCC do, the approach that the System-on-a-chip (SoC) as designed by Apple takes has the effect of making a "drive" failure into a full on system failure. If the SSD part of the M1 SoC dies, it won't boot. And for me, that was the value of a bootable clone. Just as your wife experienced, to be able to run from an external while waiting for a replacement drive to arrive. But if the SoC won't/can't run with a failure of the chip, then a clone is of lower value. Yes, there are some situations were a clone would maybe be handy (System corrupted, boot from external, restore the internal to recover it, for example), but you can do the same thing with TM now, so that value is minimal. Now, if Apple changes the approach to decouple the memory used for the "drive" from the rest of the SoC, then maybe clones will return to better value. But that decoupling could well impact the overall performance of the SoC, a sacrifice Apple is unlikely to be willing to make.

We'll see when the next "M" system is released. I'm not expecting much real change in architecture. I think cloning is dying as a valuable approach to backup.

 

[chscag]

We'll see when the next "M" system is released. I'm not expecting much real change in architecture. I think cloning is dying as a valuable approach to backup.

I agree. And it's almost a given that Apple is not going to change the way the new machines are constructed.

With the built in security and SoC, it's near impossible to recover a dead machine without it going to Apple for replacement.

Why do you think Apple has decided to extend Apple Care + on an annual basis after the initial Apple Care + is over? Simply because they realize that these new machines need the level of expertise that only they can provide.

 

[krs]

With the built in security and SoC, it's near impossible to recover a dead machine without it going to Apple for replacement.

I think that is rather ridiculous - storage fails and one is without a computer for a week or more in this day and age. The message re storage failure has always been - no if but when; and that doesn't change with an SSD.
Almost forces one to either have a duplicate Mac or keep the old one as a back up if it still works.

 

[MacInWin]

I think that is rather ridiculous - storage fails and one is without a computer for a week or more in this day and age. The message re storage failure has always been - no if but when; and that doesn't change with an SSD.
Almost forces one to either have a duplicate Mac or keep the old one as a back up if it still works.

Well, the tradeoff is the fantastic speed and performance of the M1 SoC when compared. That speed and performance comes from the tight integration that the SoC incorporates. But that tight integration leads to the challenges when that chip fails.

If you don't want the challenge, don't buy an M1 (or newer) Mac with the SoC. But then you give up performance. It's your call.

 

[Lifeisabeach]

It may be somewhat inconvenient, but I'm not fully grasping what the big deal is. Install macOS clean to the backup drive, then use CCC to clone the non-system components to it. Keep macOS updated on the backup the same way you do on the main drive. If the main drive fails, replace it; reinstall macOS using whatever means are available (Internet Recovery; downloaded installer while booted from the backup; etc); then clone back the non-system components. Yeah, it's a little extra work, but it's not a tragedy. Unless I'm just missing something completely here.

I haven't actually tried any of this, but I'd be glad to go through the motions for the benefit of those of you who don't have an M1 Mac.

EDIT: Bombich has instructions on how to make a data-only CCC backup bootable. This REALLY isn't that big of a deal.

Creating and restoring data volume backups - Bombich Software

bombich.com

 

[krs]

I don't follow you.....

It may be somewhat inconvenient, but I'm not fully grasping what the big deal is. Install macOS clean to the backup drive, then use CCC to clone the non-system components to it. Keep macOS updated on the backup the same way you do on the main drive. If the main drive fails, replace it.........

Isn't the basic issue that
a. You cannot replace the main drive on an M1 Mac since it's all part of the SoC, and
b. With the main drive failure on the M1, one can't even use the M1 to boot into an external drive

 

[krs]

If you don't want the challenge, don't buy an M1 (or newer) Mac with the SoC. But then you give up performance. It's your call.

I certainly don't need the extra performance -nice to have of course.
But unfortunately not buying a newer M1 Mac as you suggested will not be an option too far in the future if one is looking for a relative recent one.
We typically buy refurbished - one year old, two on the outside.

 

[MacInWin]

I don't follow you.....

Isn't the basic issue that
a. You cannot replace the main drive on an M1 Mac since it's all part of the SoC, and
b. With the main drive failure on the M1, one can't even use the M1 to boot into an external drive

I also don't follow. As @krs said, the real issue is that Apple seems to say that if the "drive" storage in an M1 system fails, the unit won't boot, so an external bootable drive is of no value to try to boot the dead machine. That's the price of a System-on-a-chip. When any part of the chip fails, it all fails.

 

[Lifeisabeach]

I don't follow you.....

Isn't the basic issue that
a. You cannot replace the main drive on an M1 Mac since it's all part of the SoC, and
b. With the main drive failure on the M1, one can't even use the M1 to boot into an external drive

Replace the SSD-only, replace the whole SoC... whatever. It's replaceable/fixable. But let's ignore that for a moment. If what you say is the basic issue, then why all the grousing about bootable backups?

 

[MacInWin]

Replace the SSD-only, replace the whole SoC... whatever. It's replaceable/fixable. But let's ignore that for a moment. If what you say is the basic issue, then why all the grousing about bootable backups?

