Yosemite, is it worth it?

[rubaiyat]

I appreciate that everyone has a different workflow and as I acknowledged earlier the first release of the rebuilt iWork suite cut a lot of features a certain minority of people relied on, but as far as I can tell that has all been put back and then some in updates since then. I use Pages and Keynote extensively and don't feel like I'm missing anything.

Not true, hardly anything has been put back, certainly not "and then some".

Of the over 100 still missing features there are so many biggies it is too long to list here. Try facing pages, textbox linking, Outlining, Lists that actually work, true merging, bookmarks, internal templates, etc etc

Worse are all the continuing bugs and confounding problems.

The UI should have been a clean up and simplification, instead it added to the confusion, buried most objects deeper in the structure, if you can find them, and eats up a third of the screen on every single document! Not what I'd call smart at all.

The great thing now is that all those people who struggled with ever finding anything, despite the logical layout of big down to small, now have the perfect excuse. Apple hid them in some truly obscure spot behind UI that gives little to no clue as to what they do.

If they haven't given up yet, maybe a few more changes of file format and incompatibility with previous versions and versions of OSX might do the trick.

It really is software now for people who don't know, never get anything done and everything is beyond them. The perfect fit.

 

[rubaiyat]

You can like it or hate it, but Apple periodically burns the house down and sets about building a new, better house over time. Much wailing and gnashing of teeth for a while, then it all quiets down as the new house eventually beats the pants off the old house.

Apple never burns its own house down, because it really isn't into cyclical, nomadic homelessness. Bad for the bottom line.

It does this to software it doesn't use itself.

Talk to Apple staff and you'll find them using MsOffice and Adobe's suites.

All this stuff is for the schmucks who believe the chin music at the big launches Apple throws every year.

 

[chas_m]

It does this to software it doesn't use itself.

Talk to Apple staff and you'll find them using MsOffice and Adobe's suites.

I will bet you big money I know more people, at more senior levels, at Apple then you do.

They do use those programs you mention -- for things that iWork and Pixelmator weren't designed to do.

But you can bet your last dollar that in point of fact, presentations internally at Apple and presented publicly at keynotes costing tens of millions of dollars are done with Keynote. Reports are done in Pages. Charts and spreads are done in Numbers unless there's a specific need to use some function in Excel that isn't available.

Apple eats their own dogfood. In fact, it is a company rule. So, simply put, your claim is BS.

 

[rubaiyat]

I call your BS. I was a VAR for Apple for several years.

Go through their websites. They don't run their own software it is nearly all Linux. Go through their documents, reports, manuals and publicity and see what they are made with. I've even met Apple staff who flatly admit they use PCs and Windows not Macs. One was employed on our local Genius Bar. Apple has actually recruited them to talk to fellow PC users.

Speak to staff about these problems and there is a very good reason they pass you onto someone "who might know".

One of the first things Apple tries to sell you in the Apple Store or any retail outlet is Ms Office for Mac.

It is quite clear, in fact absolutely totally clear from everything you've said that you know very little about about the iWork software, either the prior versions or the current versions except on a superficial level.

Keynote is probably the only software Apple actually actively uses, but everything else, not a hope unless there are a few keen individuals, who like me value them for what they are.

I believe this unholy mess that Apple created is precisely because none of the senior staff are even aware of what this software can do. Trashing it meant nothing to them. They didn't even know it was trashing users files when it was sprung on users back last year, until it all blew up in their faces.

PS Just one example easily checked. All the iWork and other Apple software manuals were created with Indesign CS. You can read it in the pdf file Info.

 

[chas_m]

So you've never worked for Apple directly. As I have.

So you're not operating from a basis of fact, only half-truths (yes, Apple have people who work on PCs. Are you not aware they make software for Windows??). Looking at your other posts, I can see your agenda.

Let me know the next time you talk to Tim and ask him about what software he uses. Till then, we're done here.

 

[rubaiyat]

And let me know when you have finally brushed up on iWork.

That will be really illuminating.

 

[gc916]

I've seen a few unhappy comments on Yosemite.

Most times, there will always be some negative comment, which may or may not apply to the person reading it, so it's important to decide how much that statement applies or not. If there are many more positive ones, I weigh them against the fewer negative ones, also.

I've seen some comments claiming that many reviews are faked, mainly the positive stuff, so we have that to contend with, too, so look in more than one place; if it's software, look in various forums and tech magazines.

