Apple "Spring Forward" Event

[Checco]

you saying the MagSafe is Aging tech? Ever trip over your power adapter cord on a PC and have it hit the ground?

No, not the MagSafe. But in my view, the aim of the MB is to run unplugged when in use and charge on the desk at night - it's ultra-portable, think iPad. Primary function trumps it.

Please tell me you're kidding.

Nope. Of course they want to make some profit (is that not the definition of what a business is?), but it's not this sinister profit-above-all as is portrayed.

 

[vansmith]

Do you have have a clue as to the time, effort, thought and money it takes to design a notebook like that?

I could spend a whole lot of time and effort making a loaf of bread that tastes disgusting. Suffice it to say, effort and time do not correspond perfectly to quality nor should that ever be an excuse or reason to be insulated from critique.

There are many better alternatives if short-term profit what Apple is after.

Perhaps but I don't see how that discredits my suggestion that profit is the ultimate goal. After all, this is a corporation and corporations do not make things for any reason other than to make money.

This is clearly the first Apple product that:

a. Isn't cheap.

No it's not. In fact, we've been discussing the cost of the Apple Watch in this very thread and that's hardly the only example.

b. Takes "bold" steps in omitting aging technology.

No it's not. One example is the removal of the optical drive a couple of years back.

c. Adds new features that provide a better experience.

At best, that's a subjective assertion. In fact, I could very well argue that the remove of every port but one (and one that is hardly supported all that well right now) makes this a significantly less enjoyable experience in the short term.

d. Is made well, using quality materials.

Are you saying that Apple has never made a quality product before?

Since it's so unique wrt the above, this MacBook must have profit written all over it.

At no point did I say that its uniqueness clearly signals that the MB is designed purely for profit. While I do agree that this is designed to generate profit, as is absolutely everything Apple sells, my case has nothing to do with the design of the device itself.

 

[dtravis7]

I keep my ipad and now Note Plugged in when by an outlet. So that does not affect me. They could have easily kept that same size and incorporated the MagSafe still.

 

[Checco]

I could spend a whole lot of time and effort making a loaf of bread that tastes disgusting. Suffice it to say, effort and time do not correspond perfectly to quality nor should that ever be an excuse or reason to be insulated from critique.

You missed the point. Effort and time in my view indicate something deeper than just profit, I.e. The desire to produce a great product.

Perhaps but I don't see how that discredits my suggestion that profit is the ultimate goal. After all, this is a corporation and corporations do not make things for any reason other than to make money.

We've argued this here before. Businesses must make profit, but successful (and lasting) ones are those that do what they do best and let the money follow - I know that first hand. Sure, money is necessary, but it's extremely shallow. If you're truly passionate about anything you'll understand what I mean.

No it's not. In fact, we've been discussing the cost of the Apple Watch in this very thread and that's hardly the only example.

No it's not. One example is the removal of the optical drive a couple of years back.

That's my point: this MB is very much an Apple product.

Are you saying that Apple has never made a quality product before?

No, see above.

At best, that's a subjective assertion. In fact, I could very well argue that the remove of every port but one (and one that is hardly supported all that well right now) makes this a significantly less enjoyable experience in the short term.

Just think about this for a moment. Many people "need" an ultra-portable device that gives a full day of autonomy, which this device does quite nicely. By definition, ultra-portable means that you'll be using it out-and-about and won't need to plug it into 57 peripherals. As I mentioned earlier in the post, I bought an 11" MBA specifically for this purpose. I chose the 11" over the 13" because it's smaller/lighter, i.e. more portable and certainly a dream to carry around when compared to my 15" MBP. Yes, it has fewer ports, way less HP, a smaller screen, etc, but that's exactly why I bought it. I don't think I'm alone in my needs.

A different/new port? Did you forget about the Lightning port? Also, seeing as it is a new port, when would be the appropriate time to adopt it? Chicken and egg.

