Price of Admission: America's College Debt Crisis CNBC 12-21-2010

[schweb]

I went to a university for a year. I couldn't stand 100 level classes with 110+ people in one classroom. I didn't feel a connection to the teacher. When I was in CCJ 250 with 24 people, it was a lot easier. I could talk to the teacher, she knew my name, etc. If I could have gotten past all the 100 level classes, I would have stayed in.

There are a lot of different schools out there...hundreds of colleges. You could have spent more time looking for one that actually fit your personality or learning style. Many of them don't have classes with that many students.

And no, you don't need that piece of paper to get to the top of of a company. Ever head of Steve Jobs? Bill Gates? Mark Zuckerberg?
No college degrees.

Ok, so three geniuses. Great example.

So let's get back to reality here and put it in perspective. Three examples out of how many CEOs in America?

 

[the8thark]

And no, you don't need that piece of paper to get to the top of of a company. Ever head of Steve Jobs? Bill Gates? Mark Zuckerberg?
No college degrees.
Well Bill Gates still makes this list as he got his degree after creating and making bank off Microsoft.

Yes you do. But you are right in a way too. Jobs or Gates or Zuckerburg never worked their way to the top of a company. They were always at the top from day 1. If you start from the bottom and work your way up you need the paper. But if you want to make your own company and start at the top you don't need the paper.

 

[pigoo3]

I went to a university for a year. I couldn't stand 100 level classes with 110+ people in one classroom. I didn't feel a connection to the teacher. When I was in CCJ 250 with 24 people, it was a lot easier. I could talk to the teacher, she knew my name, etc. If I could have gotten past all the 100 level classes, I would have stayed in.

Yes I can understand the experiences that you had previously with going to a University & large class sizes. What you have to realize is in the beginning when you're taking a lot of the "basic " 1st $ 2nd year university courses...the class sizes do tend to be much larger. But as you start taking the more degree specific courses (depending on the degree)...the class sizes can get much much smaller (many classes I had...had 30-40 students...some smaller like 12-15). And then with some grad. school classes...I know some very specific courses only had like 5-7 people in them.

If smaller class sizes and a professors that know your name are important to you...a smaller college or university might be a better choice.

I know that your Mac-Forums signature mentions that your current intentions are to join the USAF & that basic training is something like 36 days (or less) away. Let me mention that there are number of members here on Mac-Forums that have served in the military...and some that put in their 20+ years and retired from the military. Serving in the military & possibly doing 20+ years & retiring from the military is certainly an alternative career path.

But let me mention that the military is not for everyone either (just like attending college is not for everyone). Next to NOBODY has any real idea of what serving in the military is like BEFORE they get there. Yeah you can do research, and ask lots of questions from friends, family, strangers, and your recruiters what the military is like...but no description is ever going give you the REAL picture.

Let me also mention this. When I served in the military...I knew very very few people that TRUELY liked being in the military. Everybody hated it. I could list lots & lots of reasons why serving in the military is difficult...and none of it would really "hit home" until you actually experience it for yourself. The vast majority of folks who serve as enlisted members of the military are doing it because they thought they had no better options in civilian life:

- didn't like college
- didn't have enough money for college
- tired of dead end minimum wage jobs
- couldn't find a job (unemployed for a long time)

...so they enlisted in the military...and learned to hate it very very quickly. And guess what...unlike a civilian job...you cannot just quit or get out of your 3, 4, 5, etc. year enlistment (unless you get a medical, less than honorable, etc. discharge). You have to serve out your time...like it or not! And guess what...one of the first things that folks in the military do is (either to get promotion points to get promoted, or to prepare themselves after they get out of the military)...is take COLLEGE/UNIVERSITY classes!!! Ha, Ha, Ha. So back to more education...and those "expensive pieces of paper".

If the military is so great...why doesn't everyone stay in??? The vast majority of enlisted folks only serve their initial 3, 4, 5 year enlistment...then get out. Why...because they HATED it!!! Some people like the military or at least are able to tolerate it...and stay in for 20+ years & retire from the military. And it was a great experience for them.

