Obama-Biden vs. McCain-Palin

[louishen]

I don't underestimate that age group at all, but I do see that historically it has not significantly impacted an election. Ronald Reagan, Bill Clinton and Al Gore all motivated young voters (especially Clinton) but their impact was minimal as opposed to other age groups. There is always a first though.

As for being well informed, I know enough 18 to 25 year olds to know that much of their information comes from the classroom and not from making decisions on their own or finding things out for themselves. I realize that that is a generalization, so it's not applicable across the board by any means.

You need good politics / history teachers like I had. I went to public school (I mean the American meaning of public school) and our teacher was thought provoking and absolutely fantastic, teaching us to admire both the labour party (left) and the Conservative party (right)

 

[baggss]

You need good politics / history teachers like I had. I went to public school (I mean the American meaning of public school) and our teacher was thought provoking and absolutely fantastic, teaching us to admire both the labour party (left) and the Conservative party (right)

I would agree with you there. Unfortunately what you find in many US schools, especially here in California, is a definite bias in the High School and College level staff. As a result, the students are taught to think one way without giving the other side a chance. My oldest bought it all, but my youngest has been bucking that thought process. So far it has not hurt her, but I don't know how long that will last.

 

[Derek McNelly]

Brian Moore for me, all the way.

 

[Waterpolo820]

As for being well informed, I know enough 18 to 25 year olds to know that much of their information comes from the classroom and not from making decisions on their own or finding things out for themselves. I realize that that is a generalization, so it's not applicable across the board by any means.

Yea I guess I would have to agree with that... Most teachers at my school are Obama supporters, and all of the Gov teachers are Obama supporters too. So yes, most will vote for Obama. And there are only a hand full of students that would actually do research on their own... Me being one of them.. And the rest will vote for whom ever their parents are voting for... Or what the teachers put into their heads..

 

[Dysfunction]

I would agree with you there. Unfortunately what you find in many US schools, especially here in California, is a definite bias in the High School and College level staff. As a result, the students are taught to think one way without giving the other side a chance. My oldest bought it all, but my youngest has been bucking that thought process. So far it has not hurt her, but I don't know how long that will last.

It's not the bias I'm concerned with, as the parent of school age children (and one of them spent some wasted time in CA public schools, not that AZ's are any better.. probably worse really), it's the lack of history and civics education that seriously concerns me. Without these it's very easy to sway people.

 

[Waterpolo820]

Not sure if it was posted before, but here is an Article about McCain's choice.

6 things the Palin pick says about McCain:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/politico/12997

 

[baggss]

Interesting article but biased beyond belief. Their very first point shows their bias. They would have done better to bury that as number 6 and hope it slipped through the BS detectors. The comment about people finding him an "arrogant egotist" are humorous when compared to the Obama campaign posters that harken beck to fascist and communist propaganda of the past.

A much more (surprisingly) unbiased article by the usually left leaning NYT:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/31/us/politics/31campaign.html?_r=1&hp=&oref=slogin&pagewanted=print

EDIT: A good article about Palin from CNN of all places:

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/08/29/palin.bio/index.html

 

[Dysfunction]

Interesting article but biased beyond belief. Their very first point shows their bias. They would have done better to bury that as number 6 and hope it slipped through the BS detectors. The comment about people finding him an "arrogant egotist" are humorous when compared to the Obama campaign posters that harken beck to fascist and communist propaganda of the past.

A much more (surprisingly) unbiased article by the usually left leaning NYT:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/31/us/politics/31campaign.html?_r=1&hp=&oref=slogin&pagewanted=print

I'm pretty sure the Obama campaign didn't create those.

 

[baggss]

Nope.

http://obeygiant.com/post/obama

but they did like them:

http://obeygiant.com/post/check-it-out

 

[Aptmunich]

To be frank I'd rather have it this way than the other way around as the Dems have it. Being a "heartbeat" away is a much more comfortable margin than the inexperienced person actually being in charge.

Disagreed.
a) What foreign affairs experience did Bush have before becoming president (or before 9/11 for that matter!).

b) Have you heard her in interviews? She's clearly either out of her league or severely underprepared.

The strength of Obama's campaign and the fact that a first-term senator who is also black is capable of winning the nomination in an extremely conservative environment (as you pointed out, your "liberals" are considered "center" in europe) suggests he has some idea of how to run an organization.

 

[Dysfunction]

The DNC isn't really a 'conservative environment', neither is Obama extremely left wing, even for American politics. Other than that, I'd posit that there has really only been a few 'experienced' presidents when they took office and the only one that really comes to mind was Eisenhower.

