macOS Big Sur is Version 11.0

Joined
Sep 5, 2007
Messages
58
Reaction score
3
Points
8
Location
UK
The end of an ERA. From "Cheetah" to "Catalina" as OSX or as we now know it - macOS 10.X....

It's a good moment to get off the macOS bandwagon in my opinion. No 32-bit software now, no OpenGL games any more, no killer apps in my view since Boot Camp isn't long for this world and there are soon to be virtualisation issues with no license for the Arm version of Windows likely to be granted to Apple! What's the good news? :mad:
 
Joined
Jul 15, 2014
Messages
763
Reaction score
143
Points
43
Location
West Sussex, UK.
Your Mac's Specs
2021 iMac 24" M1 512/16/8/8 Sonoma. 2013 iMac 20.5" 3.1 i7 16GB Catalina. iPhone 13
What's the good news?
Well I have just learnt that my iMac probably won't run Big SUR but, what the ****, it's running Catalina beautifully and doing absolutely everything I need perfectly.

Now, for me, that is good news!
 
Joined
Sep 5, 2007
Messages
58
Reaction score
3
Points
8
Location
UK
This article explores the challenge of the transition to Arm really well:

https://appleinsider.com/articles/2...-arm-mac-is-going-to-be-a-bumpy-road-for-some

As winston2010 says in the comments below the article:

If I were Apple, I would make a x86 instructions compatible processor with ARM core. Modern Intel processors used the same technique with RISC-like core and x86 microcode.

It would seem to be the best course of action if Apple actually cared about Mac users! That is if that was a priority to them rather than just trying to consolidate all development under the iOS branch going forwards and having hyper-control over their product release schedule (both are Apple-centric concerns NOT user-centric ones :mad:).
 
Joined
Jan 1, 2009
Messages
15,510
Reaction score
3,871
Points
113
Location
Winchester, VA
Your Mac's Specs
MBP 16" 2023 (M3 Pro), iPhone 15 Pro, plus ATVs, AWatch, MacMinis (multiple)
@BigD, that approach would be the worst way to go. The ARM works well because it does smaller tasks very fast. That is what RISC means, Reduced Instruction Set Computing. But the reduction is NOT in capability, it's that each individual instruction is meant to be accomplished in one clock cycle, if possible. The CISC of Intel (Complex Instructing Set Computing), allow, in fact demands, that any given instruction will take more clock cycles to complete the complex task. I've heard some instructions take up to 12 clock cycles to complete. But in CISC, if you need ONE of the outcomes of the instruction set, you have to wait for ALL of them. RISC allows a developer to get just what is wanted, faster.

So, what does a developer of applications have to do to make the change? Just recompile the source code for ARM. That's it. Boom. The new binary will use the RISC instruction set instead of the Intel CISC set. In fact, Apple announced that for a while, Xcode will create binaries that have BOTH and which will run on either, so a developer would build the Application in Xcode, compile and end up with a binary set that is good for both kinds of CPU. Eventually, the developer may decide to drop Intel CISC and recompile, but that is, for the foreseeable future, up to the developer. I suspect that at some point after Apple declares the final Intel machine as obsolete and no longer supported, Xcode will stop producing Intel code, but that's out in the future a few years, at least.

The better way to get what you seem to want (Intel compatibility?) is for Apple to create software to emulate the Intel CISC instruction set, which is what the announced Rosetta 2 is supposed to do when the ARM systems start to arrive. No reason to bastardize the ARM chip with some clone of the Intel instruction set, if Intel would even license Apple to do that. I'm not sure why supporting MS Windows is a key concern for Mac users, and the article says only 2% installed BootCamp to do so. I needed Windows to do a printing function for my wife's business because the printer company for the unique printer we needed didn't support Macs, so I ran Parallels to get Windows for my printing, but now that the printer is gone, I don't run Windows, or Windows programs, for any reason at all. If Parallels had not existed, I would have plunked $300 for an "el cheapo PC" to do the printing. However, there is not much stopping MS from compiling their source code for an ARM system, if they think there is a market for it. They have actually already done it, according to reports. MS even has a webpage for support of Win10 on ARM. Companies like Parallels can continue to develop emulators to run virtual systems in an ARM environment, although the performance of those emulations is probably going to be severely impacted because right now virtual systems can be given direct CPU access to run CISC instructions but in an ARM system the emulator is going to have to intercept all of those CISC calls and convert them to ARM RISC calls.

From my perspective all of the lathering up over the move to ARM is overblown hyperbole.
 
