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Teenagers Are Being Led Astray

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Imo, the better question to ask would be why are we STILL there, the past is the past, what about the now?

I'm a 9th grader, if someone asked me that question I would say:
"I don't know."

I don't pretend to know anything about the middle east or anything of the sort.


All I know is that I saw this calendar at Wal-Mart and it was counting down the days Bush has left and every day has another stupid quote on it.

It's pretty funny, although it must be popular considering it was $9.99....in February.

I'm have a much louder voice on things that are more close to home to me personally.
 

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I'm have a much louder voice on things that are more close to home to me personally.

This particular topic couldn't get much closer, because if this war doesn't end soon, you may be a part of it whether you know it now or not.
 
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From what I read, after doing a research paper on Bin Laden, at first he asked politely to get US troops out of his land because they were interfering with his religious beliefs and practices.


I'm sure the Al Saud family doesn't believe that their kingdom is 'his land' though. In fact, they're not very pleased with Bin Laden either.. and haven't been for longer than we haven't been. Really, I have a hard time enabling him by granting him any more power than he really deserves.
 
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This particular topic couldn't get much closer, because if this war doesn't end soon, you may be a part of it whether you know it now or not.

They'll have to drag me kicking and screaming.

I have nothing but respect for the men and women that serve our country, but I'm not one of them, and I never want to be. If the draft starts up again, I'm expatriating.

I'm already on the verge of mutinying the country. Go ahead and negative rep me, whatever it is you want to think, but I don't support this war, I don't support the government (bunch of farking crooks), and most importantly, I don't support my so called freedoms continuing to be restricted.

However, what the armed forces get up and do every day takes a lot. I respect that so much, just as I respect firemen for doing their job, because it's something I could never, and have no desire to do.

Besides, if they reinstate the draft, they'd better lower the **** drinking age. If I'm old enough to die for my country, I'm old enough to enjoy a beer.

Sorry, I'm just very bitter on the topic. I've lost three friends in this god forsaken war, and every time the war comes up I get more and more angry with the country and the direction it's going.

Bush put as much thought into the war as a 15 year old girl with mom's credit card in a shoe store would think about what shoes to get (i.e. no thought at all).

We're stuck there now. And it's not going to end. At some point people will stop signing up for the armed forces, the draft starts again, and a whole new generation of draft dodgers and flag burners starts up. For every one of those neo-hippies, there will be the clueless, flag waving Redneck who's all for the war, but wouldn't go near a recruiting office if they were giving out free Nascar tickets.

Agh. Turned into a rant.

To summarize:

I don't agree with the war, I hate these blind flag wavers that aren't even thinking about the reality of the war we're in, and I'm readying my Zippo for when those draft cards come around.
 
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The bottom line is, we are there and we are not in a position to leave any time soon. The likelihood of significantly more bloodshed in what is now Iraq would increase exponentially if we just walked away now or any time in the next several years. If we can get a government that can run itself going we can get out. If not, then we have some hard choices to make in the next 4 or 5 years. For those who think we should just up and walk away now, I'd like to know what you think should be done during the disaster and genocide that will follow.

The only real answer, IMHO, is to partition the country into 3 nations. Kurds in the north and the Sunni and Shia in the center and south. Unfortunately, the Turks would hate this idea and cause all kinds of problems for NATO.

As for 9/11 and Iraq, the two are, at best, tenuously related or at least were until Al-Quaeda started fighting in Iraq. For those who don't know, Iran and Al-Quaeda don't get along well and there is a war of words (and likely soon guns) going on there as well.

As for a draft, not going to happen. That WOULD be a disaster of large proportions on many levels.
 
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The bottom line is, we are there and we are not in a position to leave any time soon. The likelihood of significantly more bloodshed in what is now Iraq would increase exponentially if we just walked away now or any time in the next several years. If we can get a government that can run itself going we can get out. If not, then we have some hard choices to make in the next 4 or 5 years.

The only real answer, IMHO, is to partition the country into 3 nations. Kurds in the north and the Sunni and Shia in the center and south. Unfortunately, the Turks would hate this idea and cause all kinds of problems for NATO.

