DC beltway crash

walmartconnect · Jun 2, 2007

That read like it stung. Good post fleurya.

fleurya · Jun 2, 2007

I guess I get a little too blunt sometimes. I've just been in a bad mood all day. I suppose I could find a nicer way to say things at times.

scooter · Jun 3, 2007

IMHO it all comes down to balance of when to or not to continue a pursuit. when a situation looks to be getting out of hand, it is time to step back and reasses the situation from a non-emotional standpoint. many police departments are adopting this policy simply because there has been to much carnage in high speed chases. if a person is speeding and a cruiser gives chase and the speeder attempts to get away, then the situation could potentially get out of control very fast. what is more pressing, a ticket of a traffic accident possibly involving fatalities. yes, the speeder is breaking the law and futher compounding it by trying to flee. but compared to what happened in the DC beltway, the police officer is at fault for the resulting accident whatever the fleeing perp. was suspecting of being responsible for. this potential escalation of force was not justified at the time. i feel bad for the officer but he/she is responsible for their own actions. he/she chose to pursue the other bike and in doing so inadvertantly caused a major accident. might there have been alternatives to the pursuit, like calling in air support? following behind at a much reduced rate while organizing other units? (if not actively pursued I would guess the bike might have slowed down to a safer speed)

back on topic, profiling happens all the time. it can suck when you are part of the profile but that method, when used correctly and legally, has caught many of those it was set to catch. it can be annoying but it doesn't violate any of my basic rights so i would have little to legitimately complain about other than the loss of time.

Village Idiot · Jun 4, 2007

eric said:
eek! it's that kind of talk from people, in cars or on bikes that makes me nervous, and shows me the kind of mindset that should be kept off the road.

it's just like people who say, "i'm not going fast, i can be on my phone and everything will be perfectly fine." it's about coming too close to that edge and not leaving a buffer. whether it be concentration, tire grip, or talent.

i guess, feel free to ride however you want when you're alone on the road. that's up to you and whatever relatives may have to identify the body. but when you're sharing the road with others just keep in mind that you are no better than anyone else; your destination is not any more or less important than anyone else's. also there is a reason they call them accidents and there's also a reason they call them donorcycles.

Well, there's facts that say you drive like crap when on a cell phone in a 3500lb car and facts that support that a 350lb motorcycle can do 0-60 in less than 3 seconds and 60-0 in about 116ft, where as the only cars that can come close to that performance are about $500,000US.

It's also a danger being followed by cagers that don't under stand this. If I have to make a panic stop, I garantee that 1/2 the people that follow me while I'm on the bike would run me over. That's why I try and give myself plenty of room. Being able to accelerate that fast does help.

When sharing the road with others, I have to be twice as careful for every one that's not watching where their going and who are out to get me (because this is the mentality that most motorcyclist who ride for more than several years and are still alive have). I don't have anything but a bit of leather and a helmet to protect me if I go down. I'm fine if I slide for 50 yards or so, but if I happen to hit an object like a tree, a gaurd rail, or that other car, it's going to hurt.

I've totaled one bike in the past 9 years. I had the rigt of way and an old man ran a stop sign from a cross street. I t-boned his car doing about 15-20 mph according to the police and I was doing about 30-35mph just a few feet earlier. If I would have been in a car, I probably would have hit him going 30-35 mph. I managed to do $7600 in damages to a $5600 bike. Fortunately I limped away with just a spraigned ankle. Of course you can probably guess his excuse - "I didn't even see him until he hit me." I think that's the number one excuse there is for motorcycle vs car collisions.

The reason they're called donor cycles are because inexperienced people, normally <25 year olds buy super sports, bikes which are under $10k and perform like $500k cars, as their first bike. Usually experienced riders reccomend against this, just go to any sane motorcycle board and look in any "Which 600cc race rep should I get as a first bike" thread. They're more concerned about looks and impressing the opposite sex than learning how to ride and they often kill themselves due to motorcycle > experience need to ride.

Village Idiot · Jun 4, 2007

walmartconnect said:
One of the biggest fears in law enforcement is liability issues. Many chases are called off not because the cop can't keep up with the criminal, but that the cop is too afraid that an accident will occur.

Police can be sued if the crook gets into an accident because someone (even said criminal) can say "Well, the police officer was forcing the criminal to drive wrecklessly."