 

[Kash]

For foreign policy, you're right, there are few Presidents who had any sort of experience prior to winning. Sitting on some sort of committee may look nice, and while I'm sure you get a ton of administrative experience, it's nothing like being in the military or the intelligence agencies. George H.W. Bush was the last president we had who had any real foreign policy experience seeing as how he served as CIA director. Before that would probably be Eisenhower, as Dysfunction mentioned.

However, experience in foreign policy shouldn't be that big of an issue, because that's what your advisers are for. You count on the Joint Chiefs, the intelligence agencies, and the National Security Council to provide you with all of the information and advice needed to make foreign policy decisions. The only way we can expect our President to have that level of experience is if we start electing high ranking military men, and I'm sorry, but I haven't seen too many generals or admirals interested in running for the position. Since we've got civilians to choose from, let's choose the one who exhibits good judgment, a person who knows how to parse the security briefings and make the right calls.

 

[baggss]

Disagreed.
a) What foreign affairs experience did Bush have before becoming president (or before 9/11 for that matter!).

b) Have you heard her in interviews? She's clearly either out of her league or severely underprepared.

The strength of Obama's campaign and the fact that a first-term senator who is also black is capable of winning the nomination in an extremely conservative environment (as you pointed out, your "liberals" are considered "center" in europe) suggests he has some idea of how to run an organization.

Regarding foreign Policy experience, that's not even half the big picture. What experience did Clinton, Carter or even Reagan have? Pretty much zero. What they did all have in common is experience in an Executive position, something that is likely far more important. What I find sad is that the ONLY one of the 4 in this race that has that experience (on a number of succeeding levels) is the most junior person of them all. The differences between legislative and executive positions are big but not insurmountable. If push comes to shove though I'd rather have someone with more experience in government than less, hence my suggestion that the Democratic ticket is backwards.

I don't consider the US to be in an extremely "conservative environment" at this point (remember, I said "by European standards). The Pendulum has swung the other way. You Europeans may view us a conservative by your standards but we are not by our own standards at this point. Running an organization is not all that complicated when you have dedicated people around you and the time is ripe. 8 years ago, he would never made it past Iowa and New Hampshire, even at his current level of experience and with dedicated supporters. Today, he has made it big. To bad he was not around to be paired up with Al Gore, that would have been a heck of a ticket.

Yes, I have heard her interviews but I don't consider them particularly alarming. She'll be coached and coached and either way, she'll draw the crowd she is intended to draw.

You count on the Joint Chiefs, the intelligence agencies, and the National Security Council to provide you with all of the information and advice needed to make foreign policy decisions.

To be frank, with their showing in the last 8 to 12 years, I'm not sure I would trust most of them either.

 

[Kash]

To be frank, with their showing in the last 8 to 12 years, I'm not sure I would trust most of them either.

Well our current President has shown a knack for surrounding himself with yes men, and with the number of generals and admirals speaking out against the administration, perhaps there's a reason for that.

 

[baggss]

Well our current President has shown a knack for surrounding himself with yes men, and with the number of generals and admirals speaking out against the administration, perhaps there's a reason for that.

Reagan did the same thing. Can you say Iran-Contra?

Intelligence is only as good as those who interpret, write and read it...

 

[Kash]

Hence my point of good judgment

 

[PapaNoHair]

Good find on those articles baggss - they were amazingly fair articles!

 

[eric]

palin scares me. from the little i've read, maybe more than bush jr.

i used to like mccain, not sure what's going on with him lately, he's acting like a dink, maybe it's his campaign people, or him losing his faculties, but he definitely seems different now than he was even just a few years ago. of course that's a gut feeling, i can't back it up objectively.

i do like obama's choice of biden - the one thing the dems have really lost on recently has been sticking to their guns - not creating a real vision for the party. case in point: john kerry; really, how did that happen? this time around, it feels right. there is actually some real experience there, not as governors, but really, how have governors worked out for us since, well, 1976 or so?

personally, and i'm not trying to start a flame war, if mccain is elected, we should have our independence revoked.

 

[baggss]

I find it sad that it's a long time member, a well respected one (not to mention the MOTM) who decided to lower the bar in this thread.

 

[eric]

it's as much opinion as most of the other comments in this thread - even those stating that Obama isn't experienced enough, which we hear over and over again from those that have that opinion.

making something out of it won't lessen any possible impact my words my have had either.