Joined
Sep 5, 2007
Messages
58
Reaction score
3
Points
8
Location
UK
@BigDThe better way to get what you seem to want (Intel compatibility?) is for Apple to create software to emulate the Intel CISC instruction set, which is what the announced Rosetta 2 is supposed to do when the ARM systems start to arrive. No reason to bastardize the ARM chip with some clone of the Intel instruction set, if Intel would even license Apple to do that. I'm not sure why supporting MS Windows is a key concern for Mac users, and the article says only 2% installed BootCamp to do so.

That 2% actually get to run modern games and specialised apps. My Steam account gets far more use on my Boot Camp partition and Cuphead is the only game I've played on the Mac in the last 6 months! The iOS apps are not the big pull that Apple thinks they are for desktop / laptop users and x86-64 apps are far more interesting. Streets of Rage 4 on its own has made the Boot Camp feature my nominated killer app for the lockdown!

CISC or RISC it makes no difference as it's the applications that are important in the end!
 
Joined
Jan 1, 2009
Messages
15,510
Reaction score
3,871
Points
113
Location
Winchester, VA
Your Mac's Specs
MBP 16" 2023 (M3 Pro), iPhone 15 Pro, plus ATVs, AWatch, MacMinis (multiple)
@BigD, that's fine that the 2% get to run games and specialized apps, whatever they are. But it's still 2%. Apple is focused on the 98%. If you are a gamer, the best way to go is to get a purpose-built game machine with all the bells and whistles. Nothing wrong with that at all.

On the other hand, if Steam and Cuphead think there is sufficient market in that 2%, they can recompile for ARM and you will be good to go. Apparently they don't think it's worth it, as they have not created a macOS version.

And your last sentence makes my point exactly. And app makers just need to recompile for ARM.
 
Joined
Sep 5, 2007
Messages
58
Reaction score
3
Points
8
Location
UK
@MacInWin
On the other hand, if Steam and Cuphead think there is sufficient market in that 2%, they can recompile for ARM and you will be good to go. Apparently they don't think it's worth it, as they have not created a macOS version.

StudioMDHR, the developers of Cuphead are an exception as there is a great Mac version (they're obviously good little boys and girls developing for the Metal 2 API as instructed by Tim Cook and the Apple Overlords ;-)). I meant that is the only game on my macOS partition that I've fired up in the last 6 months! Previously Bioshock, Starcraft 2 and an odd shot of Angry Birds were in common use on macOS in amongst video editing and Photoshop duties.

Now I'm one of the 2% Windows Boot Camp users for the majority of my gaming needs! I cannot currently justify an aging PS4 (although a Ultra 4K Blu-ray enabled PS5 would be nice) so the Boot Camp partition has been a blessing in regards to all the PC new retro-style titles that have come out recently! Sonic Mania, Streets of Rage 4 and even an overlooked sequel to the late 90s Amiga RTS game Napalm called 'State of War' have all been getting active service on my tiny PC partition.

Since there is virtually no consideration given to backwards compatibility in the macOS world, I also find that a large proportion of my creative work has to be carried out on my 2nd macOS partition under Mountain Lion (aaaaghhh... only two partitions are officially allowed, does not compute kernal panic ;-))!

What progress that you are expected to throw out your perfectly good software every 2 to 5 years because of feature creep that you could happily do without! This is just the day in the life of an Apple user and the Arm faff is one bridge too far. Premiere Pro would undoubtedly work better on a cheaper Windows laptop. Although the 16" Macbook Pro looks really nice with upgraded thermals for the first time in forever, I can't see that it is future proof with the 'Arm storm' coming.

Sad but true that Apple have drunk their own Kool-Aid once too often and without Jobs to course correct and John Ive to pull out the 'Gadget Jewellery' magic I can't see that the share holders will be pleased with the Mac's performance never mind the 'Pro' users or the gamers they pretend do not exist :cry:
 
Last edited:
Joined
Jan 1, 2009
Messages
15,510
Reaction score
3,871
Points
113
Location
Winchester, VA
Your Mac's Specs
MBP 16" 2023 (M3 Pro), iPhone 15 Pro, plus ATVs, AWatch, MacMinis (multiple)
I don't game, so most of what you posted is greek to me. If you don't like what "Tim Cook and the Apple Overlords" are doing, get rid of your Mac and get a PC. As for shareholders, AAPL sure is in trouble (not):
Screen Shot 2020-07-09 at 1.13.56 PM.png
But we can agree to disagree. I'm actually looking forward to ARM as I expect Apple to get it right, as usual.
 
