Terrorists strike again

[Graphite]

First of all.... I don't see our soldier's being ordered to strap bombs to their bodies and attack crowded markets where women and children are. Death happens in war... civilians get killed sometimes... But our troops are not aiming for them... Certainly not to the degree that the terrorists are.

Second, I don't have to "buy into" the idea that the Arab community hates us just because they do........ Go pickup a copy of The Holy Qur'an and read if for yourself. It CLEARLY endorses and CALLS FOR the destruction of all infidels (people who don't believe what they do.) As well as promises rewards to those who carry it out. This is part of the whole thing that I don't understand why the media ignores. Their religion... the base of their idealistic beliefs states it clearly.

Also, your list of evidence doesn't even come close to the list of vicious attacks that have been carried out on a day to day basis by these terrorists towards countries like Israel... America isn't perfect... There are always two sides to every story... But to say that we are somehow even in wrongdoing... Not even close.

Sigh* So bad I want to say, I can easily dismiss all of your arguments.. but then you would say "yeah right", and so.. ill just skip to it now.

Alright, so they are a little bit poor at modern reasoning, but it is what they believe to be the best attack, strap a bomb and run headlong into a group of people. We however have a much more humane way by saving one of our own to hold a gun while we send an unmanned bomb into the heart of a city.

Civilians DO die, we don't say were aiming for them, its not like the terrorists are bombing your house, they are taking out major economic places or HQs. They go at a couple suicide bombs at a time. We just drop a load of bombs on the whole city, but first we tell everyone who is a civilian to get inside and take cover.

Its a little funny, america has done a ton of attacks on a lot of countries in the middle east. It is true it is very impossible for america to keep up with the bombing rates that the terrorists can provide, but that is only when you group all the terrorists to one group. There are tons of terrorist groups, and if you combine all the 'non terrorist' groups together (us, brits, russia, etc) we would out weight the terrorists in sheer numbers of kills.. Im sure US alone have more kills.

big "second' just kinda calls for an argument. It calls for the death of infidels but lets be honest, the bible says a lot of things also.. we don't always follow them all. their book is just the same. Did you know they have a group of people called the 2%ers? they only follow a little bit of it. Also I don't see any islamic people in the united states killing off their classmates. That is because to them we are not infidels. We are only infidels to half of the islamic world because we made ourselves so. we could have tried peace and not got involved, let them take care of their own problems, we are not the world police.

Israel is makings its own attacks right now also. The word terrorist all depends on which side your on.

No point to war. Neither of us are good. Both sides have poor goals.
Look at it like this it may help you understand it. Say you slap your sister in the face, and she hits you back, and she hits you again so you grab her hands and keep her at bay till she calms down. We just slapped the middle east in the face for about 50 years and they just hit us back, so now were holding their hands with our invasion till they calm down.

I like how you just ignored 2/3s of my post and the 2 posts after mine. LOL.

But sorry, We are done with this topic. You provide no sources, and provide poor reasoning that does not convince me you know what your talking about.

Do not comment on this again. This topic is done, I will close this.

 

[sarahsboy18]

So what you are saying is... "I get the last word and there is nothing you can do about it." Ok.

 

[Graphite]

yes, that is correct. I did add some to the post that may help you understand it more.

 

[crazycanadian]

dont close the thread, sarahboy18 has a right to still speak

 

[Graphite]

duly noted. Fine, go ahead. None of you have provided anything to make me think that killing is good, and we don't kinda deserve it. (no one deservers to die, but as a whole, we deserve to be punched in the face and called naughty.)

 

[sarahsboy18]

Thanks Canadian.... but no need. Although the timing is unfortunate for my side of the arguement... LOL.... I agree with Graphite that is time for this discussion to end... We are here at this forum to discuss Apple stuff and this thread is for offering our feelings towards the people of London right know. Not to pursue our personal worldviews... I apologize if I overstepped that.

 

[dstopsky]

We are here at this forum to discuss Apple stuff and this thread is for offering our feelings towards the people of London right know. Not to pursue our personal worldviews... I apologize if I overstepped that.

Thank you. This is why I made the comment earlier in the thread to suggest no one speculate or accuse until all of the information is clear. I thought this thread was for condolences to fellow Londoners affected by the attacks? While I whole-heartedly believe that debates like these are necessary and healthy for us to learn, this thread really isn't the place.

 

[Tel]

I have to agree with Graphite here, while I in no way agree with what happened, I can at least see past my own opinion and see this from their side.

You may believe that what America is doing can be justified and there is no excuse for them to use terrorism to kill innocent civilians but consider that these people (the terrorists) are quite ignorant, they have no education and are not informed about all of the facts. These people come from an Iraq that was led by a man who induced so much propaganda into these people that they are much more susceptible than us. Its the fault of certain people over there who take advantage of these people and convince them that its their duty to fight in a holy war against their oppressors.

