Wow - I Just Found This

[daBee]

What is Apple doing? I just found this (System Preferences::Security & Privacy:rivacy::Input Monitoring) for games, Discord, Paradox (games) and Pixelmator. Why would they be doing this? This is crazy stuff.

Any input?

Cheers

 

[MacInWin]

Can you be more specific about what you think Apple is doing? If those three apps are in the "Input Monitoring" window of System Preferences it is because you authorized them to be there. Apple, by default, blocks access from one app keyboard inputs to the others.

 

[daBee]

How is it that this is even considered? Why would Apple allow a game to monitor what I'm inputting into my keyboard? How is it when I install an app on my iPhone, that it gives me the warning dialog box to "Ask them not to track other apps"? It seems Apple is complicit. Under no circumstance would I allow a game to monitor my work. I've never seen anything along the lines of the OS asking me of this.

 

[pm-r]

What is Apple doing? I just found this (System Preferences::Security & Privacy:rivacy::Input Monitoring) for games, Discord, Paradox (games) and Pixelmator. Why would they be doing this? This is crazy stuff.

I don't use any of the latest Apple Mac stuff but there is certainly lots of information on it with a web search on ""Input Monitoring" window of System Preferences" "Input Monitoring" window of System Preferences - Google Search and the fist top hit is Control access to input monitoring on Mac

It seems pretty clear that they are alerting the user as to what can be happening and how to prevent it if wanted or desired.

I don't think I would be very happy with any application poking its head around my imac to see what I might be doing thank you, but I guess that's where my LittleSnitch.app is set up on my iMac to let me know with the older macOS X version I prefer to use.

- Patrick
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[daBee]

If you get a Mac M1, the current standard, you have to start with current OS - 1. This should really be some allowance/compliance set by Apple indeed.

 

[Raz0rEdge]

There are legitimate reasons for allowing input monitoring if you have an application that is meant to be a shortcut helper that can paste things into ANY application. If that application is running in the background but you are sitting in TextEdit and enter the shortcut, nothing will happen. But with input monitoring, the shortcut application detects that you've put in a specific shortcut it knows about and will paste what you want into TextEdit.

I have Vox (a music player) installed and it has a helper application that does the same thing to control the application. It doesn't seem to want to use the default keyboard keys like Music/Spotify.

Either way, Apple made the functionality available to applications and the applications you have installed asked you for that permission and you gave that permission. What the applications do with the input data is covered by their privacy policy. Apple has nothing to do with that.

If you disagree with the privacy policy or whatever, just remove the app from the list to deny them access. Simple.

 

[daBee]

That still doesn't explain how games are listening to my keyboard when I'm doing things not related to gaming whatsoever. That's not functionality. That is a full breach of privacy. At no time did I give Apple the ability to start recording my keyboard for preferences set by the OS. And just to be clear, none of this is about clicking a box in a dialog box. My beef isn't about dialog boxes in the Privacy settings for my OS. If you think it's about clicking boxes, I've been doing it for decades.

Those applications did NOT ask me for those settings. At no point did I ever get the idea that my keyboard is recording everything to phone home to gaming companies. Why would I choose that? Why would anybody choose that? Apple has absolutely everything to do with that. This is not a Shortcut.

 

[MacInWin]

Nice rant.

But it's not up to Apple what YOU authorize or what YOU install. The default from Apple is that nothing has access to anything. If you migrated from an older system, or if you upgraded without a clean install, then the permissions in Privacy were whatever you had allowed to be installed in the past. So, those apps may not have asked for that permission, they just took it, and you allowed it, unknowingly, when you installed them and allowed them to run on your system. Now Apple has made it possible for you to see what apps are watching other apps so that you have information to make decisions on whether to allow that or not. You don't want your games to be watching you? The delete them. Or not, it's your call.

As Ashwin said, there is a valid reason for some apps to be listening, just now it's more obvious they are.

 

[daBee]

LOL. I install software, not authorize companies to sniff my keyboard when their app is on or off. Nice try though, and nice guess. I didn't migrate from an older system. There is no "unknowingly".

It should always be known what app is doing what. Not sure if you have any business experience, but this is a horrible policy that it's not asking. Being an apologist doesn't fix how Apple will anger their markets.

