Cold start vs reboot

[MikeFromMesa]

What are the system differences after a cold start and after a normal reboot?

I have a 15" MacBook Pro (Mid 2018, i9, Monterey) which I recently did a system reinstall on to clean out the system. It is setup to work in clamshell mode with a BenQ monitor and it normally works just fine. I have not had any problems with it except for some rather strange functionality after a cold start. For me that means every morning because I normally shut down the MBP at night. When I start it in the morning I notice three quirks. One is that the mouse does not work until I do a click on it, the second is that the bluetooth keyboard (Logitech, not the Apple keyboard) is not connected until I do a couple of keypresses and the third, and the annoying one, is that some of my apps don't display properly.

I have several photo editors on my MBP, including the Nik apps, and 2 (and only 2) of them don't display properly after a cold boot. They open, but without any controls being displayed. If I then do a restart all of the problems, including the mouse and keyboard, go away and I have a normal display of the same app that did not display and controls. I have attached screen shots of the apps but you may have to click on the images to expand them to see the differences.

I assume this has to do with some differences with the system state after a cold start and after a restart, but I don't know what those might be or how to fix this issue. Any help would be appreciated.

 

[IWT]

This article linked below may help. About half way down, you'll see:

"Restarting a Mac computer isn’t the same as turning the computer on and off, which completely resets it. If you really want to make sure that your computer starts up correctly, turn it off, wait a few seconds, and then turn it on again. If you’re in a hurry, try restarting your Mac, and if that doesn’t fix the problem, you’ll have to turn it off and on again."

How to Restart a Mac Computer | dummies

Explore the three options you have for rebooting or restarting a Mac desktop or laptop. Restarting is the first basic troubleshooting step when a Mac slows down or refuses to run a program.

www.dummies.com

Ian

 

[IWT]

In addition to my post above, and in no way trying to be facetious, why shut your Mac down each night?

I think it is fair to say that most of us leave our Macs running more or less 24/7; or sleep them. As far as I know, there is no advantage to complete shut down each night.

And perhaps a reboot once a month?

Ian

 

[MikeFromMesa]

In addition to my post above, and in no way trying to be facetious, why shut your Mac down each night?

I think it is fair to say that most of us leave our Macs running more or less 24/7; or sleep them. As far as I know, there is no advantage to complete shut down each night.

And perhaps a reboot once a month?

Ian

I suppose I shut down the MBP at night because I used Windows machines for a long time and they needed to be reset regularly. I suppose I am still doing it out of habit and, perhaps, to save the power needed to run it at night.

Leaving it on would solve the problem of having to restart it every morning after booting it up, but would still leave me with the question about what is going on that is causing this.

 

[IWT]

still leave me with the question about what is going on that is causing this.

Yes, indeed. I'm aware that I have sidestepped that issue .

After the reboot, it has taken you to the app or window that was open when you initiated the reboot. This would be because "Reopen windows when logging back in" was checked.

When you Shut Down and Restart, for some reason the apps/windows are not displayed properly.

That's the best I can offer. What I would suggest is that when you Reboot or Shut Down your Mac, you uncheck the "Reopen...." so that when the computer comes to life again whether from a Restart or from a Shut Down, none of the previous apps or windows appear and you can open these as you require them

Ian

 

[MikeFromMesa]

Yes, indeed. I'm aware that I have sidestepped that issue .

After the reboot, it has taken you to the app or window that was open when you initiated the reboot. This would be because "Reopen windows when logging back in" was checked.

When you Shut Down and Restart, for some reason the apps/windows are not displayed properly.

That's the best I can offer. What I would suggest is that when you Reboot or Shut Down your Mac, you uncheck the "Reopen...." so that when the computer comes to life again whether from a Restart or from a Shut Down, none of the previous apps or windows appear and you can open these as you require them

Ian

Oh, I turned off the Reopen Windows setting on my system a long time ago, so that is not what is happening here.

The app opening that I posted in the screen shots were opened manually. One of the things I keep wondering about is whether or not this problem would still exist if I trade in my current MBP for one of the new M1 machines. That is, if there is something unique going on on my MBP, and perhaps due to my having done a clean install of Monterey, or whether I would see this problem if I got a new MBP as well.

I am curious, but probably not enough to spend the money to find out ...

 

[chscag]

I'm not familiar with "Viveza 3" and how it acts when opening after a restart. However, the problem with the mouse and keyboard especially if they're not Apple BT devices is not unusual.

It's debatable whether a cold start vs a warm start (wake from sleep) places any more wear and tear on your machine, however, most users here and elsewhere seem to prefer the wake from sleep method.

Your other question regarding trading in your current machine for a new M1X MacBook Pro not only involves a substantial outlay of dollars, but also whether or not all your current software is compatible. Most developers have gotten on board and updated their apps for the M1X machines.