Now, let's think about the iPad for a second. It's a nice consumption device, but it's quite difficult to be productive on it. Just have a look at the top apps on the App Store, games and more games. Again, I know first hand, because I bought the MBA when I already owned an iPad 4. Plus, sales are dropping - people are staring to see its very real limitations. What the new MB does is bring the two a little closer. The Retina display, new touchpad and compactness of the device make them fairly similar...not to mention a single port. Sure, it costs more, but look at the utility: better display, full (improved) keyboard, touchpad (with a new API), not to mention greater storage space and a full desktop OS.

So in summary then, if you need or prefer desktop-class computers, then the MB is not for you, simple. But that doesn't mean that the MB is a crappy product, people have different needs, desires and requirements, simple.

 

[Checco]

I keep my ipad and now Note Plugged in when by an outlet. So that does not affect me. They could have easily kept that same size and incorporated the MagSafe still.

Possibly. But that would've meant a MagSafe and a USB-C port and in this case, space is at a premium - ultraportable. It's just a different class of computer, as is the iPad...no MagSafe there...

 

[dtravis7]

Prove to me the Macbook can keep up with the i5 and i7 in the Surface Pro 3. I have a graphic designer friend who uses the whole adobe suite. She developed an health issue and needs portability. She was using her 15" RMBP then got the Surface Pro 3. She sees no difference in speed with the Adobe apps doing the very advanced work she does.

I will almost bet $$$ that 1.1 Ghz Mobile cpu in that Macbook would NOT keep up with what she does.

Dell just came out with a very slim machine like the Macbook with 2 usb 3.1c ports, even a card reader, so it can be done and the reviews are quite good on it also.

You can say but it does not run OSX? After Yosemite and all the issues and still WiFi issues after 2 fixes, I am starting not to care anymore if the machine runs OSX or not!

 

[Checco]

Prove to me the Macbook can keep up with the i5 and i7 in the Surface Pro 3. I have a graphic designer friend who uses the whole adobe suite. She developed an health issue and needs portability. She was using her 15" RMBP then got the Surface Pro 3. She sees no difference in speed with the Adobe apps doing the very advanced work she does.

I'm glad to hear that your friend found a solution that works for her. She needed mobility and power and she found it in the Surface, great. But does that means everyone has the same need?

I will almost bet $$$ that 1.1 Ghz Mobile cpu in that Macbook would NOT keep up with what she does.

I agree and would be willing to bet that it will not keep up with an i5 or i7, but like I mentioned, that's not the point. Again, my MBA isn't anywhere near my 15" MBP, but I'm very happy with it for what it's used for. The right tool for the job.

Dell just came out with a very slim machine like the Macbook with 2 usb 3.1c ports, even a card reader, so it can be done and the reviews are quite good on it also.

Good for Dell, probably the only Windows PC maker that I'd consider. Honestly, the second USB port is nice, possibly, but the card reader? I think its value is debatable, as it's likely used by a very small proportion of people. And who would that be? In my view, photographers and again is this type of PC a photo-processing workhorse? In my view a traditional USB would be better value than the card reader.

You can say but it does not run OSX? After Yosemite and all the issues and still WiFi issues after 2 fixes, I am starting not to care anymore if the machine runs OSX or not!

Okay, well then it's clearly not the machine for you. Different people have different tastes and needs, for example the Surface Pro you mentioned: I'd use it as a paperweight or a door stop. But it works for others...

One final point, which is going to create a big storm. I don't have the answer, but I'm going to put the question out there. You seem to have a fairly intense dislike for new Apple products and their OS. For a site that meant to be pro-Apple or for Apple-lovers (bit of both?), is it me or is it strange to have mods/admins that bash the products so much? Sure, objective discussion is what it's all about, but fairly strong dislike...I don't know.

 

[dtravis7]

On your last question, Just because I am staff here does not mean I am blind to facts. I have never been a Cool Aid drinker for either side. Give me stability, reliability and performance and I will stand behind it! That is where in the last especially 1-2 years I have seen Apple slipping.

Also on the Macbook, if the price point was lower, say $800-900 I would not be saying many negative things. For it's price I expect more and will forever miss the mag safe as well as a few other things missing from most macs today.