 

[MacInWin]

LOL. I install software, not authorize companies to sniff my keyboard when their app is on or off. Nice try though, and nice guess. I didn't migrate from an older system. There is no "unknowingly".

It should always be known what app is doing what. Not sure if you have any business experience, but this is a horrible policy that it's not asking. Being an apologist doesn't fix how Apple will anger their markets.

I'm struggling to understand why you think it's Apple's problem, or why Apple, in making it available to users to stop such activity, is going to "anger their markets." I was in software development for 40 years. I built my first home computer from chips, on a wiring board, ran TRS-DOS, CP/M, Warp OS, MS-DOS, Windows from 1.0 to 11, Unix, Linux, Aix and several other flavors of *nix, and OS X from Snow Leopard to Monterey. So, I am kind of familiar with how things go. Lots of stuff goes on in the background that most users have absolutely no clue about.

Some applications in the world use the authority we grant them when installing what WE want to install things THEY want. Should they tell us? Maybe, maybe not, it depends on what they want. But as for "unknowingly," it is definitely possible that in authorizing the installation of Discord, Paradox (games) and Pixelmator, they used your authorization to install keyboard watchers that may or may not be totally legitimate to their application. You never knew that they had done that because until now Apple had not developed the security system to report that (nor has MS for Windows or *nix, for that matter).

It is a bit like Carbon Copy Cloner, when first install and run under Monterey, reporting that it needs "Full Disk Access" to work properly, then shows how to grant it that access. If I don't want CCC to have "Full Disk Access," I don't have to do what they ask, but then CCC cannot do what I want it to do, which is to make clone backups. Before Monterey, CCC didn't have to ask because there was no security over "Full Disk Access" like there now is in Monterey. CCC is not alone, there are dozens of applications that need access to the things in the System Preferences/Security & Privacy area. It is up to each individual user how much trust they have in the apps they install. Not comfortable? Don't allow access! Now you have the option, where before you had none.

I'm not apologizing for Apple. I don't think they need to apologize for anything. I'm saying that your reaction to finding that Discord, Paradox (games) and Pixelmator were (are) watching your keyboard of blaming Apple for it is not valid because it is not a fault of Apple that they do that or that you authorized them to install on your system. But now you know a bit more about what they are doing, so you get to make an informed decision on whether or not you trust any of them.

 

[Raz0rEdge]

LOL. I install software, not authorize companies to sniff my keyboard when their app is on or off. Nice try though, and nice guess. I didn't migrate from an older system. There is no "unknowingly".

It should always be known what app is doing what. Not sure if you have any business experience, but this is a horrible policy that it's not asking. Being an apologist doesn't fix how Apple will anger their markets.

That onus is on the app developer isn't it? And as Jake correctly pointed out, Apple is tell you what things each app is doing, so you can make an informed decision to either allow the app to continue to have access or deny it. Some apps will explicitly ask for permission, some don't if they don't have to. Either way, that behavior is determined by the developers, not Apple.

And oh, don't for a single moment assume that any of us are being protective of Apple, none of us work for Apple but are just fans of their products. In most cases, like Jake, we are very technical people who've been doing this for a very long time and know how things work.

 

[pm-r]

And oh, don't for a single moment assume that any of us are being protective of Apple, none of us work for Apple but are just fans of their products.

Thanks Ashwin for your good and accurate summary even though I don't always agree with Apples direction or methods, for the most part they definitely attempt to look after the user of their products and the software they use as best as they can.


- Patrick
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[Rod]

The point here is that if you only ran native Apple applications there would be no problem. The Native Maps app must track you for obvious reasons as must Find My.... but the data is all in house and you don't have to use those apps or give them permission to track except when in use. It is our choice to add third party apps and give them access to whatever we choose.
There would be, for example, little point in denying system access to an anti malware app or denying a bluetooth connection to a media player. In the past we did not even have those options.
The App Store now divulges what data third party app can collect, the iPhone has "Allow Apps to Request to Track" off by default which mean all tracking requests are automatically denied unless you turn it on giving you again the opportunity to choose.
We can see what apps we have given permission to and when they are tracking us with the GPS indicator tool bar.
What we have now is a lot more disclosure, raised awareness and some options to choose from. Hardly a bad thing and certainly not complicity from Apple.