Joined
May 21, 2012
Messages
10,745
Reaction score
1,193
Points
113
Location
Rhode Island
Your Mac's Specs
M1 Mac Studio, 11" iPad Pro 3rd Gen, iPhone 13 Pro Max, Watch Series 7, AirPods Pro
Some people prefer to use the right tool, for efficiency. Not a multi purpose tool, that is only adequate.
 

krs


Joined
Sep 16, 2008
Messages
3,555
Reaction score
610
Points
113
Location
Canada
I don't game, so most of what you posted is greek to me. If you don't like what "Tim Cook and the Apple Overlords" are doing, get rid of your Mac and get a PC.

My opinion as well.
 
Joined
Sep 5, 2007
Messages
58
Reaction score
3
Points
8
Location
UK
My opinion as well.

I'm glad you think that Apple can throw away these perceived to be 'little niche' markets at will to concentrate on the casual consumer market. In the past the 'Pro' and 'Creative' markets were to be nurtured and fought for because the casual consumers were falling away in the the mid-90s! Heck Apple even tried to help Bandai enter the gaming market with the Pippin!

How Apple apathy and elitism has trumped common sense! Gaming on the Mac WAS a thing and Feral Interactive and Aspyr made a business out of porting big name titles and the Intel switch and option to use the OpenGL API helped matters immensely! Now Apple are going backwards in my view with custom chip solutions reminiscent of the old Commodore Amiga MOS / CSG in-house fab. products that gave the Amiga a massive multimedia boost in the beginning but at the expense of third party software development support that the PC enjoyed. And again, software is king!

Yes, battery life will be amazing, yes iOS apps will be available out of the box and yes products will be updated at regular predictable launch dates but if minimal third parties get excited enough about the customisation and efficiency achievable with Apple Silicon versus the increasing number of hoops to jump through to invest in this 'customisation' then we'll be back to the times of Prince of Persia and Bungie's Marathon with not much in between. But I guess that's ok for you until Apple stops caring about your niche and says you have to make do with an iPad Pro alike machine?
 
Joined
Sep 5, 2007
Messages
58
Reaction score
3
Points
8
Location
UK
...get rid of your Mac and get a PC.
Up until the Arm announcement Macs WERE PCs! Now that Apple are pushing in the direction they are we will have to come to terms with the fact that Macs are glorified iPads with up-specced CPUs and built in keyboards! They were fine as 'top of class' PCs in my view but yes Tim Cook & co know best and yes my custom is worth nothing to them because I am not a slave to either their software distribution model (App Store) nor a slave to annual upgrade cycles! I'm free and I 'Think Different'!

I say, call out the pompous bloated mega-corporations when they get too big for their boots and today sadly that applies to Apple!
 
Joined
Sep 30, 2007
Messages
9,962
Reaction score
1,235
Points
113
Location
The Republic of Neptune
Your Mac's Specs
2019 iMac 27"; 2020 M1 MacBook Air; macOS up-to-date... always.
I'm glad you think that Apple can throw away these perceived to be 'little niche' markets at will to concentrate on the casual consumer market. In the past the 'Pro' and 'Creative' markets were to be nurtured and fought for because the casual consumers were falling away in the the mid-90s! Heck Apple even tried to help Bandai enter the gaming market with the Pippin!

How Apple apathy and elitism has trumped common sense! Gaming on the Mac WAS a thing and Feral Interactive and Aspyr made a business out of porting big name titles and the Intel switch and option to use the OpenGL API helped matters immensely! Now Apple are going backwards in my view with custom chip solutions reminiscent of the old Commodore Amiga MOS / CSG in-house fab. products that gave the Amiga a massive multimedia boost in the beginning but at the expense of third party software development support that the PC enjoyed. And again, software is king!

Yes, battery life will be amazing, yes iOS apps will be available out of the box and yes products will be updated at regular predictable launch dates but if minimal third parties get excited enough about the customisation and efficiency achievable with Apple Silicon versus the increasing number of hoops to jump through to invest in this 'customisation' then we'll be back to the times of Prince of Persia and Bungie's Marathon with not much in between. But I guess that's ok for you until Apple stops caring about your niche and says you have to make do with an iPad Pro alike machine?