Another example as I and MANY others have been very hard on the new Minis. Reason? Because for the same price point they are not the machines they used to be a year before. That is very sad. I will say though for $499 for the 1.4 ghz Mini, I still feel if you love OSX and are poor it's a excellent deal. The first Mini was no ground breaker either with that 1.25 Ghz G4 CPU, but for $499 it opened the door for many to try and love OSX (including me as before that machine I had older way obsolete Macs). BUT for $1000 for the top end Mini I am not very happy with it's overall performance for that price.

As far as Yosemite, ask a lot of Devs about the Wifi and other issues. It's very machine specific and only some models are affected. My imac which is early 2008 is not affected at all but my friends much newer I5 13" MBP 2012 is and causes him a lot of pain. Apple is getting sloppy in my view. I have used every single OSX from 10.2 Jaguar from the first day they were released and never seen so many issues that after 2 updates are still there.

BTW, I warned my friend with the MBP to stick with Mavericks will all WiFi issues were solved but he did not listen and did no TM Backup either. Sad.

Also another note, I am a tester for apple and am currently testing 10.10.3 with the new Photos App. I am just being honest at what I see happening and am far from the only one that sees what I am seeing.

 

[cwa107]

One final point, which is going to create a big storm. I don't have the answer, but I'm going to put the question out there. You seem to have a fairly intense dislike for new Apple products and their OS. For a site that meant to be pro-Apple or for Apple-lovers (bit of both?), is it me or is it strange to have mods/admins that bash the products so much? Sure, objective discussion is what it's all about, but fairly strong dislike...I don't know.

The primary reason for this thread is to discuss our reactions to the latest announcement. Some are positive, some are negative. This is an Apple enthusiasts community, not a lemming colony. There's nothing wrong with questioning the direction of the company if we perceive that they're walking off a cliff. Apple is not immune to mistakes and no one wants to see Apple revert back to where it was 20 years ago.

 

[vansmith]

You missed the point. Effort and time in my view indicate something deeper than just profit, I.e. The desire to produce a great product.

Apple is a corporation. Their effort and time are in pursuit of money first, everything else second. You can't survive as a corporation otherwise. Indeed, if profit wasn't their primary motive, their hardware would be significantly cheaper than it actually is. A great example of this is the MacBook Air, a device with a profit margin as high as 37% (depending on configuration). That's magnitudes higher than other companies in the same industry. I'm not saying that this is wrong (indeed, from a business perspective, it ought to be lauded) but rather, it is demonstrative of Apple's desire for the pursuit of profit.

We've argued this here before. Businesses must make profit, but successful (and lasting) ones are those that do what they do best and let the money follow - I know that first hand. Sure, money is necessary, but it's extremely shallow. If you're truly passionate about anything you'll understand what I mean.

Yes, I'm passionate about things but I don't have shareholders behind me demanding that I profit off of those. That's a crucial difference between individual pursuits and corporate ones.

I think it's really dangerous to assume that Apple is special in this regard. In positioning them as such, it insulates them from critique and consequently, they can get away with charging more than they should because "it's a beautiful product that is a consequence of passion."

That's my point: this MB is very much an Apple product.

I'm not really sure how this justifies the price for a glorified netbook.

Just think about this for a moment. Many people "need" an ultra-portable device that gives a full day of autonomy, which this device does quite nicely. By definition, ultra-portable means that you'll be using it out-and-about and won't need to plug it into 57 peripherals. As I mentioned earlier in the post, I bought an 11" MBA specifically for this purpose. I chose the 11" over the 13" because it's smaller/lighter, i.e. more portable and certainly a dream to carry around when compared to my 15" MBP. Yes, it has fewer ports, way less HP, a smaller screen, etc, but that's exactly why I bought it. I don't think I'm alone in my needs.

At no point did I say that there isn't a need for an ultra portable notebook. All I've been arguing is that Apple has introduced an underpowered notebook for the price that they have set. This notebook would be fine if it was half the cost of what it's set at.

