new iphone 6

[fleurya]

If you try to use NFC with two cards close together, you get card clash - I have to carefully arrange the cards in my wallet to avoid this. I would challenge anyone to get a NFC read from my wallet when it is closed and I have 3 cards with NFC in close proximity to each other.

NFC is quicker, easier and cheaper than cash for retailers. It's been available for about a year here in the UK but now it's really starting to get traction.

I don't think that's a an issue relevant to this discussion since you'll just have the one NFC device, your phone, being used on a terminal. I suppose if your wallet is extremely close to the reader at the same time for some reason it would be an issue, but not really.

I didn't realize UK cards used NFC. I thought they just had the chip that the terminal accessed directly to read. Being able to wave your wallet like a phone does sound kind of handy, but as you mentioned, if you have more than one card (most people do) then it doesn't work well.

 

[vansmith]

I think it's interesting how so many people are trying to tear apart the secure nature of NFC payment with talk of working of sophisticated NFC sniffers, phone hacks, and finger print samples and duplicates.

A security group attempts to highlight the "major security risk for users of this smart technology" (source). There's a lot more of those.

I've read tons of stories about people proving Touch ID can be hacked, but not one story of it happening in the real world. Same goes for NFC payments. People need a little dose of reality and perspective here.

Real world, done in a garage.

Amen. As I mentioned previously, some people are just shockingly ignorant about payments and NFC, and it seems I can add "willfully ignorant" about Apple Pay's implementation.

NFC has been hacked and so many different people have written about it (source and source for example). I'm not sure why anyone thinks Apple has somehow secured a technology that has been, without question, shown to be inherently unsecure. On top of that, this is Apple - a company that's snail slow at responding to the few security breaches its experienced (Flashback/Java and iCloud for example). I'm not sure I'd be putting my faith in another insecure technology to manage my credit especially when that company is awfully slow at responding to security issues.

Catchup ?? No innovation ?? I don't think there would be many companies that could get all that jazz into a 6.1or 7.1mm thick device, for the biggest iPhone Dennis. That in itself I would call innovation.

Proof? Not much of the technology is ground breaking and it's hardly the thinnest phone on the planet.

 

[fleurya]

I'm not sure why anyone thinks Apple has somehow secured a technology that has been, without question, shown to be inherently unsecure.

If anyone believes Apple’s method is any more secure, it is a construct of their own imagination, because nobody is claiming that. Of course (and it shouldn’t need pointing out) nothing is 100% secure. What we’re talking about here is the degree of security. I for one think it’s more likely that a pickpocket will lift my wallet from my pocket, or I get mugged, than some cyber hacker getting into my phone and following me around to get a copy of my finger print to recreate.

That’s just me, but I imagine if you wanted to compare daily instances of pickpockets to daily instances of someone’s phone being hacked, you would quickly find that the old school method is far more likely.

I read one story on a blog where the blogger was trying to claim best way to keep your money safe was in hard cash. Personally, I think that is probably the least secure. Above all else, if someone, steals my credit card info and goes on a shopping spree, I don’t pay a dime for that loss. If someone steals my cash, it’s all on me!

Bottom line, it's at least as safe any a traditional credit card, if not more. And a lot of security and financial institutions that know more than all of us, think it's more secure. Since it's in their best interest to go with the most secure measures, I'll take their opinion.

 

[chscag]

And a lot of security and financial institutions that know more than all of us, think it's more secure. Since it's in their best interest to go with the most secure measures, I'll take their opinion.

My bank, Wells Fargo, put out a customer bulletin this morning stating that they had partnered with Apple in using the new iPhone 6 for all credit and debit transactions.

The current credit and debit cards issued by US banks and financial institutions are susceptible to fraud and duplication. The European banks issue credit and debit cards with an embedded chip which makes it more difficult to duplicate. This new system will actually be even more secure. The only drawback that I see is having to outlay for a new phone in order to use it.

 

[dbm]

I don't think that's a an issue relevant to this discussion since you'll just have the one NFC device, your phone, being used on a terminal. I suppose if your wallet is extremely close to the reader at the same time for some reason it would be an issue, but not really.

One of the sources of paranoia is that a person can walk up to you and read you NFC card in your pocket; my point was that this is impractical in reality as most people have multiple cards close together. With the phone it should be a completely non-risk as you need to touch the TouchID button before the response is sent.

NFC has been hacked and so many different people have written about it (source and source for example). I'm not sure why anyone thinks Apple has somehow secured a technology that has been, without question, shown to be inherently unsecure. On top of that, this is Apple - a company that's snail slow at responding to the few security breaches its experienced (Flashback/Java and iCloud for example). I'm not sure I'd be putting my faith in another insecure technology to manage my credit especially when that company is awfully slow at responding to security issues.

It was explained in the Keynote that the ApplePay process generates a single-use token for the transaction, and it is that which is sent via NFC. So it is irrelevant if the communication layer is compromised, as you can't use the intercepted information for a second transaction.

 

[TattooedMac]

It was explained in the Keynote that the ApplePay process generates a single-use token for the transaction, and it is that which is sent via NFC. So it is irrelevant if the communication layer is compromised, as you can't use the intercepted information for a second transaction.