As for 9/11 and Iraq,the two are, at best, tenuously related or at least were until Al-Quaeda started fighting in Iraq. For those who don't know, Iran and Al-Quaeda don't get along well and there is a war of words (and likely soon guns) going on there as well.

Baggss, I'm writing you in on my ballot this november.

You'd be the best president ever.
 
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They'll have to drag me kicking and screaming.

I have nothing but respect for the men and women that serve our country, but I'm not one of them, and I never want to be. If the draft starts up again, I'm expatriating.

I'm already on the verge of mutinying the country. Go ahead and negative rep me, whatever it is you want to think, but I don't support this war, I don't support the government (bunch of farking crooks), and most importantly, I don't support my so called freedoms continuing to be restricted.

However, what the armed forces get up and do every day takes a lot. I respect that so much, just as I respect firemen for doing their job, because it's something I could never, and have no desire to do.

Besides, if they reinstate the draft, they'd better lower the **** drinking age. If I'm old enough to die for my country, I'm old enough to enjoy a beer.

Sorry, I'm just very bitter on the topic. I've lost three friends in this god forsaken war, and every time the war comes up I get more and more angry with the country and the direction it's going.

Bush put as much thought into the war as a 15 year old girl with mom's credit card in a shoe store would think about what shoes to get (i.e. no thought at all).

We're stuck there now. And it's not going to end. At some point people will stop signing up for the armed forces, the draft starts again, and a whole new generation of draft dodgers and flag burners starts up. For every one of those neo-hippies, there will be the clueless, flag waving Redneck who's all for the war, but wouldn't go near a recruiting office if they were giving out free Nascar tickets.

Agh. Turned into a rant.

To summarize:

I don't agree with the war, I hate these blind flag wavers that aren't even thinking about the reality of the war we're in, and I'm readying my Zippo for when those draft cards come around.


Well dont worry. You are certainly not alone in the way you feel. Thats for sure. But we just cannot leave Iraq in the state its in. We made the mess, it was a mess before, so we cant go in a leave a bigger one. Leaving just sadly isnt an option at the moment.

[Edit] I really shouldnt leave a tab open for 45 mins, and then reply without refreshing to see that two more posts were put. My bad.

And I wouldnt want put baggs in that situation. He seems like a kind of person who would want to keep his self respect :D
 
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I'm readying my Zippo for when those draft cards come around.

The political ramifications of a draft are such that I doubt it will happen. Be that as it may, I seem to recall having to register within 30 days of turning 18 for selective service. I don't think that's changed yet :D
 
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I agree with you there. They are pretty psychotic. It just seems like a never ending war
Agreed. However, as much as I hate to admit it, I have to say President Bush has a few legitimate points. One of them is that we are not fighting a specific country so it is difficult to measure any real degree of success ... other than counting their dead. It's not that we can't win. I believe we are superior to our enemy in every way. But we've become too civilized. When we fought WWII, we valued winning over worrying about our enemy's civilian casualties. Now I'm not advocating the slaughter of innocent civilians, however, when the enemy is living among them, using our civility against us, and these civilians know it should we be more concerned about them at the expense of ourselves? I'm going to emphatically say NO! We should set our goal on winning and ending this mess ASAP.
 
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milessthomas
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It just amazed me that this is what they thought. These kids, their opinions of topics, do matter. These are the future voters! If they are choosing a conclusion without researching the facts for themselves (such as taking their own parents beliefs) they aren't growing to decide for themselves.

They are taking whatever media source or parent tells them and repeating it.

It made me wonder whether the future generation is capable of making independent decisions based on their own research and reasoning. Because what is a belief if you don't know all of the background behind said belief?
 
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Does anyone think we invaded Iraq maybe because Sadaam tried to assassinate the first President Bush? The attacks on the trade towers and the hatred towards the middle east kinda gave President Bush an excuse to invade Iraq. I am a veteran who was lucky enough to spend 6 years in Korea instead of going to Iraq but all my friends did go. I will probably get negative feedback for this but isn't invading a country an act of terrorism? Also, don't we praise our founding fathers as heros for fighting the British control of early America? To the Iraqi people we are a foreign country trying to have control over their country and they are doing what our founding fathers did back then. Now the ways they are doing it are wrong, but our revolutionary army used gorilla warfare as well.
 