I think it's worth noting that Apple's own Support Communities contain a thread regarding Yosemite WiFi / Connectivity issues. As of today, the thread has had more than 450,000 views, and contains 1,700 replies. The stats indicate to me that there is definitely a problem with Yosemite, yet the editors of some prominent Mac-centric websites / forums have devoted minimal attention to the issue.

 

[vansmith]

Fair enough, my use isn't very collaborative so the compatibility with MS Office is a non-issue with me. I was *ECSTATIC* about the direction Apple has gone with iWork (no more "inspector," have always hated that UI form since Macromedia days), crucially and particularly in that I can work on documents on any of my iOS devices or the web if I'm not near my own Mac (that flat-out didn't work well in the old version of iWork).

Oh absolutely, this is very much a "what do other people use" scenario in which other people are necessary to consider. Do other people use Pages and/or does it matter what they're using? Go with Pages. Are they using Word and/or does it matter? You can use Word. The only benefit to me with Word (aside from the fact that everyone uses it) is that referencing software that is nearly essential only works with Word. If it worked with Pages, I'd give it a try for personal projects (because Word has its own set of frustrations that I put up with).

Speaking to the collaborative bit, it looks as though Apple has improved the collaboration features in iWork. Have you given those a spin?

I created a series of City Guides and lots of user manuals in Pages '09 because it was so fast for those tasks. I have tried to do the same in MsWord and LibreOffice, Indesign, Quark XPress and Swift Publishing, all of which took way longer to mostly get inferior results.

Oh it absolutely does things better than Word, that I'm happy to admit. I do a newsletter every few months and I end up using Pages (since all I need is a PDF at the end so compatibility isn't an issue) because it is much better suited to the task.

It also does great reports, and is extremely popular in universities and for eBooks.

I don't know where you are but here, Pages has never been popular in universities. They are a Word dominated world.

 

[leadfoot]

If MACOSX upgrades work on the same line on most unix flavour upgrades such as Linux BSD Solaris. Then older models like my own MACPRO Early 2008 with enough ram under the Hood (America) Bonnet should cope with the regular upgrades. I am using at the moment Maverick 10.9.5 with a few niggles not on speed but with the odd older software playing up.

 

[rubaiyat]

I don't know where you are but here, Pages has never been popular in universities. They are a Word dominated world.

Oh absolutely, I agree. Pages export to Word .doc/x has never been a sure thing, with Pages 5 it went beyond bothering with. But if the submissions are in print or pdf (lecturers being remarkably varied in their requirements) it doesn't matter what software creates it, only the results.

I do support for Pages and get a lot of Masters, Thesises and other submissions cross my way.

Frankly I recommend against using Pages just based on risk. If things go pear shaped they can be become totally unsalvageable. And that is beyond the constant churn that Apple creates with file formats, and the vagaries of iCloud.

Still a truly disproportionate number of students use Macs, (or maybe it is just the more studious?) you only have to see the libraries or lecture halls to see all the Apple logos turning the room into an illuminated orchard. They have to be using something and it is not all on-line. I'll ask my uni son what he is using currently. My other son is already working and whilst he uses Macs and iPad (supplied by work), his boss's requirements means he has to use Excel. The reports are a little more open as to what he uses.

Personally if it requires a longer document, using elegant but not over the top design and not going to press, I use Pages '09.

For presswork, I use Indesign, Illustrator or Affinity Designer.

For my books I use as basic and minimal a Text editor as I can find, TextEdit, iText Express, Bean, iA Writer or LibreOffice. I don't care. The content and end result is important, everything else is a means to an end. I've had a go at Scribus but don't think I need all the frills. I am perfectly capable of working out plot-lines, characterisation and references myself.

In fact I have noticed that with too much reliance on technology writing quality has actually deteriorated. I'm sure I am not the last to notice the glaring grammatical, spelling and factual errors which abound these days. There is a (naïve) notion that software knows best and will always clean up after.

 

[rubaiyat]

When reading reviews, it's important to note the pros and cons that are mentioned, then evaluate them according to your needs. Most times, there will always be some negative comment, which may or may not apply to the person reading it, so it's important to decide how much that statement applies or not. If there are many more positive ones, I weigh them against the fewer negative ones, also.

This is an important point to make in light of the heat that has entered this debate.

One aspect of the merits of anything is people's reactions but that never trumps facts. Some things are not up for a vote, unless you want to survey exactly how little people actually pay attention or have a clue as to what is going on.

As Galileo reputedly said "eppur si muove".

It moves, because it moves, not because everyone agrees it moves, or because the Inquisition and the Pope relent and say it moves.

