Obama-Biden vs. McCain-Palin

[Kash]

Nobody's giving them that choice (partial birth abortion was banned, in case you've forgotten and anything after birth is infanticide, aka murder). Oh, you're talking about a few cells following conception. I guess you could call that killing in the sense that you could also call using antibiotics as a form of killing (fighting an infection kills FAR more cells, but that's neither here nor there)

 

[budafied]

well up to what point do you support abortion?

 

[Kash]

The same limit as set by current law, by the end of the first trimester. Late term abortions should only be allowed if there was a medical emergency that endangered the life of the mother.

 

[budafied]

do you agree with this only because its the law?

 

[Kash]

No, it's because it's the right thing to do, and it just so happens that the law agrees

 

[budafied]

hmmm, fair enough, although we disagree.


It's nice I can have a sort-of debate without it blowing up.

 

[Kash]

I know why I support the right of women to choose an abortion, within the constraints of the law. The question remains, why is it that you hold the position you do? I could venture a guess, but I'd like to hear it from you.

 

[budafied]

I believe that their can only be two reasonable beliefs as to when life begins: birth or conception. Any other definition (based on trimesters or anything else) results in grey areas and is not definitive. I know multiple premature babies born 3-4 months premature who have grown to survive just like normal births. Because these babies survived despite not making it to full term and a normal birth, it seems that life does exist before birth, or at least a nine-month birth.

Last I checked, there are laws prohibiting murder in all 50 states. I don't think a woman should simply be given the choice whether or not to (IMO) kill her child. We have multiple laws safeguarding endangered species unborn babies. Are human lives not much more valuable than theirs? We also have laws that charge 2 murders for murdering a pregnant woman. These contradictions must be dealt with.

Sadly (IMO), it seems that most people have come to the realization that abortion is murder and simply do not care. They hold the agenda of women's rights far above the right to life.


PS - I am slightly Catholic too ;D

 

[budafied]

Also, I loved Palin's speech tonight!!!!

 

[Dysfunction]

if the choice is between those two, myself (also slightly .. more like lapsed actually.. Catholic) would have to choose birth. Not all births are at 9 months, actually most really aren't

 

[budafied]

They've actually done surgery to save babies in the womb prior to birth...its amazing

 

[Kash]

Your first statement is flawed. You state that because a child born 3-4 months premature can live a full life, that the fetus is "alive" in contemporary terms. However, this argument only applies to the third trimester. Show me a first or second trimester fetus that has survived after having been born and this argument holds water.

The laws of murder apply to humans who exhibit human qualities. There is no research that shows the ball of cells in the first trimester is remotely close to a fully "grown" human being in its ability to feel pain, display emotions, or exhibit any sort of cognition. As for the law that calls for a double homicide, we must look closer at the text of those laws. Do they apply to any pregnant woman, regardless of how far along she is, or does it apply to women who are well along? If the former, then yes, it is a contradiction that must be rectified.

Finally, we can't bind ourselves to the arcane belief of good and bad, left and right, black and white. Life is all about shades of gray, and the sooner we come to that realization, the sooner we can get past issues like these.

I'm not gonna touch the religion thing with a ten foot pole (I'm sure it's going to get ugly and one or both of us is going to end up with infractions )

 

[budafied]

A quick wikipedia scan on pregnancy shows the second trimester as compiling months 4-6. My ex-girlfriend's neice was born 15 weeks premature and is still kickin.

15 weeks premature would fall under your requested example by 3 weeks...

But i digress and will stop arguing. I have stuff to read for tomorrow's classes hahaha


btw: they have nudity on wikipedia? on the pregnancy page haha

 

[Kash]

I already conceded the second trimester. It was the first trimester I'm truly interested in, because that's where both the law and science stand in regard to abortion. If a fetus is not viable in the first trimester, then it's not fully human, and thus it is not murder.

Yea, I've got some reading to do too, but I can multitask

As for Wikipedia, you'd be surprised as to some of the stuff you can find on there

 

[Dysfunction]

yea, but it's really hard to count wikipedia as a valid research site

 

[budafied]

Just curious, but what were your thoughts on my dichotomy of conception or birth as beginning of life?

And after I see your response, i'm out for the night...

 

[Kash]

You're asking about whether the beginning of life is conception or birth? That's easy, it's conception. A zygote, regardless of the fact that it's just a single cell, is still life, just as a single celled bacterium is life. However, it's not a human, and you can't call it murder if it's not human. You kill a bunch of single celled bacterium, that's not murder, it's simply killing. Remember, killing and murder are two different terms and should be used appropriately.

Dysfunction, wikipedia is a great research tool as it provides you with a stepping stone to finding proper sources. All of those citations can be really useful.

 

[Dysfunction]

I'm aware of this However, citing wikipedia on a paper (at least at the U here) will cause you problems. I know it may not seem like it, but I do actually still possess a current copy of the MLA handbook, and use it pretty regularly.. despite my advanced age

 

[Kash]

Well duh

 

[xj6jaguar1985]

I REALLY REALLY REALLY wish Ron Paul would be president.
*Sigh*
He makes too much sense I guess though. ><
However since I am a conservative, I will be voting for McCain and Palin. As for Palin's experience - if McCain dies, do you think it really matters about Palin's experience? The President has a whole plethura of trusted people that advise the pres. ; for better or worse.
I like Obama as a person, he seems like he is a great guy. However I don't think the U.S. could undergo such drastic change like Obama preaches in such a quick time. McCain will be a great transitional president so a guy like Obama can really make changes in 2012.
Oh one more thing;
Bush is pro-life as well. Did abortion get overturned? No. Only partial birth abortions are now illegal. I am pro choice until after the 1st trimester. If you can't make up your mind by then, you're having the baby.
"You're asking about whether the beginning of life is conception or birth? That's easy, it's conception. A zygote, regardless of the fact that it's just a single cell, is still life, just as a single celled bacterium is life. However, it's not a human, and you can't call it murder if it's not human. You kill a bunch of single celled bacterium, that's not murder, it's simply killing. Remember, killing and murder are two different terms and should be used appropriately."
-I love your intelligence, Kash. What you said is exactly true.