Also, one of the reasons why they strap bombs to themselves is because they have no training at all, they have no form of coordinated attack and are pretty ineffective with small arms. If they were to face us head on they would loose miserably, so one man dying to kill a group of others is pretty good odds for them.

I also agree that this thread is getting somewhat off-topic and should perhaps be split by a moderator.

 

[edgefusion]

It's interesting that when America gets attacked everyone is full of sympathy and condolences, but when London gets attacked, ****, we deserved it!

 

[MacAddikt]

--------- Incoming Moderator Message --------------
Notice: This thread was split from the other thread due to the tangent arguments that have skewed from the original topic. Flame on!
----------------------------------------------------------

 

[dstopsky]

I have to agree with Graphite here, while I in no way agree with what happened, I can at least see past my own opinion and see this from their side.

You may believe that what America is doing can be justified and there is no excuse for them to use terrorism to kill innocent civilians but consider that these people (the terrorists) are quite ignorant, they have no education and are not informed about all of the facts. These people come from an Iraq that was led by a man who induced so much propaganda into these people that they are much more susceptible than us. Its the fault of certain people over there who take advantage of these people and convince them that its their duty to fight in a holy war against their oppressors.

Also, one of the reasons why they strap bombs to themselves is because they have no training at all, they have no form of coordinated attack and are pretty ineffective with small arms. If they were to face us head on they would loose miserably, so one man dying to kill a group of others is pretty good odds for them.

I've been biting my tongue and not getting involved in this whole debate, but I thought it was necessary to clarify a few mistakes.

1) The people who committed these acts of terrorism ARE highly trained and qualified, and have spent many months, probably years, planning for just one single, co-ordinated attack. An untrained person could not co-ordinate the 4 bombs throughout the city. And it has not yet been determined if the bombs were remotely detonated or from suicide bombers.

2) Some people believe that the method of suicide bombing would not hold up against brute force. Wrong. The suicide bomber sends a much stronger, clearer message to the world than the anonymous pilot who flies above and drops a bomb. Why it's so effective is because it garners sympathy, obviously not from all, but from those who see how these people feel so hopeless that they are willing to sacrifice their lives for their cause. I don't want to argue whether it's right or wrong to do it, because we all know it isn't right, but you have to admit it's a much more influential message, either way you interpret it.

3) It has not been confirmed yet where the London attacks came from, so please do not label it as Iraqis. All that is known, unofficially, is that the European Al-Qaeda Jihad is laying claim to these attacks.

4) Please do not confuse what is happening in Israel with what is happening in London, New York, Madrid, etc. While all incidences may use similar techniques of suicide bombing they are completely different. Israel is a conflict over one issue, and one issue only: Jerusalem. The entire conflict is centered more specifically to the Temple Mount, where King Solomon's Temple supposedly lies underground (which is the holiest of places for Jews) and where above ground is the Dome of the Rock and a number of mosques (which is the holiest of places for Islam). Both sides want control of it and both believe they have legitimate claim to it. Regardless of who's right or wrong this is a land issue. All of the other issues, such as occupation in Gaza and the West Bank are side-effects of the conflict.

5) Please point out where the Koran says to kill infidels? The prophet Mohammed actually told followers of Islam to respect the peoples of the book (that means Jews and Chrisitians). Pagans are truly the ones considered "infidels."

6) The last thing I must say is that if people take the attitude of grouping all Arabs and Middle-Easterners as terrorists it is more of a crime. Do not hold prejudice against a large group of innocent people because of the terrible actions of a very, very small minority. For Americans, how would you feel if the world did that to you because of the abortion clinic bombers/gunners who are just as fundamentalist and radical as the jihadis.

 

[sarahsboy18]

Also, one of the reasons why they strap bombs to themselves is because they have no training at all, they have no form of coordinated attack and are pretty ineffective with small arms. If they were to face us head on they would loose miserably, so one man dying to kill a group of others is pretty good odds for them.

They are still running into to places where civilians live and work... with the DIRECT intent to kill civilians. Obviously I just must be ignorant.... But I can't bring even slightest understanding out of my heart for actions like that.

It's interesting that when America gets attacked everyone is full of sympathy and condolences, but when London gets attacked, ****, we deserved it!

London didn't deserve it... And read some of the other posts in here... People are blaming America as well... And they did so the same day the Twin Towers fell. I don't know why there is this attitude of hate towards our own ideals and freedom... even within our nations. Sometimes it really seems more like guilt. Like you and I should be guilty because we live in free societies. But the ideals and freedom were not handed to us on a silver platter... Both of our countries have suffered and bought our freedom with the blood of our ancestors. Blood that was spilled on the battleground.