Perhaps the officer in this situation made a bad move by not backing off and should be disciplined accordingly. No one seems to notice or care, however, that another criminal is out on the streets, one that clearly has no regard for innocent lives around him.

However, as usual, blame the cop, blah blah blah.

If I were riding a bike through DC and was pulled over because of its color, I really wouldn't care; they're just doing there job.

Some police are egotistical, depending on where you live, some maybe more than others. They were filming a Cops show in the town I live in where there was a pursuit. The police chasing the perp hit another car in the process and caused a fatality. Do you think that maybe if there wasn't a camera on them, they might have acted differently?

MUDCRABS said:
Well here in OZ the police do terminate pursuits at high speed and 'Let them get away
Now that's real bright don't you think

"Hey there is a copper up my clacker what shall I do"
Mate
"just drive faster and they will call the chase off"

If that happened out your way you will be breeding boy racers in abundance ;D

fleurya said:
So all anybody violating a traffic law should do is speed away and they get away with it? Doesn't sound right to me. Cops have to pursue criminals or more criminal activity will happen. 99.9999% of the time, nothing happens, but mistakes do happen. We are all human behind the wheel, badge or not.

Maybe he was just trying to get the license plate number before breaking the pursuit and didn't get it before the accident. That's another reason for the vague description.

Funny, you complain about people generalizing negative traits on bikers, then you go and do it to cops! In the same sentence that you admit you only know a few cops and have limited knowledge of them, you claim many cops have an ego problem. Even if you only mean within the cops you know, you're still trying to put a generalization out there. If you admit you have very limited knowledge about the attitudes of police in general, you can't use it to strengthen your argument.

The one problem with chasing sport bikes is that there is no way a police officer can catch them. Even if they're on another sport bike the most they can do is pursue and get a tag number. Trying to hear much at over 100mph is hard. 150+, forget it. You have to wear ear plugs to keep from going deaf. A sport bike being chased through belt way traffic is faster, smaller, and more manuverable than a crown vic will ever be. The only advantage the cop has if flashing lights and the hope that people will get out of his way. The sport bike doesn't need people to get out of his way. Is it right? No. But why put others at risk when you know you have no chance in (bleep) of ever catching the person. I mean, radios and helicopters are a much, much better tool for catching a fleeing sport biker.

The best way to take care of the situation in my opinion is graduated licensing. That could possibly equal less deaths and more responsible riders. It's bad enough that half the people that go out and buy bikes never to even get a permit, let alone an endorsement on their license.

Kar98 · Jun 4, 2007

walmartconnect said:
Just because someone's crime isn't a "violent" one doesn't mean that it shouldn't be overlooked. Someone that flies through traffic at 90mph may not have any ill intentions, but I guarantee that he/she can very easily ruin a family of four's lives without even wanting to.

Yes, and so could a shingle falling off a house. I can guarantee you that 90mph is a perfectly safe driving speed, in fact my driving instructor even _made_ me go 100mph back in the day.

The problem with driving faster than the US speed limits isn't the speed per se, but faulty equipment, lack of training, crappy roads and other drivers simply not expecting you to go that fast, and being unable to actually judge your speed. But I /have/ been let go with nothing but a written warning before, after having been pulled over for doing 99 in a 65, after the trooper realized I learned to drive on the Autobahn

fleurya · Jun 4, 2007

Kar98 said:
Yes, and so could a shingle falling off a house. I can guarantee you that 90mph is a perfectly safe driving speed, in fact my driving instructor even _made_ me go 100mph back in the day.

The problem with driving faster than the US speed limits isn't the speed per se, but faulty equipment, lack of training, crappy roads and other drivers simply not expecting you to go that fast, and being unable to actually judge your speed. But I /have/ been let go with nothing but a written warning before, after having been pulled over for doing 99 in a 65, after the trooper realized I learned to drive on the Autobahn

So you think you're justified in going that fast. Among the problems with speeding you mentioned, you only have control over one of those factors. What about the others? You're just not concerned with them or you think you're special and they won't affect you?

There's a reason they're called accidents. I don't think people go out and say, "I think I'll go out an cause a 10 car pile-up today." Here's an example. I was approaching a truck hauling pallets on the interstate; I was going 65 and he was going 60 or 55. Suddenly, one of the pallets comes off and I'm heading right for it, but I was able to get out of the way safely. If I was going 99 like you, not only would I have been a lot closer when it came off, but going too fast to avoid it safely.

