Mac stability myth

[EGGO]

I can contradict that also with writings and anecdotal evidence also. While I wouldn't ever go so far to call OS X "bulletproof", the fact is it's a more secure operating system. This whole "obscurity" argument is really weak. OS X is increasingly less obscure, yet there continues to be a lack of real-world threats to it. And just to blow another hole in the whole "obscurity" argument, I'd like to point out that the Classic Mac OS and Linux each has a moderate number of viruses that are known to affect them, and they have far less market share than OS X does now. So why the disparity? Besides that, if OS X was just as vulnerable as Windows is, then wouldn't you think SOMEONE would step up to the plate and write/distribute the first virus (or the second trojan) JUST to prove it can be done, not to mention for ego's sake?

I would argue yes, since we've seen what the one hacker for the macbook air can do, but businesses and government (at this time) is still windows based and the kind of viruses that hits them, well the ones that make the news, come from overseas in some small country where Apple isn't quite as big. Philippines is a big perpetrator that's hit the pentagon a few times already. Obscurity isn't quite the word I was looking for, but I'm not a hacker so I don't think like them, I have no idea why they don't do it. That probably gets deeper into coding and whatnot which I have no idea about, zero, zip, zilch. My point isn't that macs don't have viruses or even why, but that it's not secure and shouldn't promise a virus-free environment forever. That's just like Norton promising Windows that they'll never catch a virus, which everybody would probably laugh at and feel guilty that they didn't pay a ticket to a stand-up comedy act.

 

[dtravis7]

anyone have this problem: applications in your apps folder dissappearing? not sure if i was hacked or infected...it only left 4 programs in folder (safari, firefox, itunes & windows media player--of which only safari is launchable) i couldnt even update the system as the Utilities folder is missing...WTFrell!

if anyone has clues...clue me in.

thanks

Your issue has me confused. I own many Macs and have never had anything disappear from the Applications folder unless I personally threw it into the trash. I will do some searching around though and get back to you if I run into anything that will help.

 

[eric]

That analogy has so many gaping holes in it that I think it put goatse to shame. Actually, a better analogy would be a Ferrari and an SUV.

[edit]Or looking back on it, maybe a Toyota vs. a Pontiac.

oh analogies, how i love them.

you could really go pretty broad or tight with this depending on what exactly you're calling the analogs to the hardware, the os and the interface.

and while an airplane and a car are pretty far apart, i don't think his one analogy is "full of holes" anymore than yours is.

in his, you have two conveyences. both have engine(s), controls, seats, etc. though they do differ in how you get to the end result (travel as an analog to productivity and amusement) the end result is similar.

in your analogy, we're talking skins on the same OS. other than a choice of automatic, semi-automatic, or manual transmission, the control scheme, engines, passenger configuration, capability on the track or off road, etc are all pretty much the same on almost all modern cars.

also, specifically dealing with your analogy "toyota vs pontiac" you do realize that the american pontiac vibe and toyota matrix are essentially the same car. ;P

if we need an automotive analogy, you're better off looking back a number of years - consider something like a stanley steamer vs the benz patentwagen.
4 wheels vs three wheels
steam vs petrol
various differences in control scheme that doesn't just boil down to where the turn signal stalk is located.

ok - i'm done. back to the on topic convo.

 

[EGGO]

oh analogies, how i love them.

you could really go pretty broad or tight with this depending on what exactly you're calling the analogs to the hardware, the os and the interface.

and while an airplane and a car are pretty far apart, i don't think his one analogy is "full of holes" anymore than yours is.

in his, you have two conveyences. both have engine(s), controls, seats, etc. though they do differ in how you get to the end result (travel as an analog to productivity and amusement) the end result is similar.

in your analogy, we're talking skins on the same OS. other than a choice of automatic, semi-automatic, or manual transmission, the control scheme, engines, passenger configuration, capability on the track or off road, etc are all pretty much the same on almost all modern cars.

also, specifically dealing with your analogy "toyota vs pontiac" you do realize that the american pontiac vibe and toyota matrix are essentially the same car. ;P

if we need an automotive analogy, you're better off looking back a number of years - consider something like a stanley steamer vs the benz patentwagen.
4 wheels vs three wheels
steam vs petrol
various differences in control scheme that doesn't just boil down to where the turn signal stalk is located.

ok - i'm done. back to the on topic convo.