The biggest danger to our free society isn't drugs... isn't murder, it really isn't even terrorism (at least not directly).....it is complacency. It is this belief that somehow our ideals are no better than anybody else's. I for one choose not to believe that we should feel guilty for our beliefs. And if the these extreme Muslims have beliefs fine... Let them declare war. Let them advance their beliefs the same way every other country has had to. And if they are not large enough to win a war, than maybe they need to look at their own beliefs and start thinking about why nobody wants to fight for them. But I will NOT excuse or "understand" these cowardly acts of terrorism against our families.

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." Edmund Burke

For Americans, how would you feel if the world did that to you because of the abortion clinic bombers/gunners who are just as fundamentalist and radical as the jihadis.

Those terrorists are staying within our borders so this is a terrible analogy... But I do agree with your overall point. However, it is easy to get this confused because if remember right there was dancing in the streets of most of the Arab nations the day the twin towers fell. There is a sympathy for the terrorists even in the Arab community and you can't pretend that isn't the case.

5) Please point out where the Koran says to kill infidels? The prophet Mohammed actually told followers of Islam to respect the peoples of the book (that means Jews and Chrisitians). Pagans are truly the ones considered "infidels."

I depends on which part of the book you read and from which city (Mecca or Medina) Muhammad was speaking in. It seems that most of Muhammad's instructions from Mecca were peaceful... as you stated. But if you look at his later teachings from Medina.... That is where you find the basis for these attacks:

"If anyone chooses a religion other than Islam, it will never be accepted." (K 3:85) "Fight them (non-Muslims) until there is no apostasy and the only religion accepted is the religion of Allah (Islam)." (K 2:193)

"If they do not accept Islam, seize them and kill them wherever you find them." (K 4:89)

"O prophet (Muhammad), incite the believers (Muslims) to fight." (K 8:65) "Fight them until there will be no apostasy and the religion becomes Allah's religion (Islam)." (K 8:39) "Kill the infidels (non-Muslims) wherever you find them, seize them and lie in wait to ambush them. If they repent (convert to Islam) and give alms let them go." (K 9:5) "Fight the infidels (non-Muslims) and the hypocrites (people who claim they are Muslims) and be harsh to them. **** is their fate" (K 9:73)

Many believe that the terrorists are using this out of context... That these verses pertain to an inner battle not an external one. And that may very well be the case... But obviously that is not how the terrorists see it... and thus their "ignorance" shouldn't be "understood." This war, according to the Jihadists themselves, is about a Holy war against all infidels... not about payback for our actions in their countries.

---------------

And to the idea that somehow the Bible contains the types of references.... Show me chapter and verse... The Bible speaks (ALOT) of wars that go on in the Old Testament... It also has strict punishments for those Jews who do not follow God's laws, again in the Old Testament. But I beg you to show me where terrorism is justifiable. And many refer to the crusades... That was wrong and shouldn't have happened... But it wasn't based on the Bible nor was it based on Christianity. There is only one scripture Jesus spoke in Luke that even comes remotely close to "hate speech" but only if you take it WAY out of context.

 

[macAttack]

i disagree with Graphite, how can you see from their side? Do you know their reasons for killing innocent people? It seems ridiculous to say you know what their thinking. Yes, we have treated them badly, horribly, we have commited terrorists acts ourselves, but does that justify what they've done? No one can be allowed to do this, and i'm not saying that anyone here sides with them.

 

[Graphite]

i disagree with Graphite, how can you see from their side? Do you know their reasons for killing innocent people? It seems ridiculous to say you know what their thinking. Yes, we have treated them badly, horribly, we have commited terrorists acts ourselves, but does that justify what they've done? No one can be allowed to do this, and i'm not saying that anyone here sides with them.

You obviously did not read my posts. Non of you did, the only one I can actually listen to is sarasboy because I know for a fact he read most of it.

Please read the thread before you post.

Threads like this don't last long anyways...

 

[sarahsboy18]

I think it possible we (myself primarily) have somewhat confused the term "understand" with "justify."

I do "understand"... their point of view... However, I will not tolerate nor will I justify it.

Edit: I posted this cause I didn't feel like going back and editing all my posts... LOL

 

[dstopsky]

i disagree with Graphite, how can you see from their side? Do you know their reasons for killing innocent people? It seems ridiculous to say you know what their thinking. Yes, we have treated them badly, horribly, we have commited terrorists acts ourselves, but does that justify what they've done? No one can be allowed to do this, and i'm not saying that anyone here sides with them.

Firstly, you shouldn't assume all people on here are from the same parts of the world and have lived similar lives. Just because a profile reads that someone is located in the U.S., for example, doesn't mean that they grew-up there or even have lived there for a significant amount of time. My profile reads London, UK but I have only lived in this country for 1.5 years.