If you can only get people to actually look, they might just start thinking for themselves, and then where would that lead?

 

[rainbowcat]

Maybe

Just installed Yosemite last night, b/c I teach adult ed tech classes, and it's much easier when we are all on the same OSX. No problems, everything runs fine - so far. Really like the new mark-up features in Preview. BUT - I'm blinded by those neon-blue file folders (even in Dark Mode), the print on Thunderbird is so miniscule it's unreadable (and not fixable by any options I can find) and most of Yosemite is really hard on the eyes after working for a short time. Suppose I'll get used to it, but it feels too much like Windows to me. Keeping my iMac on Mavericks. As Nick said, if you don't need the extra features, or like the way your computer looks now, Yosemite is probably not worth it. I just might go back to Mavericks...

 

[vansmith]

It moves, because it moves, not because everyone agrees it moves, or because the Inquisition and the Pope relent and say it moves.

That's not quite true but that discussion is perhaps better suited to a cultural studies or sociology forum.

 

[rubaiyat]

Papal Infallibility 101: If the Pope says so, it's so.

There is no Papal Infallibility 102 !

;D

 

[dtravis7]

Papal Infallibility 101: If the Pope says so, it's so.

There is no Papal Infallibility 102 !

;D

Whatever!

 

[wrf1984]

I am fortunate in that I'm running a Mac Pro with four hard drive slots. When I upgraded to Yosemite, I used a new SSD drive (a 256 GB drive). Mavericks was on a separate SSD, which was almost full (128GBs). I downloaded a fresh Yosemite to the new drive and began the process of transferring the stuff I use to it. Mavericks wasn't working quite right, but I wondered if part of the problem was because my drive was so nearly full.

Yosemite NEVER worked correctly, or was satisfactory, at least to me. I had some specific problems and here is the worst: opening windows in applications never "stuck." That is, once I "placed" them on one of my two monitors, they wouldn't stay. That sounds whiny, but it really is a problem: EVERY TIME I opened the window I would have to move it to where I wanted it. It got old very quickly.

So, I used Carbon Copy Cloner to clone my Mavericks drive to a new 512 GB SSD and switched back to Mavericks, which is a mature system. I am going to stay here for a while. Yosemite still sits on its own drive and I will perform updates as they become available. Maybe, at some point, I'll switch back to the newer system, but it will be a while.

 

[Kevinfj]

I started with the Beta. I wish I had stayed with Mavericks other than the ipad MBP connectivity that I now have, which kinda makes up for the glitches ! Safari is no longer useable.

 

[wrf1984]

You know what, I also started with the Beta, and on a fresh drive. When the final version came out, though, I RE-downloaded it, reformatted the disk, and started from scratch. I wanted to give Yosemite it's "best chance" by being on a drive uncluttered by other stuff or old systems, etc. So I think I gave it its best possible test. And in my opinion it failed.

 

[Afrormosia]

To try to get back to the original point of the discussion as to whether upgrading to Yosemite is worth it, my own experience would suggest you would be best off biding your time. My Yosemite upgrade on both a mid-2009 MacBook Pro and a Late 2009 iMac have essentially been stable without crashes BUT there have undoubtedly been some issues.

Safari has experienced some real slowdowns from time to time; but Firefox and Chrome have not. There are numerous discussions on Apple's own website about this but you might take a look at https://discussions.apple.com/thread/6617931 as a reasonably good example and some of the suggestions there have improved the performance of Safari but it is still not as good as it was under Mavericks.

In particular, access to Google Maps through Safari now rarely works on either of my computers. It is OK on Firefox and Chrome.

Another disaster area has been the printer driving for a networked Samsung CLP-775ND (fast colour laser). An updated driver now works but there is a significant delay between hitting the print button and the print being made; under Mavericks it was immediate and now is often about 30 seconds. That said, an HP printer continues to work just fine.

In short, I think there remains to be some fine tuning needed to get Yosemite working properly. Once that has been done by Apple, I am fairly sure Yosemite will be a very good and stable program.

 

[NateS]

I am a loyal Mac user since the first one in 1984 and every model since, and I am an Apple shareholder, but I can tell you that I DESPISE Yosemite! Not only does it look childish and cartoonish and unprofessional, but the main problem is vision-related. They changed the system font and I get eyestrain and headaches using it every day!. Go to the Apple Support Communities:

https://discussions.apple.com/welcome

and type in the keywords:

"vision" and "Yosemite"
-OR-
"fonts" and "Yosemite"

and you will see what I mean! The complaints are legion! It is horrible.