 

[Lifeisabeach]

LOL. I install software, not authorize companies to sniff my keyboard when their app is on or off. Nice try though, and nice guess. I didn't migrate from an older system. There is no "unknowingly".

It should always be known what app is doing what. Not sure if you have any business experience, but this is a horrible policy that it's not asking. Being an apologist doesn't fix how Apple will anger their markets.

LOL! Apple is GIVING you the option to block input monitoring on an app-per-app basis! This used to not be a thing... apps could do whatever they wanted once installed, AND YOU'D HAVE NO IDEA WHAT THEY WERE DOING! Not just on macOS, but Windows and others. I'm not even sure if blocking them on this level is even yet possible in Windows.

There are legit needs for some apps to monitor key input while in other apps. Something like Keyboard Maestro, for example, which can run macro commands with the press of specified key combos, has to be able to monitor for when those combos are pressed to be able to run. Third party text dictation software would be another. Discord, which you mentioned, may have a legit need for it if you are, say, playing a game and want to chat with other players who are also on Discord. You'd just press a key command that Discord would be looking for in-game to activate. I'm not super familiar with Discord, so I'm not sure if that is a thing. But anyway... the point is there are legit needs. The tools to fine tune WHICH apps would be ALLOWED to do it simply wasn't a thing in the past.

 

[pigoo3]

Before freaking out & making all sorts of privacy invasion claims...really a good idea to do a little research first...and find out what exactly is going on.

Here's a great place to start:

Control access to input monitoring on Mac

On your Mac, control which apps can monitor your keyboard, mouse, or trackpad.

support.apple.com

Here's a more in-depth article:

How macOS Catalina's New Security Features Work

macOS Catalina makes some major changes to security, bringing more permission prompts to your Mac. Here's what you need to know.

www.howtogeek.com

Here's a quote from the article:

"Input Monitoring refers to any text input that isn’t handled by the operating system, just like the “Allow Full Access” setting on iOS for third-party keyboards. This could help protect against keyloggers."

What may not be realized is...the ability of 3rd party apps to monitor keyboard inputs has probably been with us for a while...and this Security change (starting with macOS Catalina)...was actually a Security Improvement...NOT...an invasion of privacy by Apple!

Now users have greater control over what apps can & can't monitor keyboard input...where previously we had less control.

Nick

 

[Rod]

Just following on, Apple has just introduced App Privacy Repirt in iOS/iPadOS App Privacy Report, so you can't say they're not trying to provide disclosure.

How to Use App Privacy Report in the iOS 15.2 Beta

Apple in the iOS 15.2 beta introduced App Privacy Report, a feature that was first shown off at WWDC. App Privacy Report is designed to provide users...

www.macrumors.com

 

[chscag]

Check out the report on your iPhone Rod. You may find some very interesting entries.

 

[Rod]

I certainly will but I only upgraded last night. On activating it I got a dialogue saying a report would be generated based on usage within 24hrs so looking at it now there's not a lot of info, yet.
BUT one that really jumps out is app-measurement.com owned by Google. Seven quit varied apps from a medication reminder to TuneIn Radio media player have contacted this domain just today. All towards forming a profile of me.
Ever get the feeling were fighting a loosing battle?

 

[pm-r]

All towards forming a profile of me.
Ever get the feeling were fighting a loosing battle?

That all sounds very intriguing if not familiar as to some of the reasona I have used Little Snitch.app over the years.


- Patrick
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[Randy B. Singer]

Being an apologist doesn't fix how Apple will anger their markets.

You think that's bad? Did you know that Apple has an app on your Mac that *records* every single e-mail that you've ever sent?

It also records every single e-mail that you've ever received!

If you check the wrong box...it will send all of those e-mails, maybe tens of thousands of them, up to Apple's servers in the cloud! To be stored for who-knows how long!

If the app crashes, it sends a report about you and your Mac, and all of its settings, directly back to Apple!

OMG, I don't know how anyone can use a Macintosh computer with it harvesting of all of your private information like that!