What I'm trying to say is...if your future career plans are all wrapped up in serving in the military great...but keep in mind that the VAST majority of folks that join the military DO NOT serve past their initial enlistment. Why...because they:

- realize that there are better opportunities in the civilian world
- attending college really wasn't so bad after all...and a HECK of a lot better than the military
- would rather work at that minimum wage job dead-end job...since serving in the military is very hard...and very hard when trying to stay married & raising a family

Finally...if someone is let's say 18-22 years old. After 20 years in the military you will still only be 38-42 years old. Probably too young to totally retire...so you still have to have career plans going forward even after retiring from the military. And in MANY cases...involves MORE education (usually college related education)!

And no, you don't need that piece of paper to get to the top of of a company. Ever head of Steve Jobs? Bill Gates? Mark Zuckerberg?
No college degrees.
Well Bill Gates still makes this list as he got his degree after creating and making bank off Microsoft.

The ends justifying the means. Just how I like it

There are always exceptions to every rule. You listed 3 company CEO's that did very well without a college education. but...let's put together two lists...one list with big company CEO's that DO NOT have a college degree, and another list with big companies with CEO's that DO have (at least) one degree (any MANY have multiple). I think that you'll find that the list with no degree is VERY SHORT...and the list with degrees to be VERY LONG. This should tell you something...a college degree or degrees...can be very important (depending on the career path you choose).

The bottom line is...I would LOVE to hear from you in about 2-3 years (and if you're honest with your opinions)...see how your opinions regarding college and/or the military will have changed (or remained the same).

Good luck with the path you eventually choose & continue to pursue,

- Nick

 

[schweb]

But if you want to make your own company and start at the top you don't need the paper.

Not so sure that's always true either. You're comparing three tech geniuses to the average person. The knowledge that you learn in school can also help make your own company successful. You're also assuming that you're starting a business that doesn't require any sort of advanced knowledge.

Again, let's bring it back to reality. Those are three examples. How many other people have been successful starting their own businesses from scratch into multi-billion dollar corporations over the last 30 years? And how many of them did not go to college?

BTW, all three of them did attend college, they just didn't graduate. Just saying.

 

[iggibar]

And no, you don't need that piece of paper to get to the top of of a company. Ever head of Steve Jobs? Bill Gates? Mark Zuckerberg?
No college degrees.

One huge problem there mate, they ALL created something that the WHOLE world can't seem to live without. It would be completely useless for them to go to school when they already are/were at the top of their own company. That's completely different from how you are talking about expecting to get a job solely on experience alone...that won't get you far unless your experience is for an upper position in a company(say, ceo, cfo, manager, eoa, etc...). 2 of them started working at a time when the majority of people didn't complete higher level education, as well as companies not having higher expectations of everyone at the time.

Why is everyone calling it just a "piece of paper?" It kinda makes it seem like you're belittling it...maybe because you regret not getting one?

 

[XJ-linux]

I'll just add that to be a success in business, one doesn't need to have a multi-billion dollar company. Small business use to be a realistically achievable goal in America with a lot of hard work. I know many successful people who have nice restaurants, gun stores, farms and real estate businesses and no college degree. I'd imagine that these folks make somewhere in the neighborhood of high 5 figures as they don't ***** about debt and can afford more than just the necessities of life. College is great, but there are several ways to skin a cat.
A college education is neither a right, nor a prerequisite to success in life. Honestly, I think if we had more people in the trades instead of everyone wanting to be CEO, the country might be more competitive in the manufacturing area. Perhaps then we wouldn't need to import everything?

 

[XJ-linux]

Interestingly enough, a survey released recently found that 25% of American kids are unable to join the military because they lack the knowledge to pass the ASVAB coming out of high school. Blame whomever or whatever for that, but it's a rising trend. It would appear one may need a few years of college under their belt before a military career is an achievable alternative to college. I wonder if a closet industry of ASVAB-Pred classes, books and the like will spring up as a result?

 

[iggibar]

Honestly, I think if we had more people in the trades instead of everyone wanting to be CEO, the country might be more competitive in the manufacturing area. Perhaps then we wouldn't need to import everything?

I agree 100%!

Interestingly enough, a survey released recently found that 25% of American kids are unable to join the military because they lack the knowledge to pass the ASVAB coming out of high school. Blame whomever or whatever for that, but it's a rising trend. It would appear one may need a few years of college under their belt before a military career is an achievable alternative to college. I wonder if a closet industry of ASVAB-Pred classes, books and the like will spring up as a result?