Actually yes I did know they were the same car. I owned the Vibe at one point. I just didn't realize it until minutes after I posted. I was thinking something like the Toyota Supra vs. the Corvette or something of the other. Other than that I have nothing more to add since it's all now come down to anecdotal evidence and our own personal use of the machine, which is what I was arguing it would be.

 

[Lifeisabeach]

I would argue yes, since we've seen what the one hacker for the macbook air can do

LOL! That guy had discovered that vulnerability long before the contest and kept it to himself beforehand. Did you REALLY think anyone could have whipped up an undiscovered vulnerability in mere minutes? This hardly qualifies as an example of how "insecure" OS X is. It's also worth pointing out (and someone please correct me if I am misinformed) that virtually every known exploit of OS X (patched or not) requires direct access to the computer. In other words, a hacker will have to go to the extra trouble of breaking and entering into my house to get a chance at compromising my Mac.

, but businesses and government (at this time) is still windows based and the kind of viruses that hits them, well the ones that make the news, come from overseas in some small country where Apple isn't quite as big. Philippines is a big perpetrator that's hit the pentagon a few times already. Obscurity isn't quite the word I was looking for, but I'm not a hacker so I don't think like them, I have no idea why they don't do it. That probably gets deeper into coding and whatnot which I have no idea about, zero, zip, zilch. My point isn't that macs don't have viruses or even why, but that it's not secure and shouldn't promise a virus-free environment forever. That's just like Norton promising Windows that they'll never catch a virus, which everybody would probably laugh at and feel guilty that they didn't pay a ticket to a stand-up comedy act.

Who is promising OS X will always have a virus-free environment? I certainly am not and haven't heard of anyone who is. I don't question whether or not it's inevitable... I'm sure it is, but it should be obvious by now that it's not a simple matter to make one because NO ONE has yet been able to step up to the challenge of actually making one. Certainly not as easy as making one for Windows. Or Linux. Or the Classic Mac OS. All of which have more than OS X, regardless of market share. In any event, if the day comes, OS X will still prove to be more secure overall than the others. One OS with a handful of vulnerabilities versus one with a boatload of them doesn't make them "essentially the same".

 

[knightlie]

The mac, and laugh at this if you will, still relies on obscurity and not being much of a target.-

I do laugh at it. It's been debunked many times over.

On a technical level, Windows is a densely-layered, steaming pile of manure, whereas OSX isn't. Malware on Windows has a much better chance of achieving something malicious than OSX.

Edit:

...but businesses and government (at this time) is still windows based...

The US Army is moving to OSX precisely because Windows is so vulnerable.

 

[HIPAR]

I do laugh at it. It's been debunked many times over.

On a technical level, Windows is a densely-layered, steaming pile of manure, whereas OSX isn't. Malware on Windows has a much better chance of achieving something malicious than OSX.

Edit:

The US Army is moving to OSX precisely because Windows is so vulnerable.

Although my original post was a comment on the stability of my MacBook Pro, I'll have to ask this question about it's vulnerability to external threats:

Why do I see periodic software updates related to security appear when OS X checks in with Apple?

This Army thing must be a recent development. I worked for the Army as a civilian engineer for 35 years. My base was exclusively Microsoft for business applications. Tactical software was developed for various UNIX based workstations.

I wrote a few Windows applications for the proving grounds at Yuma AZ. These run on dedicated systems not connected to the internet so security wasn't a problem.

From my initial observations, I wouldn't trust mission critical software running on my MacBook Pro; too many crashes with some requiring me to lean on the power button and reboot. This is not acceptable in the heat of battle.

Is there more robust Mac hardware available? My MacBook Pro is very pretty but it wouldn't last too long in a field environment.

--- CHAS

 

[elma]

I think that the first point you raised is a very good one.

Whenever someone has a problem with a pc the mac crowd answer with "get a mac"

I love Macs but find these comments very frustrating.

Most of us would realise that each operating system has advantages and disadvantages.

Personally I favour mac for 95% of what I do, but I still keep a pc for the other 5%.

Anyway, I'm getting off the point.

Please don't answer pc owners with get a mac when they have problems, it only serves to infuriate them and makes them want a mac less. For all we know the pc user could already have 100 macs.

 

[Dysfunction]

Why do I see periodic software updates related to security appear when OS X checks in with Apple?

Aroog? Sorry, but I wouldn't trust a company that didn't respond to potential security threats. If you're in this industry one thing you will understand is that there's always a hole someone can exploit.. and there is never time to test every potential combination before you release a product.

