iMac M1 Monterey running slowly.

[Randy B. Singer]

I just tested this. CCC appears to create a bootable clone and the system actually tries to boot from the "clone" but hangs up about halfway thru the boot process. It then halts and instead boots from the internal SSD. The same result I experienced several weeks ago.

Then I highly recommend that, for the good of all of us, you contact Mike Bombich and figure out what you, or the program, are doing wrong. He feels that his program can now reliably create bootable clones under Monterey. If it can't, or if users can't figure out how to do it using his product, he needs to know this and remedy the situation.

 

[MacInWin]

From my viewpoint, having an external clone backup is absolutely vital if your data and your work are important.

Randy, I would expand that to be having ANY backup is vital if your data and work are important! I agree the issue with clones is not that critical, but it is important to recognize the way a clone might be used is different now. I have both TM backups and clone backups of my M1 Mac and plan to keep doing that. I just plan to use the clone differently than before. Clones are useful, just in a different way. Now, if Apple can figure out how to separate the storage from the rest of the SoC (assuming they even want to do that), a bootable clone could go back to being the "emergency" system again like it was in the Intel days.

I think the developers of cloners may have to shift how they market their products before M1 failures start to happen and people are surprised that what they thought they had isn't what they really DO have. Maybe they can show a scenario like you suggested, where if a Mx Mac has a hardware failure, they can take the clone to another Mac, go through the change of boot drive (and owner), and then show that the clone will allow them to get back to work quickly.

In thinking about your scenario of taking the clone to another Mac and booting it there to get going again, I'm not sure of the relative value of doing that. In the Mx Mac, the interfaces are fast so that if you DO have a spare Mac, the Migration from the backup to the spare might be nearly as quick as the time it would take to set up the external as the boot drive and boot from it. I guess it would depend on the amount of data that would need to be migrated and the performance hit that comes from being booted from an external as opposed to the speed of the integrated storage. Plus the criticality of the work that may have been interrupted by the failure. Given that a dead Mx Mac requires a significant amount of work to get going again (much more than a drive swap used to take), it may end up just being better to use the spare Mac to replace the dead one and then let Apple repair the dead one (or just write it off and get a new replacement). Institutions with a large number of Mac users are going to have to think about how to support Mx Macs!

Ain't progress fun!?

 

[MacInWin]

I just tested this. CCC appears to create a bootable clone and the system actually tries to boot from the "clone" but hangs up about halfway thru the boot process. It then halts and instead boots from the internal SSD. The same result I experienced several weeks ago.

And by the way, this test was done with a clean Samsung T5 SSD.

I haven't tested using SuperDuper but suspect the same thing will happen.

I would be interested in hearing from anyone else in our forums if it works for them.

Charlie, did you run into the "owner" issue? Last Week on My Mac: The perils of M1 Ownership

Creating a bootable external disk with an M1 Pro in Monterey

Want to create a bootable external disk for your M1 Mac? Here’s how to do it in full detail, from erasing the volumes through to how to remove it safely.

eclecticlight.co

When you can’t restart an M1 Mac from an external disk

Assigning ownership to an external bootable disk doesn’t always work in Recovery mode on an M1 Mac. But there’s an easy workaround.

eclecticlight.co

 

[chscag]

Nowhere on Mike's site does he say that bootable backups (Intel machines) can be made when macOS Monterey is running. He clearly states that bootable clones can not be made with the new Silicon Macs.

His Blog specifically says that it works with Big Sur, and I agree. When I was running Big Sur, I could make a bootable clone backup.

Also, I would point out that SuperDuper likewise fails with Monterey the same as CCC. The clone will start to boot and then halts halfway through and reboots back from the Macintosh HD.

I will try to contact Mike via email to get clarification on this. But I suspect that the days of a bootable clone backup for an Intel Mac running Monterey is no longer possible.

As a matter of fact Mike stated in his blog that he was told by Apple that they would not allow the file replicator to copy system files.

 

[chscag]

Charlie, did you run into the "owner" issue? Last Week on My Mac: The perils of M1 Ownership

I read thru his article several times. Yes, you certainly can create a bootable external disk using his method. Lots of work though..