That ASVAB test was hard as heck, and we only took a sample of it! What people should know is that its a 25% failure not on a regular graded scale, but a test scale seeing if you know at least 50% of what you were tested on. It's tough even for some college students...at least that how the military reads your tests after they revised the grading. Your school will read them differently.

Where did you find the article?

 

[pigoo3]

Interestingly enough, a survey released recently found that 25% of American kids are unable to join the military because they lack the knowledge to pass the ASVAB coming out of high school. Blame whomever or whatever for that, but it's a rising trend. It would appear one may need a few years of college under their belt before a military career is an achievable alternative to college. I wonder if a closet industry of ASVAB-Pred classes, books and the like will spring up as a result?

Great point! Starting in the 1980's when the military was getting smaller...the number of folks that want to join the military exceeded the number of new recruits that the military needed. Just like with economics...when supply is greater than demand...the standards go up. So the requirements/standards to get into the military have increased...so not just anybody can get in. Of course as the needs of the military change (wartime/not wartime) standards can go up & down.

There was a time when all the military needed was "warm bodies" and you got in...but not anymore. Some people may not know this...but there was a time (maybe still) that a "young criminal" convicted of a crime...was given a choice...go to prison...or serve in the military (depending on the crime).

As the technological "savvy" of the military has increased...soldiers, sailers, airmen, marines need to be smarter & sharper as well. And of course let's not forget...if you want to be an officer in the military you need a college degree...or it used to be 2 years of college to enter the military's OCS (Officer Candidate School).

Like or not...if you got lots of folks out there with some college or college degrees (military or civilian)...why should someone as a hiring manager hire someone with no high school diploma or just a high school diploma if they can hire someone with a college education? Having a college degree does not always mean success on the job...but it certainly helps get you get "in the door" to find out. The high school diploma person doesn't even get in the door to find out.

A recent example...I just got a set of 4 tires for my SUV the other day from a local national chain tire retailer. The service guy (who took phone calls, waited on customers, took appointment, ran to other stores to get tires they were out of stock on, etc.)...had a college degree...and told me he had been working in "tire retail" since the 1970's. You don't "NEED" a college degree for this job...but he had one.

Food for thought,

- Nick

 

[pigoo3]

Honestly, I think if we had more people in the trades instead of everyone wanting to be CEO, the country might be more competitive in the manufacturing area. Perhaps then we wouldn't need to import everything?

Yes & no. I do know a lot of people who are in the trades (carpenters, plumbers, electricians, bricklayers, etc.) that have a college degree. But many persons that are pursuing a college education...also have higher wage/salary expectations. And to be honest...many folks who pursue a college education don't want to get their hands dirty or do physical labor.

Yes you can make good money as a tradesperson...but like I said...many folks with a college education don't want to get their hands dirty, do physical labor, or work the longs hours in uncomfortable environments. I'm not saying this is good or bad...but most folks do prefer to be clean, not be "dead-tired" after doing a 10-12 hours "physical labor" type of day...ans work in a nice air-conditioned or heated environment. A person in the trades with a college education (in the long run) would probably be more satisfied from a career standpoint if they started their own business.

Sure we might be more competitive in the manufacturing area worldwide if more employees had more education...but it still comes back top dollars & cents. To get a person with some college or a college education to work in manufacturing...this means higher wages/salaries, this means higher manufacturing costs for products produced, and this leads to higher product prices for the consumers/buyers of the products. This is why United States manufacturing jobs go over-seas. It's not necessarily about education level...it's about lower labor costs (which for various reasons are higher in the U.S.).

- Nick

 

[schweb]

I'll just add that to be a success in business, one doesn't need to have a multi-billion dollar company.

Don't disagree with that at all, just responding to the particular examples that were given above.

A college education is neither a right, nor a prerequisite to success in life.

No, but for better or worse in today's marketplace, it sure as heck improves your odds. The statistics don't lie in this case.

Honestly, I think if we had more people in the trades instead of everyone wanting to be CEO, the country might be more competitive in the manufacturing area. Perhaps then we wouldn't need to import everything?

I agree. But I think that's definitely a cultural thing here. People don't value trades like they used to or even still do in other parts of the world. There's a self-esteem thing in going to college...you're told you're better because you didn't go to trade school. Totally not the case and ultimately forces people into a system in which they're either not prepared or isn't a good fit and leads them to failure.