Another time I was driving on a 2 lane and I was driving perfectly safely and within the speed limit. But that didn't stop a guy coming from the other direction from swerving immediately in front of me and causing a head-on collision. I got the worst of it with many broken bones, and it's a miracle I even lived, but if I had been "safely" driving 30 mph over the speed limit, I'm sure I would have died.

Issues like these will always come up, and driving faster just multiplies the danger. I don't give much credit to people who learned to drive on the Autobahn either. The worst accidents I've ever seen have happened on the Autobahn.

eric · Jun 4, 2007

agreed with much that you've said fleurya. and the kids just won't get it. they won't even admit to any danger, they just seem bent on proving that it can be safe.

and VI, as much as you don't want someone to hit you, having a couple fractions of an inch of sheet steel and plastic between me and another vehicle (and odds are it will be considerably larger), does not make me feel like i want to get tagged either, especially with my 2 year old in the back.

i also know there are responsible drivers out there, and again, as i keep saying, no matter how many wheels you have, there are safe drivers and morons. and a lack of wheels should NOT give one immunity from the law.

Brown Study · Jun 4, 2007

I've been in more than a few car crashes, as a driver and as a passenger.

I've been hit by drunks, one of whom rear-ended me at a red light, totalling my car and his, and damaging three in front of me; by a guy backing out of his snow-drifted driveway with mounains of it piled up at the driveway entrance so he couldn't see, roaring into the street at full speed in reverse; by a gravel truck pulling out from a stop sign onto a four-lane and shearing off the entire right side of my car; by an old man with Alzheimer's; T-boned by a kid speeding through a red light; and when stopped for a red light, by a more than half-naked man (with his nearly naked girlfriend) who hit me at 30 mph (no one teaches defensive driving for that one).

None of the crashes was my fault and none involved a bike. All of them involved idiots (one, literally) in cars.

How many people reading this thread have been in collisions with cars and how many with bikes?

Village Idiot · Jun 4, 2007

fleurya said:
So you think you're justified in going that fast. Among the problems with speeding you mentioned, you only have control over one of those factors. What about the others? You're just not concerned with them or you think you're special and they won't affect you?

There's a reason they're called accidents. I don't think people go out and say, "I think I'll go out an cause a 10 car pile-up today." Here's an example. I was approaching a truck hauling pallets on the interstate; I was going 65 and he was going 60 or 55. Suddenly, one of the pallets comes off and I'm heading right for it, but I was able to get out of the way safely. If I was going 99 like you, not only would I have been a lot closer when it came off, but going too fast to avoid it safely.

Another time I was driving on a 2 lane and I was driving perfectly safely and within the speed limit. But that didn't stop a guy coming from the other direction from swerving immediately in front of me and causing a head-on collision. I got the worst of it with many broken bones, and it's a miracle I even lived, but if I had been "safely" driving 30 mph over the speed limit, I'm sure I would have died.

Issues like these will always come up, and driving faster just multiplies the danger. I don't give much credit to people who learned to drive on the Autobahn either. The worst accidents I've ever seen have happened on the Autobahn.

Actually, if you were going faster you would have passed the sheet metal truck and been past the guy that swerved at you...so it would have been safer

Say a bike is going 100mph and a car is going 100mph. The bike can manuver better and stop faster than the car unless the car is an expensive sport car. Even then, the bike is smaller and has more room to move.

And even though there are bad accidents on the autobahn, there are fewer accidents. If the US's highways worked similar, even with a speed limit, it would help stop aggresive driving and wrecks. How many times have you been stuck behing a car on a highway that's in the left lane pacing the traffic going slow in the right? If there was a national law, or the state laws that prohibit just cruising in the left lane were enforced, then traffic would move smoother and people wouldn't get angry at getting stuck behind some one that's holding up traffic or doing something they shouldn't be doing in the first place...

Brown Study said:
I've been in more than a few car crashes, as a driver and as a passenger.