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It just amazed me that this is what they thought. These kids, their opinions of topics, do matter. These are the future voters! If they are choosing a conclusion without researching the facts for themselves (such as taking their own parents beliefs) they aren't growing to decide for themselves.

They are taking whatever media source or parent tells them and repeating it.

It made me wonder whether the future generation is capable of making independent decisions based on their own research and reasoning. Because what is a belief if you don't know all of the background behind said belief?


This happens all the time and it is part of growing up. Eventually they will figure out what they believe and go from there. This also show quite well how out of touch with what is going on in the world at large many can become. This is a product of the self centered society we live in. Too may people, not just kids, are more interested in their iPod, MySpace, American Idol, Brittany Spears, GTA IV, Scientology and so on to care what is happening on the other side of the globe. It is also becoming VERY hard to find independent unbiased reporting. You have to look beyond CNN, FOX, Yahoo, MSNBC and the BBC to find what is really going on out there. It takes time and an attention span longer than the length of the current song playing on your iPod. Too many people don't have the patience for it.

hondagus87 said:
Does anyone think we invaded Iraq maybe because Sadaam tried to assassinate the first President Bush? The attacks on the trade towers and the hatred towards the middle east kinda gave President Bush an excuse to invade Iraq. I am a veteran who was lucky enough to spend 6 years in Korea instead of going to Iraq but all my friends did go. I will probably get negative feedback for this but isn't invading a country an act of terrorism? Also, don't we praise our founding fathers as heros for fighting the British control of early America? To the Iraqi people we are a foreign country trying to have control over their country and they are doing what our founding fathers did back then. Now the ways they are doing it are wrong, but our revolutionary army used gorilla warfare as well.

Assassination? Not a very good excuse. Maybe if Clinton had done it at the time it would have been a good reason. Invading a country is not an act of terrorism in and of itself but the motivation behind it can be considered such. The US did technically simply uphold numerous UN resolutions that the UN themselves were too spineless to do. The problem is that the one organization that could reasonably act as a world cohesive world body is too corrupt and splintered to really even do it's job anymore. Remember, UN officials were taking bribes from Sadam to look the other way while he sold Oil, against UN resolutions, on the black market to build more palaces and buy more weapons. In the end the UN will have to be replaced by something more binding or by nothing at all. Many Iraqis see us for what we are, a country trying to help them. I know a number of folks in country right now and many who have been there for the last few years. All of them claim that the average Iraqi likes Americans and what we are doing but that they would like to see an end all of this even more than we would. Unfortunately we (the US) may lose our political will to continue to do the right thing and the Iraqis will pay the bill first, with their lives, and the west as a whole will follow shortly after.
 
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I didn't state the assassination attempt as a response for the country but as a response as a son. I do agree that the U.N. is spineless having worked with the UN in Korea I can say that they are pretty useless when trying to deal with the north Koreans. As for the people who say we need to leave, I know that if we left it would cause world war 3 and we would just end up back over there because Iran would invade Iraq and claim it as there own or the Iraqi people would kill themselves and cause a wasteland.
 
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Part of me agrees with you. Part of me doesn't. The problem is these nut-bags view us (the USA) as the enemy so if left alone, eventually, they will us strike again. I'd much rather fight on their doorsteps than ours. I sleep better knowing their families have a higher risk of dying from a bomb on any given night than mine. I want to keep it that way!

I think there will be problems in the Middle East as long as there is a need for oil. The religious fanatics over there will continue to preach that we are the root of all their problems instead of seeing that it is there own corrupt government. Even if we leave at this point the damage is done. They blame us for all their problems and they will continue to try and find ways to attack us.

I do like the way the entire middle east is being lumped together in some of these posts...
The iraqi, iranian, [insert arab country here] people and governments weren't the ones who attacked the US.
Sure - they have a lot of hateful preachers, but you would think the US has enough experience with religious nuts of its own to distinguish between a nut and a dangerous movement.

The islamic crazies aren't the ones in power, so why give them so much credibility? Why are they considered a threat?

NOTE: Obviously the above doesn't apply to iraq now - the lack of a government there currently gives religious extremists a chance to fill the power vacuum caused by Saddam's ousting - just like you'd see a lot more horrific crimes in any country if there's only a slim chance of being caught / punished.