A different/new port? Did you forget about the Lightning port? Also, seeing as it is a new port, when would be the appropriate time to adopt it? Chicken and egg.

I don't have any issue with introducing top of the line connectivity. In fact, I think it's great. My issue, as I even made clear, is that there is only one port. One. How am I supposed to hook up a monitor and charge it at the same time? And honestly, if only having one port and then charging nearly $80 for various dongles isn't emblematic of a company seeking money, I don't know what is.

So in summary then, if you need or prefer desktop-class computers, then the MB is not for you, simple. But that doesn't mean that the MB is a crappy product, people have different needs, desires and requirements, simple.

Fair enough and I'm happy to admit that I'm not the target here. That said, I'm still entitled to critiquing it and will continue to do so especially when more capable devices (in crucial ways) are available from Apple (the MBA for example).

 

[Checco]

That's magnitudes higher than other companies in the same industry.

I'm not saying that this is wrong (indeed, from a business perspective, it ought to be lauded) but rather, it is demonstrative of Apple's desire for the pursuit of profit.

I'd call this their ability to sustain those profit margins. Why is this? Great products that people are willing to pay a premium for. You can't will that level of profitability into existence, just ask Samsung. You need to provide something extraordinary.

Yes, I'm passionate about things but I don't have shareholders behind me demanding that I profit off of those. That's a crucial difference between individual pursuits and corporate ones.

I think it's really dangerous to assume that Apple is special in this regard. In positioning them as such, it insulates them from critique and consequently, they can get away with charging more than they should because "it's a beautiful product that is a consequence of passion."

I'm not really sure how this justifies the price for a glorified netbook.

At no point did I say that there isn't a need for an ultra portable notebook. All I've been arguing is that Apple has introduced an underpowered notebook for the price that they have set. This notebook would be fine if it was half the cost of what it's set at.

I don't mean to justify it as a consequence of an almost misguided passion. When we work on our products, we do the absolute best that we can and this is how I see what Apple does. Engineers producing the best possible result that they can, with a specific design goal in mind...and part of the challenge is to make it profitable.

Now let's think about the gloried netbook. What do you think the incremental cost of an additional USB-C port would be? Drop profit from 37% to 35%? If that. Let's take it a little further down the design process. Okay, we want to add a standard USB port and a MagSafe port. Okay, we're going to have to make it thicker than what it is. Oh, but hang on, that means heaps more space for the logic board, batteries, etc. no need to redesign the logic board - we have one, ditto for the battery...it's called a MacBook Air. We've just shaved off how many millions of dollars in R&D? Margins are already wide and no need for costly R&D, win-win, $$$$!

Apple could've produced a slightly slimmed down MBA, but they didn't. They went ultra-slim, while adding a better keyboard and trackpad and putting in a Retina display. Importantly, they also decided against a fan, which to me takes some courage. For ultra-portable, it is preferable...completely solid-state. For sure, part of the trade-off is processing ability, as well as possibly better required efficiency, but here too the old question comes up. What are the targeted users needs? Big processing ability isn't one of them, quite clearly. But since this model won't suit everyone, we'll keep the MBAs and also upgrade them - so customer, the choice is yours.

Sure, now they have the platform for tomorrow, hopefully continuing their profitability. How did the MBA come about? It's evolution...

What I'm getting at is that it was designed for a specific purpose and that design would've cost boat-loads of money, no room for short-term profitability here.

I don't have any issue with introducing top of the line connectivity. In fact, I think it's great. My issue, as I even made clear, is that there is only one port. One. How am I supposed to hook up a monitor and charge it at the same time? And honestly, if only having one port and then charging nearly $80 for various dongles isn't emblematic of a company seeking money, I don't know what is.

I hear you, it can be a point of frustration. But in my view, it's down to design choices again. By Apple providing only a single port, I think that a very high proportion of the target market will be willing to trade ports for the other features. For those that need both, there you go, dongle is there. Once more in my case, I think that the slightly higher cost of the MB with the dongle, in the event I needed one, wouldn't bother me. If I bought it for its specific features, over the life of the product, should we say 3 years, the cost is inconsequential. At a price of $3000 different story, but where it is...? Nah.