I've been hit by drunks, one of whom rear-ended me at a red light, totalling my car and his, and damaging three in front of me; by a guy backing out of his snow-drifted driveway with mounains of it piled up at the driveway entrance so he couldn't see, roaring into the street at full speed in reverse; by a gravel truck pulling out from a stop sign onto a four-lane and shearing off the entire right side of my car; by an old man with Alzheimer's; T-boned by a kid speeding through a red light; and when stopped for a red light, by a more than half-naked man (with his nearly naked girlfriend) who hit me at 30 mph (no one teaches defensive driving for that one).

None of the crashes was my fault and none involved a bike. All of them involved idiots (one, literally) in cars.

How many people reading this thread have been in collisions with cars and how many with bikes?

The two main contributions to motorcycle accidents are alcohol and cagers not paying attention.

fleurya · Jun 4, 2007

Besides my specific examples, these situations can come up where a person driving 30 mph over the speed limit in the exact same time as I was and the outcome would be much different.

Say a bike is going 100mph and a car is going 100mph. The bike can manuver better and stop faster than the car unless the car is an expensive sport car. Even then, the bike is smaller and has more room to move.

I'll make sure this quote is put on your tombstone.

Someone on this thread said it best: The biggest killer is overconfidence.

Village Idiot · Jun 4, 2007

fleurya said:
Besides my specific examples, these situations can come up where a person driving 30 mph over the speed limit in the exact same time as I was and the outcome would be much different.

I'll make sure this quote is put on your tombstone.

Someone on this thread said it best: The biggest killer is overconfidence.

Sorry to disappoint, but I don't weave in and out of traffic at 100mph. But to prove this point, the bike that was being chased swerved infront of a car. The cop tried to follow, and didn't make it. 350lb bike that's 2 feet wide > 3500 crown vic that's 6-7ft wide.

scooter · Jun 4, 2007

fleurya said:
I don't give much credit to people who learned to drive on the Autobahn either. The worst accidents I've ever seen have happened on the Autobahn.

whoa, that is a misconception! the autobahn is probably the safest road in all of europe. just to get a license is Germany makes our american licenses worthless. i have driven on the autobahn and found the folks on it driving safely and courteously. there were many people who were going much faster than i was but i didn't drift into the left lane very often since that is a high speed passing lane. if american drivers could get it through their thick skulls that the left lane is for passing only then many accidents and incidents of road rage could be stopped. there are too many "safe" drivers out there on the highways and freeways poking along at the speed limit of 60-70 when all traffic around them is going 70-90. now who is going to cause the accident?

also i have a lot of friends who own bikes. only a few sports bikes in that crowd so they are mostly cruisers. they are some of the safest drivers simply because they have to be. if there is light traffic they can get up and going faster than i would, but they have a better situational awareness than most other drivers. they have to respond to idiots rather than having idiots respond to them. in fact, most time i see bike riders in the right hand lanes doing the speed limit while some souped up import honda (who has watched to much the fast and the furious) zipping around with his/her cronies and other such cars, cutting people off and just being plain idiots.

fleurya · Jun 4, 2007

there are too many "safe" drivers out there on the highways and freeways poking along at the speed limit of 60-70 when all traffic around them is going 70-90. now who is going to cause the accident?

Umm, the guys going 70-90, because the other drivers are going THE SPEED LIMIT!!

scooter · Jun 4, 2007

fleurya said:
Umm, the guys going 70-90, because the other drivers are going THE SPEED LIMIT!!

not in a million years buddy.

in fact, the slow poke will most like get pulled over and cited for creating a dangerous driving situation. (got that from a Washington State Patrol trooper);P

cops keep and eye out for those who are different than the crowd. (IE profiling) if you are speeding and the rest are not, then you are the oddball. if everyone else is speeding and you are not, then once again you are the oddball. basic message here is: do what everyone else is and you should be safe whether that is speeding or obeying the speed limit. the one who is different causes the problem.

fleurya · Jun 5, 2007

You show me one example where someone actually had to pay a ticket for driving within the legal speed limit, just one. There are people ticketed for driving too slow, but that's a different story. That's like driving 30 in a 65 zone, not 60 in a 65 zone.

I mean, what's the cop going to say "I know the state has issued a legal speed limit for this road and it's law, but everyone else is breaking the law so you have to also."

Ok, maybe some nut job would issue a ticket, but it would never, EVER hold up in court. That same cop in court, "Well judge, everyone else around me was breaking the law, but this joker thought he would actually drive the legal limit! That had to be stopped. I ticketed the guy driving the legal limit and let the law breakers go."