Baggss said:
The US did technically simply uphold numerous UN resolutions that the UN themselves were too spineless to do. The problem is that the one organization that could reasonably act as a world cohesive world body is too corrupt and splintered to really even do it's job anymore. Remember, UN officials were taking bribes from Sadam to look the other way while he sold Oil, against UN resolutions, on the black market to build more palaces and buy more weapons. In the end the UN will have to be replaced by something more binding or by nothing at all.
Excellent post as usual :)

However - I do think the UN deserves a bit more credit:
Why is the UN spineless? Because the security council can never pass resolutions. Why? Because there's always a conflict of interes between those in power.
Solution: UN reform. Who's blocking reform? The security council members - more specifically the US and Russia.

The UN is an institution that does enormous amounts of good and has huge potential. But without countries supporting and recognising its decisions, or a means to enforce them, it's useless. It's easy to criticize - we need politicians willing to fix the problem.
 
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I agree with you there. They are pretty psychotic. It just seems like a never ending war

"They" is a very general and broad term.
Like baggss has said, and I think another poster as well, not all of the Iraqi people hate the US, nor Middle-Easterns, or Muslims for that matter. "They" all aren't psychotic. It's like generalizing all-Americans are fat, greedy, Caucasian business men, who exploit anyone and everyone to try and quench their unquenchable thirst for power.

I met a Caliph from a local mosque, who is from Iraq.
He told me that his dad was a Sunni, his mom was a Shi'ite. Not once in his lifetime, did they ever argue about their religious beliefs. For them and for many Iraqi Muslims (at least according to him), they saw each other as Muslims first before anything else. Sunni's and Shi'ites have lived together without conflict in Iraq long before the US's second involvement.

As an Iraqi, he is also opposed to the immediate withdrawal of US troops from Iraq. He wants to see Iraq with a stable government first, before the US leaves. He is also opposed to the partitioning of 3 separate 'territories'. Doing so could separate many Iraqi families, such as his.

Now I know its only the viewpoint of one man. A man who hasn't stepped foot in his country since before the second US involvement. But it has really brought a dimension of intimacy that has been overlooked in most cases.
 
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The political ramifications of a draft are such that I doubt it will happen. Be that as it may, I seem to recall having to register within 30 days of turning 18 for selective service. I don't think that's changed yet :D

No, that hasn't changed, however I wasn't given the option to mark conscientious objector when I registered. I was told I'd have to classify that during the draft.
 
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For disclosure, let me preface this by stating that I am a Republican, and I spent some time in the first Iraq conflict, (1991), and that the reasons that this nation had for getting involved there were valid ones. This nation can not turn it's eyes away when international conflict that have widespread regional ramifications occur. Plain and simple.

Now... having said this...


Back when George W. Bush Jr sought to seek support from the house and senate, his chief argument for invading and removing Hussein and his Bath party was the argument that they possessed weapons of mass destruction. Period. It wasn't 9/11, and it wasn't Al Qaeda. The intelligence community new full well that no element from Iraq was involved at any stage in the September 11 events. And Al Qaeda was not even a blip in Iraq at the time because Hussein and his Bath party would behead any element, wether religious or political, that would challenge it's power base in the country. In other words, WMD, or weapons of mass destruction were the ONLY justification that Bush and his circle of influence were pushing. They new anything short of that would never get the support from the house or the senate.