And again in the link Chas posted

The app uses chip and pin technology, instead of the magnets that credit cards currently use, to keep information secure. The chip generates a one-time authorization code for each purchase and the pin is the unique number a consumer will have to tap into a retailer's credit card reader for each purchase. This technology is considered more secure than the magnetic stripe technology used on most credit cards.

Apple Pay trumps traditional credit & debit cards: MasterCard SVP - Yahoo Finance

 

[chas_m]

If anyone believes Apple’s method is any more secure, it is a construct of their own imagination, because nobody is claiming that.

I'm confused. Why do you say this (above) here, but contradict yourself later in the same post? "No one is claiming this" -- except every single partner Apple has teamed up with, as you yourself cite later.

http://www.macnn.com/articles/14/09....of.purchases.does.not.affect.purchase.price/

Bottom line, it's at least as safe any a traditional credit card, if not more. And a lot of security and financial institutions that know more than all of us, think it's more secure. Since it's in their best interest to go with the most secure measures, I'll take their opinion.

Exactly.

 

[chas_m]

The only drawback that I see is having to outlay for a new phone in order to use it.

You don't.

First, some merchants (perhaps many of those who also support Apple Pay) can, using the same terminals, also support an alternative NFC-based system being promoted by Walmart, Best Buy and others. This alternate platform is able to use an app-based system, so it works with android phones and older Apple phones etc.

Second, users of the Apple Watch can use Apple Pay without needing an iPhone 6. Such people can use the iPhone 5 or higher. Of course that means buying an Apple Watch, but I'm just pointing out alternatives. Merchants can and already do support multiple technologies in payment terminals.

 

[chas_m]

It was explained in the Keynote that the ApplePay process generates a single-use token for the transaction, and it is that which is sent via NFC. So it is irrelevant if the communication layer is compromised, as you can't use the intercepted information for a second transaction.

Hush now, dbm! VanSmith is far smarter than, say, MasterCard on what is and isn't secure! He has sources! Apple would never encrypt everything end-to-end, they're stupid!

Nevermind that he doesn't appear to know the details of how Apple Pay actually works, it's NFC! Its a security nightmare! Sources!!

As it's so easy to hack, I'm sure he'll be retiring from here soon, with all the easy money he's purloined from those hapless Apple Pay fools. Who could blame him? A child could do it!

http://www.macnn.com/articles/14/09....of.purchases.does.not.affect.purchase.price/

Bah! What does the Financial Times know!

 

[vansmith]

Sarcasm and passive aggression...yeah, that's not necessary. At no point did I make this personal and I'd suggest that you refrain from making personal criticisms when someone critiques the company that you, as you so often demonstrate, blindly follow. Let's keep to the argument/topic at hand now okay? Can you refrain from personal criticisms when people critique the company that you so dearly love?

I don't think having reservations about a wireless payment systems predicated on using a technology that has been hacked and has been developed by a company with molasses slow responses to security issues is wrong. If you disagree, so be it. Suggesting that being concerned about spreading my credit info across devices (let's consider my wallet a device here for a moment) is daft (by implication) just goes to show that you either have blind faith in Apple or don't actually care all that much about security.

And really, citing an Apple fan website as a source...? You know who has great reviews of Toyotas? toyotafannews.com.

Listen, I'm not arguing that Apple's system is more insecure than any other. In fact, I think all NFC systems are all susceptible to risks and from what I've heard, Apple has worked hard to secure their system in light of some of these issues. However, given what I've repeated numerous times about Apple's lethargic response to security issues, having some doubt about their commitment to keeping the info safe is a perfectly reasonable response. If you can demonstrate to me that Apple isn't going to "Apple up" their response to inevitable hacks of this system, I'm happy to concede that it's probably okay.

 

[chscag]

You don't.

First, some merchants (perhaps many of those who also support Apple Pay) can, using the same terminals, also support an alternative NFC-based system being promoted by Walmart, Best Buy and others. This alternate platform is able to use an app-based system, so it works with android phones and older Apple phones etc.

I think that will be decided by the issuer of your credit - whomever that might be. I mentioned above that my bank (Wells Fargo) has partnered with Apple. The way I read their customer bulletin is that they will require the iPhone 6 before allowing you to make payments via NFC. I might be wrong on that and it could very well be a Wells Fargo only requirement.

 

[chas_m]

And really, citing an Apple fan website as a source...?

The article is drawn from information in The Financial Times. Read the source article if you prefer, but it seems obvious you still haven't actually read up on the details.

http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/7ffa706e-3a63-11e4-bd08-00144feabdc0.html?siteedition=intl

And speaking of "fan" sites -- a lot of your "sources" have been fan sites. Just sayin'.

Listen, I'm not arguing that Apple's system is more insecure than any other. In fact, I think all NFC systems are all susceptible to risks and from what I've heard, Apple has worked hard to secure their system in light of some of these issues.