Fair enough and I'm happy to admit that I'm not the target here. That said, I'm still entitled to critiquing it and will continue to do so especially when more capable devices (in crucial ways) are available from Apple (the MBA for example).

You are entitled to. You're also right in that the MBA is more capable than the MB. But wait, the 13" MBP is more capable than the MBA...and is also portable. But, the 15"... You make your choices and buy what's right for you. The MB family all do a particular job well and all have their target markets...

 

[IWT]

There is an ancient joke from way-back which goes something like this:

An old man is walking along the road laden down by 2 large suitcases. A young chap approaches him and says " can I help you with these?". "No, thank you. See this watch on my wrist. It can tell the time in Tokyo, the weather in San Francisco, solve Fermat's Theorem, it's a calculator, library, everything." Young chap: "And the suitcases?" Old man: "Oh, they're the batteries"

Fast forward 30 years. Young chap showing off his Apple Watch. Old man asks him "what can it do?". Young chap: "nothing, but the battery is so small, it's amazing!"

Ian

 

[pigoo3]

For a site that meant to be pro-Apple or for Apple-lovers (bit of both?), is it me or is it strange to have mods/admins that bash the products so much? Sure, objective discussion is what it's all about, but fairly strong dislike...I don't know.

If someone ONLY says positive things about something they like…and NEVER anything negative or critical…then I wouldn't trust this persons advice or opinions. NOTHING in this world is ALWAYS 100% positive.

Sure…admins, mods, and members on Mac-Forums will occasionally not like something Apple is doing…and we say it. That's a good thing!

- Nick

 

[vansmith]

One final point, which is going to create a big storm. I don't have the answer, but I'm going to put the question out there. You seem to have a fairly intense dislike for new Apple products and their OS. For a site that meant to be pro-Apple or for Apple-lovers (bit of both?), is it me or is it strange to have mods/admins that bash the products so much? Sure, objective discussion is what it's all about, but fairly strong dislike...I don't know.

Perhaps this is a response that only speaks to how I act but I come from a professional environment where critique and analysis are the name of the game. Thus, this is how I conceptualize things. Critiquing doesn't implicitly or explicitly suggest that something is bad, just that it needs improvement. I think what's important to consider here are the two very different meanings of critique: deconstructing something for the purposes of demonstrating how bad something is and deconstructing something for the purposes of betterment and caution (the latter of which is how I approach critique). I like Apple and the major electronic devices I use are one's Apple provide. I critique their products, perhaps more so than other staff members here, because I seek to caution people of very real limits and to offer commentary on what I feel are issues that can be resolved. Perhaps this is why I always attempt to offer references for my claims, a conscious attempt to demonstrate that this isn't personal but rather, is a critique of technical limits.

Suffice it to say, if I were a member of a community in which the leadership was highly enamoured with the "theme" of the community without tempering that love with critique, I'd be genuinely bothered. It's also worth considering the context - we are all here because we like Apple products more so than the average user. This is always an underlying reality in our conversations. Thus, it might be better to read each and every post with the following preface: "we like Apple products and I enjoy using them but...".

 

[TattooedMac]

Here is a great article on WHY Apple is selling a 10K Watch Everything you know about the $10,000 Apple Watch is wrong

 

[vansmith]

I'm not sure that's a very tight argument but I'm willing to admit that this is because I don't let flash and "pizazz" sway me (in fact, I find it very off-putting). That said, it does serve a marketing purpose in that people who have them may laud them which will drive people to buy cheaper ones. In some respects, this goes against my belief that the $10K variant won't be a prominent part of the culture built around the watch but who knows at this point?

 

[chas_m]

Now, let's think about the iPad for a second. It's a nice consumption device, but it's quite difficult to be productive on it.