The US could learn from a lot of our European friends on this issue for sure.

Interestingly enough, a survey released recently found that 25% of American kids are unable to join the military because they lack the knowledge to pass the ASVAB coming out of high school. Blame whomever or whatever for that, but it's a rising trend.

Probably best for another thread maybe, but I honestly think it's pretty easy to find the blame on this one. It's three big things:

1. Teachers Unions protecting bad teachers and outdated techniques
2. The mostly property tax based funding systems which automatically destroys any true "equal" education ability between rich and poor property areas.
3. A Federal government that does not place education funding or research as a priority and hasn't for a very, very long time.

Unfortunately, the entire idea of a "social contract" in this nation has been replaced over the last 30 to 40 years with a "contract of me and what's mine".

 

[DaFlake]

No child left behind! enough said....

 

[XJ-linux]

Where did you find the article?

Found it here...

APNewsBreak: Nearly 1 in 4 fails military exam - Yahoo! News

It was also on CNN and Fox News this morning.

 

[schweb]

No child left behind! enough said....

Eh, I'm not going to vilify the intent of NCLB. The ideas has some merit, but unfortunately, like most Federal education programs, it was mostly an unfunded mandate to states who already don't have enough money.

Add to it that it didn't address the three underlying problems I listed above, and that's why NCLB is an abject failure of a policy.

 

[iggibar]

Found it here...

APNewsBreak: Nearly 1 in 4 fails military exam - Yahoo! News

It was also on CNN and Fox News this morning.

lol...that was the same one I read...

 

[pigoo3]

I agree. But I think that's definitely a cultural thing here. People don't value trades like they used to or even still do in other parts of the world. There's a self-esteem thing in going to college...you're told you're better because you didn't go to trade school. Totally not the case and ultimately forces people into a system in which they're either not prepared or isn't a good fit and leads them to failure.

The US could learn from a lot of our European friends on this issue for sure.

Great point Schweb!

Even though I have multiple college degrees, have served in the military, and do all of my own repairs on my 4 automobiles (I mean as far as pulling out the engines & rebuilding them), 2 motorcycles, and all of the carpentry, plumbing, electrical...etc. on my home...I definitely understand the positives of a college education...and also totally understand the American cultural impacts of a college education vs. working in "the trades". I have many family members who work as tradespersons.

One analogy I like to think about is...if there was nuclear war (and a countries infrastructure was destroyed)...or if you were marooned on a desert or tropical island with no real hope of rescue...who would be a better person to be "marooned" with...a person:

- with a college degree who hasn't done one minute of physical labor in their life...and has no true hands on skills
- or a person who is a good carpenter...or would simply be willing to dig a trench a mile long in the hot Summer sun if that's what it would take to survive.

I'm not saying either person is not a good person...and doesn't possess good valuable skills...but there are situations where one "skill set" can be more valuable...and thus each person should be valued more equally for what they can do & know.

- Nick

p.s. I feel I can fit into both categories (willing to do physical labor & have lots of "hands on" skills...but at the same time have college degrees).

 

[RavingMac]

I was in the Airforce (USA) during the Vietnam War. Later I graduated from college with an engineering degree and went into the Army as an officer. At the time there were only three people in my platoon that had a minimum of a High School diploma, me (platoon leader and 2nd Lt) my platoon sergeant, and one of my men. So, times have really changed.

On the other subject, I have two comments:

1) I have hired a number of people over the years and you almost always have many more applicants than openings. So, you have to have some way of filtering to reduce to a reasonable number to interview. For better or for worse a piece of paper is often one of the filter selections. If you don't have that credential the hiring manager never has the opportunity to assess your other qualifications (including experience). So, like it or not if you want to have greater opportunities in this world you need to get the appropriate credentials (including diplomas as needed).

2) That brings me to my other point (my own mini-rant). I agree with Van about the value of education in and of itself. I will be retiring in the next one to four years and my plans include going back to school and studying history and foreign languages (modern and ancient). I have no goal in this other than my own entertainment and Fulfillment.
But, I see far too many kids signing up for degree programs with not clear vision of where they want to go in life and how that particular degree will help them get there. I won't list any of what I consider to be "throw-away degrees" because it isn't my intention to offend anyone, and there will always be exceptions (akin to the previously cited CEO geniuses) who prospered despite having chosen what I might perceive as deadend majors.
To see the truth of what I am saying all you have to do is look at recent statistics on who is working in their major and what income they are bringing in. (end of rant)

Bottom-line: college is not for everyone and we would be far better off if we recognized that and valued and honored those who choose to work in other professions, instead looking down our collective noses at them.