And no, I did not have a problem with the ownership issue as that I believe only refers to M1 Macs.

 

[Randy B. Singer]

Nowhere on Mike's site does he say that bootable backups (Intel machines) can be made when macOS Monterey is running. He clearly states that bootable clones can not be made with the new Silicon Macs.

My understanding, from all that I've read, is that changed just three weeks ago:

Carbon Copy Cloner 6/7 - Users Thread

"Back off man, I'm a scientist" (Bill Murray, Ghostbusters). Sorry, couldn't resist. I have sufficient evidence to convince me that CCC was part of the problem.

forums.macrumors.com

Dave Nanian at ShirtPocket (SuperDuper!) certainly is saying that SD! can do it:

"3.5 is fully compatible with Big Sur and Monterey, the latest releases of macOS, is Apple silicon native, and produces fully bootable HFS+ and APFS backups..."

Shirt Pocket

As a matter of fact Mike stated in his blog that he was told by Apple that they would not allow the file replicator to copy system files.

My understanding is that this is outdated information.

 

[Randy B. Singer]

Given that a dead Mx Mac requires a significant amount of work to get going again (much more than a drive swap used to take)...In thinking about your scenario of taking the clone to another Mac and booting it there to get going again, I'm not sure of the relative value of doing that. In the Mx Mac, the interfaces are fast so that if you DO have a spare Mac, the Migration from the backup to the spare might be nearly as quick as the time it would take to set up the external as the boot drive and boot from it.

I talked to Dave Nanian about that and he indicated that all that is necessary to boot from the external clone drive is to put in the admin password for the drive's creator. He said:

"You have to authorize against an admin user on the backup – you’re prompted to do so when you select the drive. The account should appear and you need to authorize with the password. "

 

[IWT]

I have been much impressed by the diligence and wisdom of those who have posted recently (Jake, Charlie & Randy in particular).

For a large majority of the rest of us, the complexities involved in using a cloned backup for recovery mean that a cloned BU has lost its place as a simple, straightforward tool.

Of course, it can apparently be done in certain circumstances for Intel Macs depending on the OS, but is much less of a utility for M1 Macs and, likely, their successors.

As many of our members struggle to understand Time Machine - how to set it up; how to recover data from it, and the dangers of tinkering with the file structure via Finder - asking them to read & understand the excellent, but complex advice from Mike Bombich or Dave Nanian which changes from week to week, is a challenge too far.

As a utility, cloned backups have lost much of their attraction.

A very personal opinion, obviously.

Ian

PS I shall continue to use mine, but fear the day it's needed

 

[Randy B. Singer]

As a utility, cloned backups have lost much of their attraction.

Yes, I was afraid all of this unnecessary overblown gloom and doom talk would scare folks away from creating clone backups.

I don't run Monterey. I don't upgrade to the most recent OS until I'm extremely sure that all the peccadillos are gone from it.

But from my discussions with Dave Nanian, it sounds very much to me as if, at this point, the only thing about clones (at least using SuperDuper!) that is much different is that they won't work with a dead M1x-based Mac. (But nothing will.) Otherwise they are still fully functional, easy enough to create and use, and **** near invaluable.

 

[IWT]

It's not scared me away. As I said, I shall continue to maintain mine. But, I was trying to speak for the many on our forum who just want things to work and have a hard enough time with minor hiccups, struggle to understand formats, how to use Time Machine and so on.

I should think, Randy, from the industry you and others have put into explaining cloning, that you would appreciate how perplexing this all appears to many of our members.

Long may you, Charlie, Jake et al continue to guide us. I suspect we shall need you a lot more in the future.

Ian

 

[pjhutch]

Try this article on removing Rapport : Trusteer Rapport Removal Tutorial - How to Easily Uninstall Trusteer Rapport (bad link removed)

 

[Randy B. Singer]

I should think, Randy, from the industry you and others have put into explaining cloning, that you would appreciate how perplexing this all appears to many of our members.

That's just it. I think that you've gotten bad information, and that creating a clone (at least as of a few weeks ago, and using SuperDuper!) is still extremely easy.