Now, Bush new full well that his intelligence in Iraq indicated that the evidence did not support that WMD existed in Iraq. And he was told by both the intelligence community and the military leadership at the time in clear unambiguous ways. So he did what he has done these past seven years when confronted with a truth he did not want to hear. He fired or replaced those individuals who were providing actual intelligence of actual events or circumstances in the theatre of operations, and replaced them with individuals who would tot the party line, and whom he could present to the nation as "credible" sources. So, he dragged this nation into an unattainable conflict. During the first conflict, our forces were within eyesight of Bagdad. But his father was warned about the political vacuum and the costly ramifications that would ensue if we did take Bagdad and removed Hussein. It was argued at the time, that it was far better to contain him and the Bath party using political and economic pressure with the help of the international community. Bush Jr, however, did not take this counsel and decided to flex his "might" as President of the United States with the assistance of a small group of conservative republicans working behind the scenes. Seven years later, we are still in that political quagmire with no end in sight. Most Americans have no real idea of the real cost of this war yet. The full magnitude is staggering. Bush has had to borrow extensively abroad to fund a lot of this war. What congress has approved so far, as staggering as it is, is just a small part of the total cost. He has brought this country to the brink of bankruptcy. This country's manufacturing base has all but been outsourced overseas. Our primary industries today are in the service field. And you don't generate a whole lot of business related tax revenue and income for the country out of call centers and questionable financial investment practices. So our ability to generate revenue from manufactured goods, which is a major part of any viable economy, has been severely compromised. We are a country that is not only deep in debt, but that it is now unable to sustain an economy that can support a major military conflict financially if we are forced to. We are unable to deliver vital services to our local communities because monies for many vital programs have been diverted, and continue to be diverted to support Bush's war in Iraq. When you have states that have been hard core republican states with republican leadership, write to their federal counterparts and inform them that they will no longer be able to administer and provide federally mandated programs and services for the community because they no longer have the financial means to do so, you know you have wide ranging problems. Most state agencies in this nation have had to reduce their trained work force and the services that the deliver to their local communities to a mere presence for this reason, and the trend continues.

The situation that we have in Iraq today are almost entirely supported and manufactured by Bush policies. If Al Qaeda is a significant presence today, it is because Bush policies have made it so. We are never going to bring resolution to the centuries old conflicts that exist between the different factions there. Our credibility in the international community is down to almost zilch. Bush has done what the Soviet Union in all their hey day never could... diminish the international political and economic stature of this country. It is going to take a long, long time for whatever successor takes over next January to clean up the mess that we presently have in this country, and it is going to be a thankless painful process for this country, at a high price that our fathers, mothers, and children will have to continue to pay for.
 
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This happens all the time and it is part of growing up. Eventually they will figure out what they believe and go from there. This also show quite well how out of touch with what is going on in the world at large many can become. This is a product of the self centered society we live in. Too may people, not just kids, are more interested in their iPod, MySpace, American Idol, Brittany Spears, GTA IV, Scientology and so on to care what is happening on the other side of the globe. It is also becoming VERY hard to find independent unbiased reporting. You have to look beyond CNN, FOX, Yahoo, MSNBC and the BBC to find what is really going on out there. It takes time and an attention span longer than the length of the current song playing on your iPod. Too many people don't have the patience for it.

http://patdollard.com/

I myself haven't really taken time to read all the posts there and such, but one of my good friends is an avid reader of it, and firm supporter of the war, and always sends me emails to read certain stories. It is a blog site of many of the soldiers over in Iraq currently in the war and experiencing it first hand.
 
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"They" is a very general and broad term.
Like baggss has said, and I think another poster as well, not all of the Iraqi people hate the US, nor Middle-Easterns, or Muslims for that matter. "They" all aren't psychotic. It's like generalizing all-Americans are fat, greedy, Caucasian business men, who exploit anyone and everyone to try and quench their unquenchable thirst for power.

I met a Caliph from a local mosque, who is from Iraq.
He told me that his dad was a Sunni, his mom was a Shi'ite. Not once in his lifetime, did they ever argue about their religious beliefs. For them and for many Iraqi Muslims (at least according to him), they saw each other as Muslims first before anything else. Sunni's and Shi'ites have lived together without conflict in Iraq long before the US's second involvement.

As an Iraqi, he is also opposed to the immediate withdrawal of US troops from Iraq. He wants to see Iraq with a stable government first, before the US leaves. He is also opposed to the partitioning of 3 separate 'territories'. Doing so could separate many Iraqi families, such as his.

Now I know its only the viewpoint of one man. A man who hasn't stepped foot in his country since before the second US involvement. But it has really brought a dimension of intimacy that has been overlooked in most cases.

I was more referring to the radicals. I am sure there are plenty of good people in Iraq. I cant understand though why they dont make a stand as people and say enough.
I am christian and to be honest there are a lot of radical christians who scare the *insert word here* out of me.
 

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