 

[tharmsen]

If you can't "reach the Force Quit menu" because of the pinwheel, you need to learn the keyboard command.

Command+Option+Escape

No need to use your mouse.

As with all 3rd party applications, they can hang on you. This is not the fault of the Mac, this is the fault of the application. When is the last time you saw your Mac flat out crash? By flat out crash, I mean where you've lost complete control of the system and it's completely unresponsive or gives you some cryptic error message?

 

[HIPAR]

Aroog? Sorry, but I wouldn't trust a company that didn't respond to potential security threats. If you're in this industry one thing you will understand is that there's always a hole someone can exploit.. and there is never time to test every potential combination before you release a product.

Certainly, that's why I'm also not buying into 'Get a Mac and there will be no problems with Malware' myth. The only Malware I've experienced on any of my computers is the Malware I invited in.

--- CHAS

 

[theonegod]

That analogy has so many gaping holes in it that I think it put goatse to shame. Actually, a better analogy would be a Ferrari and an SUV.

[edit]Or looking back on it, maybe a Toyota vs. a Pontiac.

Gaping holes? I think not. Yours do though. You continue to post as though you think OS X and Windows are the same thing. When there is nothing at all similar about them other then the top layer of their UI which is itself vastly different.

That is why I make a car to plane analogy. The hardware that makes each up is similar though used slightly differently. And they both get you from point A to point B. They also both have seemingly similar ways of user interface on the surface. But the way they go about getting that job done could not be more different and that is why I use that analogy.

Your analogy of 2 cars is laughable. Other then minor cosmetic differences there is very little different from one card to another and any that exist are hardware related. They all work exactly the same way. They OS if you will is identical. They all get you from point A to point B exactly the same way any other car does.

I find it equally humorous that you used 2 vehicles that are clones of each-other. How Freudian.

If you want to claim OS X and Windows are the same then you are saying that Unix and Windows are the same. How can you not see just how silly that makes you look?

 

[theonegod]

Certainly, that's why I'm also not buying into 'Get a Mac and there will be no problems with Malware' myth. The only Malware I've experienced on any of my computers is the Malware I invited in.

--- CHAS

The Malware and virus issue is more an XP vs OS X issue. Vista allows you to run as a non admin just like OS X does which is the single best way to avoid being infected with Malware and Virus' out there. XP doesn't allow you to do this in a usable manner.

 

[EGGO]

I find it equally humorous that you used 2 vehicles that are clones of each-other. How Freudian.

If you want to claim OS X and Windows are the same then you are saying that Unix and Windows are the same. How can you not see just how silly that makes you look?

I didn't use 2 of the same vehicle, I used 2 manufacturers. One of the cars happen to be the same. I'm not saying the two are the same, I've corrected myself in a later post that the experience I get out of the two are essentially the same. The virus thing? Never was an argument of them being the same, it was about the safety thing. Right now, to put it in gamer terms, it's like being out in a field while nothing is happening. Yes, nothing is happening and you are safe, but there could be snipers out there.

Someone quoted me on the whole army thing, without realizing that in that very sentence he quoted me saying "at this time."

I didn't know the whole Macbook Air thing was a hack he already held back. If this is true, it makes me wonder what sorts of things people know and are holding back.

So, for the last time. Let me clarify what I meant when people keep trying to bring it back to my words done without doublechecking and editing. So in case you didn't realize, I've already retracted the original statement you keep coming back to. The experience I get from a Mac PC and a Windows PC are not as different as Apple ever wants to claim. All OS's are stable, Apple just seems to be more, but it's not rock-hard. I've played with the hardware the same way, the user input is the same. The way how I execute many tasks are the same (save for Office 2008, that interface confuses me after moving from 2003). There are a LOT of key differences between the two OS's, too much to even list, but that doesn't mean that I still don't get somewhat of a similar experience. I said that in the end, it's all subjective at this point. The way how I got so fluent at OSX and was able to do a lot of things is because of what I know about computers and how they work. When I was being looked at by Apple's genius position (it was either that or *shudder* Geek Squad), I had almost zero interaction with the OS but got many things right just because a lot of the problems sounds like the same problems Windows would get until it gets down to the way HOW the OS works with Unix coding. What I'm looking for, when I say a different experience, is essentially what Nintendo's Wii did for the gaming industry.

If you're just going to antagonize this, it's not going to be pretty for either of us and I'm sure the mods are thinking the manner in which we're speaking is going towards a border. Calm down. So someone said the experience he's getting from one OS is not so much different than the other. People quote and now everybody is getting insulted or fired up in their talking. Calm. The heck. Down.