 

[MikeFromMesa]

Your other question regarding trading in your current machine for a new M1X MacBook Pro not only involves a substantial outlay of dollars, but also whether or not all your current software is compatible. Most developers have gotten on board and updated their apps for the M1X machines.

Yes. It is the cost that has prevented me from trading in my current MBP for a new M1 machine. It would be about $1300 (including tax and AppleCare, and the MBP trade in) and that seems like a lot to replace a machine that is not only working properly, but is still very fast due to the i9 chip and the 32GB of RAM I upgraded to when I bought it.

It looks like about half of my photo editing apps are Universal and it does surprise me that some of these big companies have been so slow in upgrading their products for the Mac, but then again perhaps the Mac market is small compared to the Windows market. I just don't know.

I may just put my computer to sleep at night instead of shutting it down. I will see how that works.

 

[Slydude]

I wondered whether this might be a software issue as I read the thread. I'm not familiar with the apps giving you problems, but I doubt that getting a new Mac would solve your problem.

Do you have another user account on your Mac? If so, try running the software from that account and see if the problem persists. If it does, that suggests the issue is some software conflict in your primary account.

I think the same test could be run by booting in safe mode, but someone more familiar with that can give you better advice.

 

[MacInWin]

Monterey changed the boot process quite a lot. And the difference between a cold boot, where every process has to be checked and verified against the system as stored in the Secure Enclave, and a reboot, where it's already been checked, it just needs reinitializing, is very different. So the attached devices may be attached much faster on a reboot than a cold boot. I don't know about why your software works differently on the two, I've never seen that happen. That is bizarre.

I have my MBP set to just darken the screen and not to put the CPU to sleep. I find that is the most reliable way to keep things going. Here is the setting in System Preferences/Battery/Power Adapter:

 

[pm-r]

In addition to my post above, and in no way trying to be facetious, why shut your Mac down each night?

Leaving it on would solve the problem of having to restart it every morning after booting it up, but would still leave me with the question about what is going on that is causing this.

Would it really make that much of a difference if you actually knew of all the reasons to cause the problem that we're going on???

I may just put my computer to sleep at night instead of shutting it down. I will see how that works.

I'd say that would be a good plan to try and possibly save extra work and time. Good luck.


- Patrick
=======

 

[MikeFromMesa]

Would it really make that much of a difference if you actually knew of all the reasons to cause the problem that we're going on???

Yes, of course.

If it was something on my system I could try to fix it, and if it was something in OSX I could file a bug report and Apple could at least think about fixing it.

I think it is almost always better to know so something can be fixed than to just ignore it hoping it will go away.

 

[MacInWin]

If it was something on my system I could try to fix it, and if it was something in OSX I could file a bug report and Apple could at least think about fixing it.

You have a non-Apple keyboard and monitor and two third party apps that aren't doing what you want. I think you would maybe get better results if you talked to the non-Apple vendors about why their products don't handle cold starts properly. Apple may or may not care about Logitech's issues. Ditto for the non-Apple software. Not that it isn't a real problem, it's just unlikely to be addressed by Apple.

 

[MikeFromMesa]

Apple may or may not care about Logitech's issues. Ditto for the non-Apple software.

The problem is not related to either my non-Apple keyboard or my non-Apple mouse. It is a problem that appears when my system powers on from shutdown. It also happens with my Apple keyboard and my Apple trackpad, so it is a system problem, not a peripheral problem.

As for whether the problem is an Apple problem or a vendor problem is not what is at issue here. The issue is to find out what the problem is and report it. As to whether or not Apple cares to fix the problem, that is their issue. They still should be informed about what the problem is. If a software company does not know that they have a problem they can not fix it. Even if they know they may still not bother to fix it, but then the issue resides with them.

I think that as a general rule knowing is better than not knowing.

 

[MacInWin]

Ah, hidden information appears! So the issue appears exactly the same with your Apple keyboard and mouse? That's very curious because it doesn't happen here. The only difference I see is that on a Cold boot my BT Apple mouse doesn't attach until log in, whereas on a wake up the mouse is attached. But that makes sense to me because the various BT drivers are triggered AFTER the login process and then stay loaded through the sleep/wake process. I think the same happens for the trackpad, but I use the mouse more and haven't noticed how the trackpad connects and works.

So it may, or may not, be a "system" problem. It could very well be something in YOUR system that is causing the behavior. Have you experimented with a "clean" user account? Or Safe Mode?

 

[MikeFromMesa]

So the issue appears exactly the same with your Apple keyboard and mouse?

No. I was referring to the issue involving the software that does not work properly. That problem is the same regardless of whether I am using Apple hardware or not, not the keyboard and mouse issue.

> It could very well be something in YOUR system that is causing the behavior.

And that is exactly what I believe the problem to be. I have always assumed it was something unique to my system, perhaps due to the clean Monterey install I did.

