Snow Leopard VS. Lion

[Dysfunction]

Perhaps, well I'm really hoping here, things will improve. I don't mind all -that- much the iOS integration, but I do NOT want to run iOS.

Then you'll want to skip 10.8.. and probably every subsequent OS update. It's looking like it'll get more and more iOS-like. As long as I can remove the things I don't like (or just not use them, see launchpad) I'm ok with that. That said, I predict that most users will end up with iPad-like devices anyway, and be 100% fine with that.

 

[Groovetube]

So, my question is, what about those who work on their machines, and the ipad/ipad wanna be laptops arrive?

Is this the apocalypse for us all feared but never believed?

Surely apple couldn't be this stupid as to pretty much lock out pros. Or just workstation/production in general. Not everyone just uses social media/office document/make pretty thingys in gizmo-wizard.

 

[Dysfunction]

Eh, there's a big belief right now that everything will be 'in the cloud'. Distributed computing is really nothing new, neither is the cyclical push to lighter, thinner client-based computers. It seems to move in cycles really. Do I believe that no one will make machines for producers (rather than consumers)? Nope, I think they'll be around for a very long time to come. What I do think will happen, is that most people simply won't have them (and thus, they'll be more expensive.. again).

 

[cwa107]

So, my question is, what about those who work on their machines, and the ipad/ipad wanna be laptops arrive?

Is this the apocalypse for us all feared but never believed?

Surely apple couldn't be this stupid as to pretty much lock out pros. Or just workstation/production in general. Not everyone just uses social media/office document/make pretty thingys in gizmo-wizard.

I don't think they have any specific intent to "lock out" the professional market per se, but I don't believe it's quite as strong of an area of focus for them.

You will certainly see Mac OS X continue to add features that parallel iOS, but I do believe they will continue to be two separate and distinct operating systems, used for different purposes. Whether you choose to use those features is entirely up to you.

Also, contrary to some of the reports I've seen about Apple moving to ARM for the CPU in notebook models, I don't believe we'll see that move any time in the near future. At least not in the current model lines - although I wouldn't put it past them to build some kind of a notebook/tablet hybrid that uses ARM in a completely new product line.

What I find interesting is the reaction that a lot of the "pros" have to all of these changes.... as if the trend were something new. This is Apple, not Microsoft. They have proven time and time again that they have no hesitation to kill off what they deem to be "legacy" technologies in favor of whatever they see as the future. You either come along for the ride, or get left in the dust. If you want a platform that maintains backwards compatibility at all costs, then you should probably looking at Windows.

 

[Groovetube]

Well, I don't want to be looking at windows. I believe windows will simply follow a similar roadmap as apple, so all windows will be is simply a rough facsimile of apple. I spent all day in the studio recording someone's record, and they had a windows based system for pro tools, and they had to reboot the **** thing like 20 times over the 14 hours. Ugh.

I'm trying to see this all with a bit positivity. I know computing will change, and with it, how we do things, even in terms of production, and workflow. I did try lion, and although I wrote it off as buggy, not ready for use, it isn't a final judgement on apple's roadmap.

I intend to follow apple as I have since 2003, and just hope it all works out. There's always, er, linux. If devs are backed into a corner, it isn't like windows is much of an option, perhaps this is where the 'third' option may materialize.

 

[cwa107]

Personally, I don't think Lion is unstable or buggy at all - even on its initial release. Like with all recent OS X updates, it does require a clean install, but I never found it to be unstable provided that it was installed as such. Are its features quirky? Sure. Is it the best design that Apple has done in recent memory? In my opinion, no - it still needs refinement. But fundamentally, it's Snow Leopard gussied up with some iOS-inspired features.

 

[Groovetube]

I've heard a handful of people sing it's praises with regards to it's stability. However, where I work which is pretty much considered "agency alley" where there are a ridiculous number of production houses (my commercial building probably has no less than 20 web dev/design/video production studios, and my building is a small 6 storey...) I have yet to find more than 3 people who find lion ok for use in this environment.

But that isn't to say no one is ok with it. It's pretty much universally accepted in my circles that snow leopard is the best bet for the time being. I found it sluggish compared to snow leopard, Beachballs far too often, just in general, not as clean and problem free as snow leopard.

 

[vansmith]

So, my question is, what about those who work on their machines, and the ipad/ipad wanna be laptops arrive?

Linux.

It's quite obvious that both MS and Apple are moving towards pared down operating systems that cater to the majority of users who have rather simplistic needs. I give you my parents as an example: if they can read email and type a document, they're happy. Or, I submit my friends as another: if they can check Facebook (and bother me on it), type up their assignments and watch the odd video, they're happy. Thus, abstracting individuals from the minutiae of operating systems is the end goal here because it caters to 90% of the end users that serve as clientele. That said, neither operating system is going to be locked down like iOS for one very simple reason: you can't run all computers with such restrictions. Computers are used in a myriad of ways which limits the types of restrictions you can develop.