[edit] Forgot to mention that, according to this, OS X had more exploits than Vista and XP combined in 2007: http://blogs.zdnet.com/security/?p=758

 

[dtravis7]

I do agree that the Wii interface is very nice and I like it a lot.

I am not sure though how a totally different interface for an OS would go over with most people. I'm sure one will come down the road, but people are so used to the basics of the Windows type interface. I would welcome something totally different just to give me a challenge, but a lot of just normal people would be so confused by something totally new it might not go well for them.

Everyone, lets keep this discussion Civil. I am not blaming anyone but it's getting a bit heated.

 

[rsmithgi]

Every time I see a forum comment about the Windows Blue Screen of Death, someone jumps in proclaiming 'Get a Mac'. Well I have a PowerBook Pro (Fully patched Leopard) that I'm struggling to learn. In the past few weeks I have seen more irritating hard lockups than I have witnessed on all three of my XP machines in the last two years.

Now I freely admit I don't know always know what I'm doing but if this machine is really as stable as the zealots claim, there shouldn't be too many ways I can break it. I mean that spinning pinwheel that prevents me from reaching the Force Quit menu is every bit as maddening as the infamous Windows blue screen.

I don't 'Love my Mac'.

--- CHAS

You don't really explain what you are doing to the machine that is making it unstable. If you are using an account with administrator privileges, you will have plenty of ability to break things. IMO, that is not a stability issue. It is an issue with the operator not alway knowing what they are doing.

IMO, there are three valid issue that people generally encounter with XP.

1. Viruses, malware, etc. Whether you have had problems with these does not change the fact that many, many people have problems with this issue. A whole software industry exists for this very reason. Users who are less experienced with the proper security procedures can easily get into trouble. It's not all Microsoft's fault, but it is a reality. MS has been slow to recognize how easy it is to misuse some of their technologies (ActiveX, VBA to name just 2).

2. Stability. There are real issues with stability due to the openness of the HW & SW platform. There are a larger variety of combinations of HW/SW/device drivers/DLLs etc, etc that must be handled by the OS. This leads to problems. Again, not all MS's fault but a reality. MS has contributed to this with some of their blunders (the registry is an abomination).

3. Useability. IMO, OS X simply provides a more consistent, usable interface. The interface is better designed. Again, part of this is due to the multiple vendors that are involved. Here is a typical example of what I have talking about:

I have a windows laptop (IBM T42) as well as a MacBook. Here are my experiences with regard to using an external monitor with both OSes.

- when I attach an external monitor to the MacBook, the external display is automatically used. No Fn-key sequences needed to activate the display. When I connect an external monitor to the IBM, nothing happens. I need to tell the laptop to use the display.

- On the mac I setup the external display to be the primary display and setup the laptop display as an extended desktop. All on a simple, easy to understand dialog. When I unplug the external monitor, the mac automatically switches back to using the laptop display only. When I plug the external monitor back in, it automatically switches back to how I had set it up.

- On the PC, I needed to navigate between two dialog boxes, Display Properties and Advanced Display properties. The first has 5 tabs, the second has THIRTEEN TABS. What the heck? Some of the tabs look like they were designed on a different planet. You can turn on the extended desktop in the first dialog but cannot select which monitor should be the primary display. You have to wade through the THIRTEEN tabs to find one that allows you to select the external monitor as the primary display. When I unplug the external monitor, no automatic switching happens. The laptop just has no primary display. When you select display setting by right clicking on the empty desktop, the dialog box appears on the MISSING DISPLAY!!! Nice and helpful.

I shutdown the computer with the external monitor set as the primary display. When I started up again, I have to re-enable the extended desktop. It remembers to use the external as the primary (sometimes). To switch back to using the laptop screen as the primary display, you have to go back to the thirteen tab dialog box.

The windows interface is pathetic compared to the Mac interface. There are dialog boxes created by Microsoft, ATI, and IBM all trying to "help" the user. None of them look or act like each other.

During my testing, the Fn-F7 sequence just stopped working. When I rebooted, it worked again....


I have no doubt that if Microsoft controlled the HW and SW to the degree that Apple does, XP would be as stable as OS X. If they hired Apple's design team, they could make XP as usable.

Right now, in my experience, OS X is more secure, more stable, and more usable. BTW, I switched to the Mac 2 years ago after more than 20 years of DOS/Windows. I have 23 years of experience in the software development industry on a variety of OSes (Linux, Windows, Solaris, OS X, VMS, etc).