Funny how you think this is all about the casual consumer market. The reality is that x86 performance has stagnated. Creatives and other professionals are STARVING for a platform that pushes processing performance forward so they can do more amazing things faster. Yes, this isn't just about battery life but also computing power. Think about it. The latest iPhones outperform in many metrics modern laptops and desktops. Just what do you think will happen when that gets scaled up to a workstation? If these upcoming ARM-based Macs perform at a level that outstrips even the fastest x86 platforms by as little as 10%, developers of professional software will be tripping over each other to get on board.

You are also condemning the platform before you've even seen it in use. Or know all the ins and outs. Attitudes like that are what stagnates technology. You want to stay in the past? Have at it. Your reasons are yours and may well be perfectly valid. The rest of us are moving forward, and we do so knowing and accepting that some things may break. That's how progress works.
 
Joined
Sep 5, 2007
Messages
58
Reaction score
3
Points
8
Location
UK
You are also condemning the platform before you've even seen it in use. Or know all the ins and outs. Attitudes like that are what stagnates technology. You want to stay in the past? Have at it. Your reasons are yours and may well be perfectly valid. The rest of us are moving forward, and we do so knowing and accepting that some things may break. That's how progress works.

Fine, I agree that if Intel really have stagnated in terms of performance permanently then yes I can see a need to push things forward another way. But I don't think that it IS the major factor here! Vertical integration and total control over the thermal characteristics of their machines will mean they can control product releases and not have to worry about the sort of thermal design effort that they put into the 16" MacBook Pro recently! Hackintosh machines can be swatted off; no more Intel clone machines embarrassing the 'Pro' line showing up their expensive wheels and over priced rack mounted editions! And they won't have to bother updating Boot Camp drivers ever again (Q. Did they ever update the Boot Camp drivers?).

Control, profit and more control. That is all it was ever about in my view.

“Some people say, "Give the customers what they want." But that's not my approach. Our job is to figure out what they're going to want before they do. I think Henry Ford once said, "If I'd asked customers what they wanted, they would have told me, 'A faster horse!'" People don't know what they want until you show it to them. That's why I never rely on market research. Our task is to read things that are not yet on the page.”
- Steve Jobs

... and Tim has deemed that we want iPad Pros with seamless access to iOS apps with ever thinner 'casual' machines with longer battery life. And once we all own one the developers are then supposed to get in line to port over their apps. Once the consumers vote with their feet (and why wouldn't they as they're thinner with bigger batteries ;)) no one is supposed to care about the old Intel Apps, the less features the new machines have, the fewer games / apps available and the sudden lack of freedom. The 'Iron Curtain' around the 'Walled Garden' will no doubt come crashing down around the Mac ecosystem (or IPad Pro 'Mac Edition' as it will be) forcing App Store purchases only in the future! It's like the 1984 Mac advert but Apple are the bad guys! It's screwed up but you can see the day coming :(!

People won't care that we used to be able to upgrade our own Ram, Hard Drives etc, you know like computers!
Question: Why will we sleep walk into this future?
Answer: Because it will all "just work" and Uncle Tim knows best doesn't he?!!

Keep taking your joy! (Mac Gamers will get the reference but hey they don't exist do they :censored:)
 
Last edited:
Joined
Aug 30, 2009
Messages
156
Reaction score
12
Points
18
Location
Anchorage, AK
Your Mac's Specs
15" MacBook Pro (Late-2011), 2.4 GHz Core i7, 8GB RAM, 750GB HDD
They have actually already done it, according to reports. MS even has a webpage for support of Win10 on ARM. Companies like Parallels can continue to develop emulators to run virtual systems in an ARM environment, although the performance of those emulations is probably going to be severely impacted because right now virtual systems can be given direct CPU access to run CISC instructions but in an ARM system the emulator is going to have to intercept all of those CISC calls and convert them to ARM RISC calls.

From my perspective all of the lathering up over the move to ARM is overblown hyperbole.

The Surface Pro X is running a Qualcomm ARM-based processor, as is the Lenovo Flex 5G and the Samsung Galaxy Book S. The issue is that the apps have to be recompiled for ARM, and Microsoft has nothing even remotely close to Rosetta for developers to use. That's why a lot of people who have purchased those machines are experiencing software incompatibility issues.
 
Joined
Aug 30, 2009
Messages
156
Reaction score
12
Points
18
Location
Anchorage, AK
Your Mac's Specs
15" MacBook Pro (Late-2011), 2.4 GHz Core i7, 8GB RAM, 750GB HDD
Up until the Arm announcement Macs WERE PCs! Now that Apple are pushing in the direction they are we will have to come to terms with the fact that Macs are glorified iPads with up-specced CPUs and built in keyboards! They were fine as 'top of class' PCs in my view but yes Tim Cook & co know best and yes my custom is worth nothing to them because I am not a slave to either their software distribution model (App Store) nor a slave to annual upgrade cycles! I'm free and I 'Think Different'!