> Or Safe Mode?

Yes. One of the first things I did to try to solve this problem was boot the system in Safe Mode to see if the problem still occurred, and it did not. That was the reason I removed the software that I thought was causing the problem, but now the problem occurs with every cold start and disappears with every restart.

That was the reason I originally asked what the differences were between a cold start and a reboot.

 

[MacInWin]

OK, that's good information to know. There are differences in the two starts. For now, let's ignore the third party software and concentrate on the keyboard and mouse. I have the MBP in my profile and an Apple Magic Mouse and an Apple trackpad. I don't have a keyboard, but the devices DO use BT the same as your system, so they may be closely enough related to compare. As i said, when I cold boot, the mouse is NOT seen by the system until after the login process is complete. In fact, it starts to function about the time my login items start to appear. So, in your system I would not expect the mouse to be responsive until after the login boot items start to appear, or load. On the other hand, when it wakes up the mouse is instantly there and ready to go. You may have roughly the same thing, but the Logitech drivers (and the interface it uses, which I think is NOT the internal BT but some dongle they provide?) may not be fully active until that keypress or mouse click/movement. The Apple stuff should be "alive" shortly into the login of a cold boot, as I said.

Now, back to the software. From your description, it looks like they are NOT properly loading right after a cold boot. I presume you have them in your login items for your account, which may not be the best way to start them up. I'm not familiar with the product, but it may be launching and trying to display before the system is finished with the last steps of cold boot. If it is, then it's a problem for the developer of the application to put in the pauses/delays needed to allow the system to fully boot and execute all of the other items in your login before trying to display the menus. You may have to remove the apps from the login items and launch them manually. If you let the system get settled from the cold boot before launching them, they SHOULD perform as they do after a wake up. I note on my system that Outlook is very quick off the blocks to get going, but the login screen hangs up behind the other items on my login list and doesn't appear until a few seconds after things settle. Not a problem for me, I have other logins to do before the Outlook one, but it's a noticeable difference. Could be the same for these applications, but they don't recover well, like Outlook does for me.

Not much help there, I'm afraid. I am one of those who recommend just leaving the Mac running and not doing cold boots unless you have to. And doing that will make the problem disappear.

If you want to continue to experiment, you could do a full backup, then a nuke'n'pave full erase/install of the OS and then reinstall just one application at a time to see which one triggers the strange behavior. That would be a massive ton of work for not much gained, I would think, but if curiosity is killing you and you have the time, it would allow you to find what is triggering the strange behavior.

 

[pm-r]

If you want to continue to experiment, you could do a full backup, then a nuke'n'pave full erase/install of the OS and then reinstall just one application at a time to see which one triggers the strange behavior. That would be a massive ton of work for not much gained, I would think, but if curiosity is killing you and you have the time, it would allow you to find what is triggering the strange behavior.

And maybe spend hours and hours and crossed eyes going over and comparing the various Console logs in an attempt to get to the actual answer.



- Patrick
=======

 

[MikeFromMesa]

> I presume you have them in your login items for your account, which may not be the best way to start them up.

I do not. In fact only the NTFS driver starts automatically. Everything else has to be started manually, and I did that on purpose since I thought the issue might have something to do with having them auto start at login.

Also my system is setup to do an automatic login, and so when I start the apps that are giving me this issue it is well after the auto login has completed and, in computer time, that makes it forever after the login. More than enough time for things to settle down.

Out of curiosity I will turn off the auto login so I can do a manual login after a cold start and see if that makes any difference, but that will not be until tomorrow morning.

> If you want to continue to experiment, you could do a full backup, then a nuke'n'pave full erase/install of the OS and then reinstall just one application at a time to see which one triggers the strange behavior.

I might do that if that is what it takes to solve this problem. Over the years I have done so many clean OS installs that one more will not make much difference.

The software issue (I don't really care about the keyboard and mouse issues and only mentioned them to be complete) annoys me not because it causes me a lot of work. Restarting the system after a cold start only takes about 30 seconds and since I do this when I get up I am doing other things while the start takes place anyway, so it doesn't bother me at all in terms of the extra work. The fact is that it bothers me because it should not be happening and because I don't know why it is happening.

I suppose it has to do with all of those years when my job was to find and solve these kinds of software problems, but then I had the code and normally a dump file and I could search through the code and dump to find out what went wrong. Here I have neither and not knowing what the problem really is is probably what is bothering me the most.

 

[MikeFromMesa]

And maybe spend hours and hours and crossed eyes going over and comparing the various Console logs in an attempt to get to the actual answer.

Yeah. But then I am retired so I do have plenty of time, although I am not really all that interested in going through console logs. I just figure that the software should have gotten smart enough to just fix the issue on its own. I mean, I keep hearing about all of the AI advances, so where is the artificial intelligence when I need it?