It's all soldered onto the logic board, using surface soldering, so getting it replaced, while potentially theoretically possible, requires specialized equipment and the parts. Apple isn't selling M1 SoC parts, AFAIK. All of which means sending it back to Apple, who will probably just pull the logic board and replace it altogether.

As for grousing about bootable backups, the issue is partly that the Big Sur implementation of what is called "asr" is broken so what CCC and SD! previously used (asr) no longer makes the backup bootable, for the Intel systems that run Big Sur. So, there are two inter-related issues. 1) asr is broken, and 2) M1s are not bootable from external sources in any case. The first issue impacts the older Intel systems as well as M1, but solving that won't fix problem 2.

It's not really CCC's or SD!'s fault, it is a bug with Apple that they seemed disinclined to fix quickly and which will be moot when all new systems are the SoC architecture.

 

[Lifeisabeach]

It's all soldered onto the logic board, using surface soldering, so getting it replaced, while potentially theoretically possible, requires specialized equipment and the parts. Apple isn't selling M1 SoC parts, AFAIK. All of which means sending it back to Apple, who will probably just pull the logic board and replace it altogether.

Yes, so you have to replace the whole SoC to replace the SSD. Again, it's still replaceable. You just replace more than just the SSD in these cases.

As for grousing about bootable backups, the issue is partly that the Big Sur implementation of what is called "asr" is broken so what CCC and SD! previously used (asr) no longer makes the backup bootable, for the Intel systems that run Big Sur. So, there are two inter-related issues. 1) asr is broken, and 2) M1s are not bootable from external sources in any case. The first issue impacts the older Intel systems as well as M1, but solving that won't fix problem 2.

It's not really CCC's or SD!'s fault, it is a bug with Apple that they seemed disinclined to fix quickly and which will be moot when all new systems are the SoC architecture.

Yes, but you can still MAKE the non-bootable backup bootable. Apple has basically walled off the system files from the data files with APFS, so there doesn't seem to be a strong need for the traditional cloning method. Clone the data partition with CCC; make it bootable using the instructions they provide; done. It's effectively a full clone. Again, yes it's a little more work, but it's not a tragedy.

 

[chscag]

Yes, but you can still MAKE the non-bootable backup bootable. Apple has basically walled off the system files from the data files with APFS, so there doesn't seem to be a strong need for the traditional cloning method. Clone the data partition with CCC; make it bootable using the instructions they provide; done. It's effectively a full clone. Again, yes it's a little more work, but it's not a tragedy.

That works fine for Intel machines and is what most of us have been doing ever since Big Sur went live.

But how about the M1? Go ahead and try the same thing with your M1 and let us know if it works.

 

[MacInWin]

Yes, but you can still MAKE the non-bootable backup bootable. Apple has basically walled off the system files from the data files with APFS, so there doesn't seem to be a strong need for the traditional cloning method. Clone the data partition with CCC; make it bootable using the instructions they provide; done. It's effectively a full clone. Again, yes it's a little more work, but it's not a tragedy.

True for Intel, not for M1. And future Macs will be M1 or whatever is next, not Intel. It's that challenge that has me rethinking my backup strategy overall. In the M1 (or Mx) environment, a bootable external is useless because the system is not bootable fi the internal integrated storage fails. So a "regular" backup, like TM, will be more than sufficient. For me, what made CCC worth the price I paid for it was that if my internal drive failed, I could boot from the external and keep going while waiting for a replacement drive to arrive, swap out the drives, clone the external to the internal and keep going with almost no interruption. With the M1 systems, that sequence is no longer possible. You send in the dead machine, Apple fixes it, reinstalls the OS and sends it back. You restore from your backup (TM or whatever), and go back to business. With TM, there is no need to buy a third party product. That's all the discussion there is. I want to get a new MBP when they come out maybe this Fall, so I'm just thinking in advance of what to do. If CCC issues an upgrade but requires a new payment, I'll probably not bother with it because it can't do any more than TM does for the M1 systems.

 

[Lifeisabeach]

That works fine for Intel machines and is what most of us have been doing ever since Big Sur went live.

But how about the M1? Go ahead and try the same thing with your M1 and let us know if it works.

Follow their instructions for the M1. I posted a link to it. Here, I'll quote the relevant part (and I'll go ahead and actually do it):

Installing macOS onto a data-only backup
If your data-only backup resides on a non-encrypted APFS volume, you can install macOS onto the backup disk to make it bootable.

Apple Silicon Macs

1. Shut down your Mac, then power it on while holding down the Power button until the startup options are loaded
2. Click on the Options button, then click the Continue button
3. When Recovery has loaded, click on the WiFi option and join a WiFi network if your Mac is not connected to a wired network
4. Choose the option to Reinstall macOS Big Sur
5. Proceed to install macOS onto your backup disk

 

[MacInWin]

Follow their instructions for the M1. I posted a link to it. Here, I'll quote the relevant part (and I'll go ahead and actually do it):

I think we are not communicating. That process you posted works if the data on the drive is simply corrupted, or the system needs to be reinstalled, or your data recovered. But you can do that same process with a TM backup. For free. What does not seem to work is that the system will not boot at all if any part of the system chip is actually faulty, including the area used as storage (the drive). The process in that section assumes that the SoC is fine, it just needs to be reinstalled. If the SoC has a failure, that process won't work because it won't boot, period.