Using had now that we can’t encrypt hfs anymore

[curlyimac]

I have several had that I use as backups to keep offsite. I was shocked to find out that OSMomterey will no longer allow you to encrypt hfs+. So i guess this means we have to suck it up and buy all ssd?
I have two 8gb drives. Replacing them will be expensive. I’d like to continue using my drives. Any workarounds other than buying an old Mac running Sierra?

 

[Lifeisabeach]

I have several had that I use as backups to keep offsite. I was shocked to find out that OSMomterey will no longer allow you to encrypt hfs+. So i guess this means we have to suck it up and buy all ssd?
I have two 8gb drives. Replacing them will be expensive. I’d like to continue using my drives. Any workarounds other than buying an old Mac running Sierra?

Yes, there is a workaround. Use APFS.

 

[pm-r]

I was shocked to find out that OSMomterey will no longer allow you to encrypt hfs+.

Unless I misread or misunderstood what Apple is saying, they seem to have a different opinion from your experience according to their article:

File system formats available in Disk Utility on Mac

File system formats available in Disk Utility on Mac

In Disk Utility on your Mac, format disks or volumes using Apple File System (APFS), Mac OS Extended, MS-DOS (FAT), and ExFAT.

support.apple.com

- Patrick
=======

 

[Lifeisabeach]

Unless I misread or misunderstood what Apple is saying, they seem to have a different opinion from your experience according to their article:

File system formats available in Disk Utility on Mac

File system formats available in Disk Utility on Mac

In Disk Utility on your Mac, format disks or volumes using Apple File System (APFS), Mac OS Extended, MS-DOS (FAT), and ExFAT.

support.apple.com

I was a bit confused myself, but apparently you can't format with encryption using HFS+ anymore. In Ventura's System Settings under Privacy & Security, you can turn on FileVault, but apparently only for APFS volumes. When I check the option on my iMac, it only mentions my internal SSD, which is formatted in APFS. My external HDD, which is in HFS+, is not mentioned. Some googling around seems to confirm this... you cannot enable FileVault on HFS+ partitions as of Monterey.

 

[krs]

I have several had that I use as backups to keep offsite. I was shocked to find out that OSMomterey will no longer allow you to encrypt hfs+. So i guess this means we have to suck it up and buy all ssd?

You don't need to use an SSD to format the drives qs APFS. a spinner drive can be formatted that way as well.

I have two 8gb drives. Replacing them will be expensive. I’d like to continue using my drives. Any workarounds other than buying an old Mac running Sierra?

Do you actually mean 8 GB drives? That is pretty small.
Or did you mean 8 TB drives?

My question would be if you format the drives as APFS and encrypt them, can you then read those drives with a Mac running an older macOS - like El Capitan for example?

 

[MacInWin]

My question would be if you format the drives as APFS and encrypt them, can you then read those drives with a Mac running an older macOS - like El Capitan for example?

I think APFS came in with High Sierra, so anything from HS on should read an APFS drive.

 

[MacInWin]

According to Apple, Monterey will allow encrypted HFS+ drives:

Encrypt and protect a storage device with a password in Disk Utility on Mac

In Disk Utility on your Mac, protect sensitive information on a storage device by requiring users to enter a password to access its files.

support.apple.com

and

File system formats available in Disk Utility on Mac

In Disk Utility on your Mac, format disks or volumes using Apple File System (APFS), Mac OS Extended, MS-DOS (FAT), and ExFAT.

support.apple.com

and

Protect your Mac information with encryption

To increase security, you can encrypt information on removable media such as CDs, DVDs, and memory cards and require a password to decode it.

support.apple.com

If I read it correctly, it should work.

 

[pm-r]

can you then read those drives (APFS format) with a Mac running an older macOS - like El Capitan...

My understanding is, NO you cannot, but I think High Sierra is the cutoff point:

The biggest downside to using APFS is that Macs with older macOS versions (macOS 10.12.6 Sierra and older) can't read, write, or access drives that use it. Thus, if you're using an older Mac, you'll need to either keep using Mac OS Extended or use an alternative such as ExFAT instead.

APFS vs. Mac OS Extended: Which Should You Pick?

Here’s a simple explanation of the two main options you get when formatting a drive with your Mac.

www.makeuseof.com

But then I came across this, that just might provide some sort of a workaround:

Got old MacBook? Learn how to work with new APFS.

Apple File System (APFS) is a file system for macOS, iOS and other Apple devices.
If you work on a Mac computer with macOS 10.10 to 10.12 and want to read APFS-formatted HDD, SSD or flash drives, you need APFS Retrofit Kit for macOS by Paragon Software.

APFS Retrofit Kit for macOS | Paragon Software Group

Read APFS-formatted HDD, SSD or flash drive on different macOS – Sierra, El Capitan, Yosemite

www.paragon-software.com

It's all a bit of a confusing mess that Apple created in my opinion, it might even get as bad as their handling of USB and the various variations and ports.




- Patrick
=======

 

[Lifeisabeach]

According to Apple, Monterey will allow encrypted HFS+ drives:

Encrypt and protect a storage device with a password in Disk Utility on Mac

In Disk Utility on your Mac, protect sensitive information on a storage device by requiring users to enter a password to access its files.

support.apple.com

and

File system formats available in Disk Utility on Mac

In Disk Utility on your Mac, format disks or volumes using Apple File System (APFS), Mac OS Extended, MS-DOS (FAT), and ExFAT.

support.apple.com

and

Protect your Mac information with encryption

To increase security, you can encrypt information on removable media such as CDs, DVDs, and memory cards and require a password to decode it.

support.apple.com

If I read it correctly, it should work.