I'm sure that would happen.

scooter · Jun 5, 2007

RCW 46.61.500
Reckless driving — Penalty.

(1) Any person who drives any vehicle in willful or wanton disregard for the safety of persons or property is guilty of reckless driving. Violation of the provisions of this section is a gross misdemeanor punishable by imprisonment of not more than one year and by a fine of not more than five thousand dollars.

(2) The license or permit to drive or any nonresident privilege of any person convicted of reckless driving shall be suspended by the department for not less than thirty days.

http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=46.61.500

usually this is used against drunks or speeders, but has been used against those not following with the rest of traffic.

RCW 46.61.525
Negligent driving — Second degree.

(1)(a) A person is guilty of negligent driving in the second degree if, under circumstances not constituting negligent driving in the first degree, he or she operates a motor vehicle in a manner that is both negligent and endangers or is likely to endanger any person or property.

(b) It is an affirmative defense to negligent driving in the second degree that must be proved by the defendant by a preponderance of the evidence, that the driver was operating the motor vehicle on private property with the consent of the owner in a manner consistent with the owner's consent.

(c) Negligent driving in the second degree is a traffic infraction and is subject to a penalty of two hundred fifty dollars.

(2) For the purposes of this section, "negligent" means the failure to exercise ordinary care, and is the doing of some act that a reasonably careful person would not do under the same or similar circumstances or the failure to do something that a reasonably careful person would do under the same or similar circumstances.

(3) Any act prohibited by this section that also constitutes a crime under any other law of this state may be the basis of prosecution under such other law notwithstanding that it may also be the basis for prosecution under this section.

http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=46.61.525

Negligent driving — In the First Degree has to do with drunk driving or driving under the influence of something.

granted, the likelyhood of this happening is small but it has happened. the same State Trooper I spoke of earlier confirms that this happens. he has given two tickets himself for this on I-90 near Seattle. (he didn't say if they took the tickets to court or if they actually paid though)

Brown Study · Jun 5, 2007

I think that's more likely if the car was being driven under the posted minimum limit.

Kar98 · Jun 5, 2007

fleurya said:
So you think you're justified in going that fast.

Nope, but I can handle it.

Among the problems with speeding you mentioned, you only have control over one of those factors. What about the others?

I do in fact control speed, my equipment and training; and crappy roads and other drivers can be taken into account.

There's a reason they're called accidents. I don't think people go out and say, "I think I'll go out an cause a 10 car pile-up today." Here's an example. I was approaching a truck hauling pallets on the interstate; I was going 65 and he was going 60 or 55. Suddenly, one of the pallets comes off and I'm heading right for it, but I was able to get out of the way safely. If I was going 99 like you, not only would I have been a lot closer when it came off, but going too fast to avoid it safely.

Keep a safe distance according to your speed and keep your eyes peeled.

I don't give much credit to people who learned to drive on the Autobahn either. The worst accidents I've ever seen have happened on the Autobahn.

Nonetheless it's the fastest AND safest road system in the world.

fleurya · Jun 5, 2007

scooter said:
http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=46.61.500

usually this is used against drunks or speeders, but has been used against those not following with the rest of traffic.

http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=46.61.525

Negligent driving — In the First Degree has to do with drunk driving or driving under the influence of something.

granted, the likelyhood of this happening is small but it has happened. the same State Trooper I spoke of earlier confirms that this happens. he has given two tickets himself for this on I-90 near Seattle. (he didn't say if they took the tickets to court or if they actually paid though)

What was the posted speed limits for those cases and what was the speed they were actually driving?

That's all well and good for people who drive recklessly like not using a turn signal, serve around, drive way over the posted speed limit, or any other number or reckless things in their car. Nobody will ever have to pay a ticket for driving safely at the speed limit. That information does nothing to prove your point. It would only prove that speeding drivers would be liable for an accident because driving over the speed limit is consider reckless driving, not following the speed limit

You claim cops have given tickets, but have the drivers ever actually paid. If they didn't contest it, they are pretty pathetic and stupid for doing so. No judge would ever make someone pay under those conditions. It would completely undermine all traffic laws, setting a president allowing people to drive whatever speed they want and get away with it. If I cop ever gave me a ticket under those conditions I would literally laugh in his face and tell him I look forward to humiliating him in court.