So why not just read the article and explain to all us plebians where the obvious flaw in Apple's setup is. My point -- which you still haven't addressed -- is that the issuers, banks and partners all seem to be under the impression that Apple's system is *more secure* than existing systems, including other NFC-based payment systems, chip-and-pin and of course the existing US-centric "mag stripe only" system. I would have thought that they would know more about this than you, but you keep inferring that the system isn't secure.

So now that someone has gone to the trouble of hand-serving you the details of Apple Pay that you could have easily looked up yourself, either point out where they've gone wrong or acknowledge what the financial institutions have said is correct. Stop injecting FUD based on "what you've heard" and actually read up on it.

 

[RustProofCorn]

"So no one told you life was gonna be this way *Clap Clap Clap Clap*"

OK on a serious note chas m are you saying the Apple watch is going to have NFC? So with my Iphone 5s would i be able to use apple pay via the watch? No taking my phone out of my pocket at all? If so that is cool man.

I originally was going to get a 6 or 6+ but i missed pre ordering (i had decided on the +) and I kinda lost steam from there.

I just don't know if there is enough WOW to want to buy it. Maybe once i get off the Rig in a few weeks i will change my mind. My 5s is only 6 months old. Its a 64gb and i am guessing since the new phone just came out i will lose quite a bit of my money. I paid 900 bones strait from apple for it so im thinking 450. That is a big chunk to lose.

Anyhow Van and chas are hilarious. I am sure to you two maybe not but it makes me laugh. In a couple weeks you guys will read these posts and laugh too.

 

[fleurya]

I'm confused. Why do you say this (above) here, but contradict yourself later in the same post? "No one is claiming this" -- except every single partner Apple has teamed up with, as you yourself cite later.

Details on Apple Pay revealed: 'safer' system, Apple gets 0.15 percent | MacNN

My response was to you comment where you said people believe Apple's form of NFC to be more secure, and that's what I was responding to. I'm not sure where you think I contradicted myself. I may have said it's more secure than traditional card systems, including magnetic strip and pin-and-chip, which is true. Also, the story you quoted to try to disprove me: it was also saying it's more secure than pin-and-chip, not rival NFC methods.

Although one could argue that a system that needs a fingerprint for payment verification is more secure than one that only needs a pin, which could be easier to obtain or guess (birthday pins, address pins and what have you) So, I would go as far as to say it could be more secure in that respect, depending on the stupidity of the user.

 

[chas_m]

I wasn't trying to disprove anything you said, I agree with everything except the idea (perhaps my interpretation of what you wrote) that "nobody" has claimed that Apple Pay (which is NFC-based) is safer than other systems" -- which would be untrue. You clearly understand this so perhaps I just misinterpreted the quote.

 

[chas_m]

OK on a serious note chas m are you saying the Apple watch is going to have NFC? So with my Iphone 5s would i be able to use apple pay via the watch? No taking my phone out of my pocket at all? If so that is cool man.

Yes. Tim mentioned during the keynote that Apple Pay is entirely built into Apple Watch as well, meaning you do not need an iPhone with Touch ID to use it. Here's the details on how that works:

Apple Watch Needs Skin Contact and PIN for Secure Mobile Payments | TechnoBuffalo

You do still need an iPhone 5 or later, but the skin+Pin system works without Touch ID.

I just don't know if there is enough WOW to want to buy it. Maybe once i get off the Rig in a few weeks i will change my mind.

In your case I would wait until you can test one in person at an Apple Store (so early next year) before buying. No reason to upgrade from an iPhone 5s that I can see unless you really need a bigger screen or really love the optimal image stabilization in the 6 Plus.

Anyhow Van and chas are hilarious. I am sure to you two maybe not but it makes me laugh.

Van's a great guy and a valuable asset to the Mac-Forums family. We butt heads on this or that but agree on lots of stuff too. I'm sure if we met in person we'd be good pals. I just (occasionally) find him blind to his own biases -- and over-critical of mine!

 

[RustProofCorn]

I tried to watch the entire Keynote but i am on a drilling rig right now where time and bandwidth is limited.

Thanks for the valuable information.

 

[Pasco08]

Apple is trying to catch up with Samsung and is now trying to enter the phablet market. Welcome to 2014 though most of the "new" features the IPhone 6 has are honestly not new at all.

 

[RustProofCorn]

Apple is trying to catch up with Samsung and is now trying to enter the phablet market. Welcome to 2014 though most of the "new" features the IPhone 6 has are honestly not new at all.

I am sure we will never see you again since your just a troll.

I kinda think it is funny you say in your post that Apple is playing catch up with Samsung entering the Phablet market (which is a new feature to Apple) and then turn right around and say their new features for the iPhone 6 are honestly not that new.

To me as far as the S5 is concerned it looks like Samsung may have taken a play out of Apples book. If your making a boat load of cash and it isn't broke why fix it. There is a S4vsS5 Comparison below.

Samsung Galaxy S5 vs Samsung Galaxy S4 - Phone specs comparison

 

[chas_m]

Apple is taking Samsung's poorly-implemented features (like the fingerprint sensor that almost never works) and doing them correctly -- and is now trying to recruit Android users to switch by making a large phone for people who have to compensate.

There, fixed that for you.