Not a single one of those articles outright says that FileVault can be used with HFS+. We know it can be prior to Monterey, but everything I've read says Monterey can READ FileVault-encrypted HFS+ volumes, but it cannot create one. It can format HFS+, but cannot add encryption. Here's one such discussion on Apple's forums.

Mac OS Extended (Journaled, Encrypted) mi… - Apple Community

discussions.apple.com

EDIT: one more... https://www.reddit.com/r/MacOS/comments/rk1t0v

 

[MacInWin]

I have to admit I have not formatted a drive for HFS+ in a long time. I just tested it and the encrypted option is not there in Ventura. The only encryption option is for APFS, which is encrypted by default. The encryption there adds an additional key that is unlocked by the user-supplied password, but the volume itself is encrypted with a Volume Encryption Key controlled by the system.

I guess Apple is signaling fairly strongly that it's time to move on from HFS+.

 

[ferrarr]

I believe most users that need access to HFS+ Encrypted drive would have an older macOS version to use as needed. Dual (Multiple) boot systems are not that rare when needed to get the job done.

 

[MacInWin]

I believe most users that need access to HFS+ Encrypted drive would have an older macOS version to use as needed. Dual (Multiple) boot systems are not that rare when needed to get the job done.

Monterey and beyond can read HFS+ drives. They cannot create a new HFS+ drive. So, if all you need is to read/write to an existing HFS+ drive with encryption, no need for an older version of the OS.

 

[pm-r]

Monterey and beyond can read HFS+ drives. They cannot create a new HFS+ drive.

Several sites seem to indicate that one can do so, even if the particular format option isn't exactly shown as being used, it gives the impression that it is possible:

3. Format External Hard Drive in Mac (Monterey) in Disk Utility

How to Format External Hard Drive in Mac (Monterey) 2024 Guide

This page shares the idea of selecting the best format for an external hard drive on Mac and presents you with a step-by-step guide to formatting an external hard drive in Mac. Follow this tutorial to make your external hard drive, USB, etc., storage devices fully compatible with Mac now.

toolbox.easeus.com

But I don't know why I am worrying or concerned about it as I don't even have a Mac that could even come close to using it.




- Patrick
=======

 

[MacInWin]

I did some poking around. First, I formatted a USB drive at the hardware level, picked GUID for partition format, and then HFS+ for format. Format went fine, drive mounted and worked. Then, I right-clicked on the drive and did a Get Info to see the drive formatted HFS+. Again right licked and the menu option offered "Encrypt" so I clicked that and was prompted for a password. Created the PW, and it encrypted the drive in a few moments. But when I right clicked and did a "Get Info" the drive was now formatted APFS (encrypted)!

Thinking that maybe it reformatted the drive on the fly because it was empty, I repeated the process, but after confirming that it was HFS+, I copied a file to it. Then I encrypted it. Again, the Get Info showed it had be converted, on the fly, to APFS (Encrypted). The file I had copied to it was still there and was unchanged. I could open it just as I had before.

So, encrypting external drives will flip them to APFS (Encrypted) with no notification of the change. Apple REALLY is saying stop using HFS+!

I imagine that some folks are wondering why their external rotating drives have slowed down after encryption. It's not the encryption, I suspect, but the reformatting to a format optimized for SSDs. Admittedly, I didn't test with a rotating drive because I don't have a sacrificial drive to offer up, but I suspect the results will be the same--an unannounced conversion to APFS to encrypt it.

 

[pm-r]

So, encrypting external drives will flip them to APFS (Encrypted) with no notification of the change. Apple REALLY is saying stop using HFS+!

Thanks for your poking around Jake.

From what you discovered that certainly seems to be the case and the mixing of formats seems to be an accident just waiting to happen, especially when any recent Apple MacOS encryption is involved.

Maybe it would be better in such cases where it cannot easily or cheaply be avoided, would be to forget the encryption per se and just use another permission or some sort of password protection to access the data and keep it protected.




-- Patrriick

=========

 

[curlyimac]

You don't need to use an SSD to format the drives qs APFS. a spinner drive can be formatted that way as well.

Do you actually mean 8 GB drives? That is pretty small.
Or did you mean 8 TB drives?

My question would be if you format the drives as APFS and encrypt them, can you then read those drives with a Mac running an older macOS - like El Capitan for example?

Yes I meant 8 TB.
I don't want to format those APFS because i've heard that it isn't optimal, with fragmentation woes on spinners.

 

[curlyimac]

Thanks for your poking around Jake.

From what you discovered that certainly seems to be the case and the mixing of formats seems to be an accident just waiting to happen, especially when any recent Apple MacOS encryption is involved.

Maybe it would be better in such cases where it cannot easily or cheaply be avoided, would be to forget the encryption per se and just use another permission or some sort of password protection to access the data and keep it protected.




-- Patrriick

=========

Like a third party encrypt software? I suppose that would work. I just don't like to keep my off site drives unprotected.

 

[curlyimac]

I believe most users that need access to HFS+ Encrypted drive would have an older macOS version to use as needed. Dual (Multiple) boot systems are not that rare when needed to get the job done.

That's what I am looking at. I could pick up an old MacBook with sierra just as a fail safe.

 

[MacInWin]

Yes I meant 8 TB.
I don't want to format those APFS because i've heard that it isn't optimal, with fragmentation woes on spinners.

It isn't, but if you want to encrypt the drives you have to change. It's up to you whether encryption or fragmentation is the bigger issue. But, if they are backups, offsite, as you said in the first post, maybe fragmentation isn't so big an issue? They are BACKUPS, after all.

 

[Lifeisabeach]

I agree with Jake. The point of defragging is to improve read/write performance. In a backup, that's the least of your concerns, or should be. And quite frankly, if you make a fresh backup that involves wiping the drive and re-copying everything, then your files are effectively, albeit crudely, defragged on the backup.