 

[pigoo3]

I was in the Airforce (USA) during the Vietnam War. Later I graduated from college with an engineering degree and went into the Army as an officer. At the time there were only three people in my platoon that had a minimum of a High School diploma, me (platoon leader and 2nd Lt) my platoon sergeant, and one of my men. So, times have really changed.

Awesome...thanks for sharing that experience & personal history!...a very interesting & RARE set of circumstances.

- to have served as an enlisted man in the USAF in Vietnam
- be discharged
- go to college & get a degree
- and then not only return to the military as an officer...but return to a different branch of the military!!!

And I totally agree about the education part. When I was in the Army in the early to mid 1980's...the entrance requirements were getting tougher:

- less non-high school graduates (basically you had to have at least a high school diploma)
- far fewer overweight folks (or at least very over-weight)
- and you had to score well on the exams.

Plus (as I'm sure you know)...many folks were being "drummed-out" early for not meeting the ever increasing standards to stay in the military. I was always surprised to see E-4's with 12 years of service (8-9 years in grade).

My opinion is...whether you're a soldier, tradesperson, engineer, homemaker, mother, etc...more education can't hurt.

- Nick

 

[s2odin]

...so they enlisted in the military...and learned to hate it very very quickly. And guess what...unlike a civilian job...you cannot just quit or get out of your 3, 4, 5, etc. year enlistment (unless you get a medical, less than honorable, etc. discharge). You have to serve out your time...like it or not! And guess what...one of the first things that folks in the military do is (either to get promotion points to get promoted, or to prepare themselves after they get out of the military)...is take COLLEGE/UNIVERSITY classes!!! Ha, Ha, Ha. So back to more education...and those "expensive pieces of paper".

If the military is so great...why doesn't everyone stay in??? The vast majority of enlisted folks only serve their initial 3, 4, 5 year enlistment...then get out. Why...because they HATED it!!! Some people like the military or at least are able to tolerate it...and stay in for 20+ years & retire from the military. And it was a great experience for them.

What I'm trying to say is...if your future career plans are all wrapped up in serving in the military great...but keep in mind that the VAST majority of folks that join the military DO NOT serve past their initial enlistment. Why...because they:

- realize that there are better opportunities in the civilian world
- attending college really wasn't so bad after all...and a HECK of a lot better than the military
- would rather work at that minimum wage job dead-end job...since serving in the military is very hard...and very hard when trying to stay married & raising a family

Oh, I'm not going to deny that. That's why I researched all my AFSC's. I was originally Security Forces, but after talking to an E-9 (Chief Master Sergeant) I decided against it. I talked to people on base about the career fields I was interested in. I got first hand experience from Airmen in their job fields and I chose my jobs accordingly. I didn't get any of them on the list, but after going online, and e-mailing an active duty individual, my job seems like something I will at least be interested in. And that's half the battle. You have to like your job. Most people go in as Open General and get stuck in Security Forces (ok, not everyone, but a good majority). They hate it, because either a) their ASVAB scores were too low, b) they couldn't find a job they like, or c) they are the people whom you mentioned tired of dead end jobs, no education. Whenever I apply myself, I am fully committed to it. I expect to graduate no less than an honor grad. If i don't get honor grad I would feel like a failure.
I have done almost all the prep work possible before starting, and I am willing to commit myself to my chosen career field.
As far as the family is concerned, I am dating an Air Force brat. Her dad is a Chief Master Sergeant, and he mom was in before she was born. She is used to the lifestyle therefore I am further preparing myself. She has given me some insight, and her dad (although he hates me) has given me some good information.

With that said, I think I will leave this topic alone from now, as everybody has their own opinion and I don't feel like stirring up any more anger / irritation / drama.

 

[RavingMac]

Thanks for the kind words, Nick.

The reason for the branch switch (air force to army) is two-fold. First I am an Army brat (dad spent his career in service) so I was familiar with service life. Second, Airforce closed down ROTC at my school the semester I started so it was Army or nothing.