I am really quite tired of this myth. It is simply not true. I use my iPad (with a bluetooth keyboard) to be productive for a least a few hours a day, nearly every day. I do a metric ton of writing on it -- I in fact PREFER to write on the iPad over the MacBook Pro because the iPad lets me focus better. I now handle ALL my email on the iPad because I can dictate responses so easily, I could possible do this at my desk but why, when I can do it on the couch?

I don't use MS Office much but I used it long enough to know that THE BEST version of it available on an Apple product is on the iPad. At least until Office 2016 comes out for real. And did I mention free? Should I go on to tell you about how popular the iPad is in the enterprise sector? If one cannot be productive on one, how could this possibly be? Hint: it couldn't.

Yes, one can absolutely be MORE productive on a MacBook Pro most of the time, or at least more "multi-tasky" (ask any writer or creative professional how well being more "multi-tasky" works out). I'm sure that's what you meant, really. But please stop with the "difficult to be productive" BS. No, what's (apparently) difficult is for people to use their imaginations a tiny bit and see that this simply isn't true.

So in summary then, if you need or prefer desktop-class computers, then the MB is not for you, simple. But that doesn't mean that the MB is a crappy product, people have different needs, desires and requirements, simple.

I agree with this, but I would argue that the new MacBook is VERY desktop-class for what typical users have need of -- it's a million miles faster at nearly anything short of pro-level apps than my MacBook Pro with 16GB of RAM and a higher-clocked processor, and of course its 2x speed flash storage (1.3GB per second read time, 630MB/sec writes) absolutely smokes my 1TB hard drive. I have an advantage on ports and storage, but on nothing else -- and this is compared to Apple's current "bottom of the line" Mac!

Where I think the problem is is that what you mean by "desktop class" and what most people mean by "desktop class" has changed, and there's a big schism there. Pros need tons of ports and massive amount of storage -- typical users do not, at least not any more. Hard-core gamers need super-powerful video cards, creative pros would need more RAM and other things than the MacBook offers -- but not most other people.

The kind of people who read this forum regularly used to be "the rest of us" from the Apple ads -- the people who sought out quality, the people who appreciated value, the people who rewarded good developers. That's not the "us" Apple is courting anymore (not that they want us to go away). They're courting the mobile generation, who have different needs as you correctly point out. They're the new "rest of us."

 

[dbm]

Here is a great article on WHY Apple is selling a 10K Watch Everything you know about the $10,000 Apple Watch is wrong

That's an interesting perspective, and a very credible one. Most of today's youth seem to idolise musicians, sportsmen and reality-TV 'stars'. They tend to like their bling.

 

[Checco]

Nick and Vansmith, thanks for your answers. I appreciate your approach and you are right, it is important to be objectively critical. I will be honest in saying that my comment wasn't directed at you guys though.

 

[pigoo3]

Nick and Vansmith, thanks for your answers. I appreciate your approach and you are right, it is important to be objectively critical. I will be honest in saying that my comment wasn't directed at you guys though.

It's all good!

For what it's worth I'm not really that crazy about some of the directions Apple is heading. Turning almost every computer model in to a "closed box"…that's not user upgradable (ram & storage)…and removing the optical drive.

I know that things change (computing environment)…and doing these things can help to keep costs down…and helps reduce weight (removing the optical drive)…and helps engineers make things thinner. I can live without being able to upgrade the internal storage (can always use "The Cloud" or use external storage devices). But being able to upgrade the ram was/is always nice. Since we never know what the future will bring. And being able to upgrade ram helps extend the "life" of a computer.

I'm not too crazy about the new MacBooks. I'm actually mostly ok with the design (again another "closed box" computer). The price is just too high for what we get (compared to the low-end MacBook Pro's and MacBook Air's).

The iWatch. I think that I'm on the fence with this one. I'm not really into the chunky/boxy design…it could cost a bit less…and battery life could be better. If it survives…I'm betting version 2 or version 3 will be a lot better (faster/more features…better battery life...better styling...better performance...and cost the same or less). Then I might get one. We'll see.

With the iWatch…Apple has got to innovate. This is the first new product since the iPad. So if it's a success (or not)…it's all good. Got to push the envelope.

- Nick