Secondly, I can't believe you actually said "Yes, we have treated them badly, horribly, we have commited terrorists acts ourselves, but does that justify what they've done?" If you read that a few times you might UNDERSTAND their point of view. You are basically saying it's alright for the U.S./Western world to committ violent acts of crime against civillians, but if anyone retaliates it's not allowed. I am NOT trying to justify anyone's side, whether it be the jihadis or the U.S. How can you justify "terrorist" acts from the U.S., as you claimed they have done?

It's just disgraceful to see fellow human beings pardon acts of terrorism from one side and condemn them from the other just because they don't live the same way as you. They should both be treated equally, which is to equally condemn both parties for their crimes of war and terrorism. While there are different tactics used both sides are doing the same thing, killing innocent people whose only crime was being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

 

[rs2sensen]

It's interesting that when America gets attacked everyone is full of sympathy and condolences, but when London gets attacked, ****, we deserved it!

Please don't feel that that is the view of all Americans. It really isn't. There is a huge amount of sympathy for London right now too. As soon as I saw this thread, and learned of the attack, I flew to the nearest TV to see the news. In my mind, the word "fishturds" (ie. censored), repeated over and over in my mind. When my 10 year old song heard this story, he thought they did it because they "wanted to take over London." Sometimes I love the very young, often nieve mind. I explained the true meaning of these attacks to him, and did my best to explain the terrorists motives. And you know what he said to me back "thats stupid." and it is. To kill people over religion. What horid attacks. Some in the US understand like I do Edgefusion.

 

[rs2sensen]

How can you justify "terrorist" acts from the U.S., as you claimed they have done?

I like to think that the times when the USA has killed civilians, that those times were accidents. It may be a nieve though, and I may be wrong. But we all must believe something, and that is what I believe.

The terrorists in London killed innocent people. They did not kill soldiers. They did not kill people who wanted to kill them. They killed woman and children. War is war, people die in war on both happens. It happens, thats life. But this is not war. This is MURDER. How can you justify, or if not justify, even attempt to give them understanding?

 

[rs2sensen]

Sorry to do three in a row here, but I keep coming back to this thread.

Here are some of my thoughts:

I worry that all middle easterners will ge labeled as terrorists. We must remember that most of these acts are done by a select few radicals.

There are reasons for people to hate the United States. There are also reasons to hate England, Iraq, China, Japan, France, Germany, Spain, etc. There are reasons to dislike any country in the world.

In war, innocent people sometimes die. This attack was not an act of war, and no government in the world would call it that. This was the murder of innocent civilians.

No matter how hard we try, we will not be able to understand how these radicals think. At the same time, I don't give any "understanding" to them. They could try other ways to get what they want, massacres are not acceptable.

I could never justify their attacks for any reason whatsoever. I can justify the war in Iraq. My uncle went over there a couple years back. He has said that the local people would cheer when the US soldiers would come to town. Saddam Hussien was a horid man who would torture innocent people. He also raped innocent woman, which in my mind, is worse than torture, and could be considered a form of it.

I think that something must be done about tensions in the Middle East. This has been going on for much too long. It's time to give peace a chance. That doesn't mean pulling out immediately from Iraq, that will only cause more problems. And that doesn't mean that we should give the terrorists any credit, understanding, justification, or anything else. However, it is time to bury the proverbial hatchet, shake a few hands, kiss a few babies, and move on.

 

[macAttack]

Firstly, you shouldn't assume all people on here are from the same parts of the world and have lived similar lives. Just because a profile reads that someone is located in the U.S., for example, doesn't mean that they grew-up there or even have lived there for a significant amount of time. My profile reads London, UK but I have only lived in this country for 1.5 years.

Secondly, I can't believe you actually said "Yes, we have treated them badly, horribly, we have commited terrorists acts ourselves, but does that justify what they've done?" If you read that a few times you might UNDERSTAND their point of view. You are basically saying it's alright for the U.S./Western world to committ violent acts of crime against civillians, but if anyone retaliates it's not allowed. I am NOT trying to justify anyone's side, whether it be the jihadis or the U.S. How can you justify "terrorist" acts from the U.S., as you claimed they have done?

It's just disgraceful to see fellow human beings pardon acts of terrorism from one side and condemn them from the other just because they don't live the same way as you. They should both be treated equally, which is to equally condemn both parties for their crimes of war and terrorism. While there are different tactics used both sides are doing the same thing, killing innocent people whose only crime was being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

I was not assuming we all have the same life experiences, but that we all (hopefully) have never been, or will be, terrorists, and understand their reasons, or feel their hate.

When i said, "Yes, we have treated them badly, horribly, we have commited terrorists acts ourselves, but does that justify what they've done?" i did not mean it as you took it, i meant it for both sides. To make myslef more clear i should have added "or vice versa". And i never tried to justify terrorism form anyone

We can argue about details all day long, but in the end we know that terrorism is a hateful act that should not be commited.