 

[MacInWin]

But from my discussions with Dave Nanian, it sounds very much to me as if, at this point, the only thing about clones (at least using SuperDuper!) that is much different is that they won't work with a dead M1x-based Mac.

And that is my entire point. Integrated storage (to NOT call it a "drive" and confuse folks) means that when/if the storage fails, the clone is of no use getting that machine going again. So, for an owner of a Mx Mac, clones are of less use than before. Not useless, just less useful. Before, you could have a dead drive but a working CPU and boot from the clone and be running in minutes. But now, if the "drive" portion of the System on a Chip dies, the CPU goes with it, so that clone isn't as much use. Only if you have a second Mac will it be immediately useful. So the use case for clones is different on a Mx Mac than it was on the Intel architecture.

Creating a clone of an Mx Mac may (or may not) be as easy as it was before, but the end result is still less useful overall. It has lost one of the key (at least for me) uses in that if the "drive" dies, it cannot boot the machine. That's not the fault of the developers, it's more how Apple has developed the architecture and boot sequence.

One use for clones which is not being used much at this point but which may become more useful down the road is to be able to change macOS versions for testing. When Monterey is replaced, it may be possible to either keep the Monterey clone and install the next version internally, or keep Monterey internally and install the new version to an external drive to test drive it. And as long as the hardware storage doesn't have any issues, that should still work. What will be key is how Apple will handle the "owner" permissions in that environment. One can hope they are going to be flexible!

But let me be clear, clones are still part of my backup strategy overall. Just not the same way. I don't think that's "bad information," just reality.

 

[Jonzjob]

Just to keep you in the picture.

I have now got a different 1tb HDD for my Time Machine. I have downloaded TMEditor and set it, I thought, to do just one backup a day. It is still telling me that the TM backup has failed as there isn't enough room on the HDD. When I look in Finder I find that there is just 50gig of space on the HDD. It appears that TMEditor is not operating. When I click on Apply I am told that 'Settings already applied'.



I will have to get on to AppleCare yet again tomorrow. I am certainly getting my money's worth out of it so far!

 

[MacInWin]

You want to turn TM OFF (Un-check "Back Up Automatically." TME will invoke TM at the interval set, then turn it off again.

EDIT: What does Disk Utility show on the new backup drive? Did you format it as APFS?

 

[chscag]

That's just it. I think that you've gotten bad information, and that creating a clone (at least as of a few weeks ago, and using SuperDuper!) is still extremely easy.

Extremely easy? I don't think so, but that's my opinion.

But, I'm not going to argue the point, rather let everyone who wishes to continue making a bootable clone backup from Monterey find out for themselves.

As for "bad information", that I will agree with you. There is a lot of information out and about (you linked to a MacRumors thread) that is contradictory.

I sent Mike Bombich a "help report" along with logs from CCC yesterday evening. His auto response received it and stated they will get back to me this coming week. I will publish what he says here in our forums to this thread or a new one.

 

[Jonzjob]

I have just turned the Auto off Jake. And yes to APFS plus




As I said before, I had read that it would possibly be better for the bells and whistles. I don't know any different I'm afraid. I had asked if there.

This thread seems to be getting mixed up with discussions over different cloning apps? and I am finding it even more difficult to keep my head on straight?

 

[MacInWin]

Well, according to that, something is taking up 950 GB on that drive. What does Disk Utility show?

I'm dropping out of the clone wars discussion, so that should die out. Let's focus on your backup.

 

[Jonzjob]

Thank you Jake. Your help is much appreciated mate!



And the system SSD



And Finder. I don't know if this is of any use. That's all of the folders showing on the TM HDD

 

[MacInWin]

One more question. Please click on the "View" button on the bar in Disk Utillity and select "Show All Devices" to show what is on the TM drive and the internal drive. With 750 GB on the internal drive, TM will very quickly fill up that backup drive if you have very many changes at all. General advice is to get a backup drive that is twice the size of the data being backed up. So, in your case, 1.5TB or 2TB would have been better size. But let's sort out what is going on. You certainly have more than 50GB the TM thinks is there.