I say, call out the pompous bloated mega-corporations when they get too big for their boots and today sadly that applies to Apple!

So the Surface Pro X, Flex 5G, and Galaxy Book S are all glorified iPads that happen to run Windows 10?
 
Joined
Sep 5, 2007
Messages
58
Reaction score
3
Points
8
Location
UK
So the Surface Pro X, Flex 5G, and Galaxy Book S are all glorified iPads that happen to run Windows 10?

It waits to be seen if Apple can ramp up their Apple Silicon to workstation level tech. I doubt that will ever be their priority as they know they'd have a hard time getting 3rd parties to optimise their heavy lifting video editing / 3D rendering apps to make use of this niche 'Pro' level custom Arm hardware. Adobe for example are not the best and are definitely not the fastest at this sort of optimisation task. I don't expect that Apple will want to compete in that 'Mac Pro' niche beyond the life of the current Mac Pro line. It's a dead end for Apple Workstations IMHO but with more control of their margins by having an in-house CPU / GPU source they'll keep the profit nice and high on the glorified iPad Pro 'Mac Edition' machines. Since these will more than likely fly off the shelves for the hipster market it's $$$ and job done but RIP for useful 'Pro' Macs at that point. :(
 
Joined
May 21, 2012
Messages
10,745
Reaction score
1,193
Points
113
Location
Rhode Island
Your Mac's Specs
M1 Mac Studio, 11" iPad Pro 3rd Gen, iPhone 13 Pro Max, Watch Series 7, AirPods Pro
It waits to be seen if Apple can ramp up their Apple Silicon to workstation level tech. I doubt that will ever be their priority as they know they'd have a hard time getting 3rd parties to optimise their heavy lifting video editing / 3D rendering apps to make use of this niche 'Pro' level custom Arm hardware. Adobe for example are not the best and are definitely not the fastest at this sort of optimisation task. I don't expect that Apple will want to compete in that 'Mac Pro' niche beyond the life of the current Mac Pro line. It's a dead end for Apple Workstations IMHO but with more control of their margins by having an in-house CPU / GPU source they'll keep the profit nice and high on the glorified iPad Pro 'Mac Edition' machines. Since these will more than likely fly off the shelves for the hipster market it's $$$ and job done but RIP for useful 'Pro' Macs at that point. :(
It seems that you have Apple's plan already road mapped out for them. But that's what you're here for.
 
Joined
Sep 5, 2007
Messages
58
Reaction score
3
Points
8
Location
UK
It seems that you have Apple's plan already road mapped out for them. But that's what you're here for.

What I expect them to do (outlined in my post above above) and what I want as a consumer seem to be diverging at a exponential rate. So in all honesty I expect in 2 years time that a Sony PS5 and a sub £1000 PC laptop running Adobe Premiere Pro will probably suit me better than an iPad Pro 'Mac Edition' dolled up to look like a proper computer! The 'Mac' will by then in all probability be a 'computer' with no user upgrade potential, an enforced App Store 'Walled Garden' and no ability to dual boot Windows to play games and use specialist apps like during the Intel era!

It's quite frankly disappointing that Apple think that it is progress to continue cutting out features (we salute you MagSafe, any useful port that isn't USB-C and physical function keys that don't crash requiring a reboot) while not cutting prices to suit! The new Mac Pro and 16" MacBook Pro were a step in the right direction in functionality but now no one is going to invest in them because of the CPU ISA shift! That inevitable lack of sales will give Apple another excuse to likely cull the 'Pro' models in the not too distant future! :cry
 
Joined
Jan 1, 2009
Messages
15,510
Reaction score
3,871
Points
113
Location
Winchester, VA
Your Mac's Specs
MBP 16" 2023 (M3 Pro), iPhone 15 Pro, plus ATVs, AWatch, MacMinis (multiple)
That inevitable lack of sales will give Apple another excuse to likely cull the 'Pro' models in the not too distant future! :cry
But what do you care about that if
a Sony PS5 and a sub £1000 PC laptop running Adobe Premiere Pro will probably suit me better
is true? Just move along from Apple, get your Sony and cheap laptop with Windows and move on. Nobody is forcing you to stick with Apple.
 

Shop Amazon


Shop for your Apple, Mac, iPhone and other computer products on Amazon.
We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon and affiliated sites.
Top