 

[EGGO]

I can agree to what rsmithgi said. I never used the Fn keys but that's because my laptop is a vista machine (ick) and I just had to right click to have it go to the monitor.

 

[rsmithgi]

Here is a post that I wrote on another forum a while back. Sums up my feelings on switching to the Mac.

I used DOS/windows for over twenty years. I made the switch at work almost two years ago. Any computers that I buy for home will be Macs. I had no problems switching. I have also used Linux, Solaris, and several flavors of Unix. I am in the software engineering field and read about computers quite a bit so I picked up the Mac within a few days.

Here are some of the things I like (in no particular order).

1. No registry. The registry is an abomination. It is so bad that a whole new category of software (registry cleaners) has sprung up to fix it.

2. Windows networking (yes WINDOWS networking) works better and faster on a Mac.

3. No stripped down versions of the OS. XP Home is missing some important features and Vista continues the trend.

4. Viruses, spyware, malware, etc. A big pain in the butt. Even if you have never been infected, you have to deal with them and you probably know someone who has been infected. I have fixed infected computers for seven or eight different people.

5. Sleep modes works faster and seamlessly. I almost never shutdown. I put my macbook to sleep at work and wake it at home and presto it just works. WIFI, bluetooth, printers, network connects all just switch to the correct settings. All within 10 seconds.

6. Dual mode display with an external monitor works better.

7. Expose, spaces, and Dashboard widgets work great (since copied by Vista)

8. Spotlight works great (since copied by Vista)

9. I really like Unix as an OS and OS X is based on BSD.

10. Professional quality development tools for free.

11. Installing and uninstalling applications is a breeze.

12. iLife is a blast.

13. Since it is based on Unix, it has a real command line. Microsoft should be shot for not providing a bash shell on windows.

14. I hate drive letters.

15. Fewer HW and SW incompatibilities. The big advantage that the windows community enjoys with the wide variety of HW comes at a price.

16. Much better integration between various aspects of the system. The user experience is more consistent on the Mac.

17. Front Row is really nice.

 

[Mitcherooney]

HIPAR

re the problem...

I mean that spinning pinwheel that prevents me from reaching the Force Quit menu is every bit as maddening as the infamous Windows blue screen.

First click on the desktop and then the magic arrow will appear. You'll find 'Force Quit' in the usual location. The problem is that if something is hanging up, you need to follow the above procedure in order to......proceed (Gulp)

Cheers Mitcherooney

 

[HIPAR]

You don't really explain what you are doing to the machine that is making it unstable. If you are using an account with administrator privileges, you will have plenty of ability to break things. IMO, that is not a stability issue. It is an issue with the operator not alway knowing what they are doing. ...

I've been reading through your and the others comments.

Way back around post #26 I outlined myself as a user who likes to explore. I'm an administrator because I'm the only user and I don't like my computer insisting I don't have permissions to do something while exploring. So I have hung the entire system making syntax errors entering commands into the terminal while trying examples from an OS X book I bought or often from a basic misunderstanding of what something is supposed to do. Granted most users don't do that kind of thing but I'll contend it is a stability problem for not having trapped an error propagating through the system. UNIX is supposed to do those kinds of things well. I have also seen a numerous random total lockups with only the Finder Window running while I'm doing nothing more exotic but clicking or dragging.

Maybe an application install has broken something. I have installed iWork, FireFox, a navigation program called GPS NavX and a USB driver for its GPS receiver. I have experimented with a Parallels virtual machine running Windows 2000 for some legacy Windows apps. I saw a couple of 'kernel panics' before I got that running. Did that break something?

I have no problem with the OS X Graphical Interface. I'm still learning my way around it and I agree its somewhat more logically organized out of the box than the other major OS. It's also very 'pretty'. The machine set itself up remarkably well out of the box but I found myself in a situation that isn't very intuitive networking with my Windows machines; OK I got it working with some help from the Web after a crash or two in the process.

I don't believe I inadvertently installed malware, but again I don't know what's normal in the list of running processes.

As an aside, I'll comment briefly on that messy Windows registry:

Windows introduced its registry for storing interface data for Com Automation/ActiveX ; a very useful advanced and innovative technology that OS X doesn't do. This is one area where we are literally comparing Apples to some other kind of fruit.

I guess with computers and all things technical, individual results tend to vary with individual expectations.

--- CHAS