I do find it somewhat ironic however that MS, long presented as the antithesis of Apple's walled garden, is "growing its own garden" with Metro applications. But, I digress.

 

[cwa107]

I do find it somewhat ironic however that MS, long presented as the antithesis of Apple's walled garden, is "growing its own garden" with Metro applications. But, I digress.

Aren't metro apps essentially coded in HTML5? That makes them pretty "open", does it not?

 

[dtravis7]

Microsoft announced they are taking OUT the start menu in Windows 8 and it will be the Phone/Tablet interface ONLY. I have used the DP of 8 before they decided to take out the Start Menu and it's like using an UGLY version (to me) iPad OS on a desktop. Without the Start menu, I can not stand that interface on a DESKTOP computer. Lion and even what I have seen of Mountain Lion is still every bit OSX with some added IOS interface you can use or not use.

So going back to Windows when 8 takes over will not happen for me. 7 is nice but the last Windows that I will probably ever use here. That is really too bad as I really like Windows 7.

 

[cwa107]

Microsoft announced they are taking OUT the start menu in Windows 8 and it will be the Phone/Tablet interface ONLY. I have used the DP of 8 before they decided to take out the Start Menu and it's like using an UGLY version (to me) iPad OS on a desktop. Without the Start menu, I can not stand that interface on a DESKTOP computer. Lion and even what I have seen of Mountain Lion is still every bit OSX with some added IOS interface you can use or not use.

So going back to Windows when 8 takes over will not happen for me. 7 is nice but the last Windows that I will probably ever use here. That is really too bad as I really like Windows 7.

Now that I've had some time to reflect on Windows 8, I have to say it's not too bad. A lot of people will have this reaction though - I know I did.

But if you put it into perspective, the Metro screen gives you a lot of information in live tiles, but it also acts as a program launcher. The desktop is still there.

Think about how often you bring up the Start menu itself. Personally, I might use it once or twice a day. Most of my launches are done from Quick Launch shortcuts (or pinned icons in Win7) and from Windows-key+R *or* the "Search" field in Win7.

I don't think bringing up Metro as a replacement for the Start Menu is really that big of a headache - and hey - if you happen to catch tomorrow's forecast while you're browsing for some obscure program, at least it's not a waste of time browsing through an archaic (by today's standards) menu.

Dennis, I think people like you and I (and maybe even some from Vansmith's generation) that cut their teeth on command lines and early GUI metaphors are going to have a hard time adjusting to "the new order".

I don't know about you, but I often find it funny to see new members who start out with "I've been using Windows all my life" when they post about their switch to Mac. Windows hasn't been around "all of my life", in fact, it's just been popular for a fraction of it. So, it's funny the perspective some people bring to the Mac... Windows is all they had ever known of computers up until the switch.

Now, fast forward 10 years from now... those kids that you see playing with Mom and Dad's iPhones and iPads in a restaurant... those are the kids that will be saying "I've used an iPad all of my life and decided it was time to upgrade to a Mac". They will have a very different idea of how a computer should look and operate. The desktop metaphors and command lines will seem just as antiquated to them as teletypes and punchcards seem to me.

So, like I said earlier, as difficult as it might be, we need to roll with the changes... or get rolled over by them!

 

[dtravis7]

I find Windows 8 (been using it for a while now) ugly. Those icons you click on being all different sizes, look awful. It looks just like Windows 8 Phone interface which I find ugly for the same reason but at least you click on it with your fingers. For an Interface on a Desktop computer, I do not want a Device interface to use with a mouse and a Touch Screen 27" monitor will cause Arm strain unless it's laying flat on a desk.

I HATE the look of the interface on Windows 8. It looks so unattractive. I am not going by pictures. I have had it installed since the DP was available.

With OSX you have an option to use the launcher or not. As long as OSX gives me both, I will use it. My issue though with Mountain Lion is having to buy all new hardware to use it which I and MANY others can not afford to do.

 

[cwa107]

I find Windows 8 (been using it for a while now) ugly. Those icons you click on being all different sizes, look awful. It looks just like Windows 8 Phone interface which I find ugly for the same reason but at least you click on it with your fingers. For an Interface on a Desktop computer, I do not want a Device interface to use with a mouse and a Touch Screen 27" monitor will cause Arm strain unless it's laying flat on a desk.

With OSX you have an option to use the launcher or not. As long as OSX gives me both, I will use it. My issue though with Mountain Lion is having to buy all new hardware to use it which I and MANY others can not afford to do.

I get what you're saying and I don't mean to tease you at all. I just think it's hard to get us old school "geeks" to be open minded about changes to UIs we've come to know and love.

I wonder whether MS will allow for some way to disable the Metro UI for more conservative shops (like businesses) or for devices where it doesn't make sense.

 

[vansmith]

Aren't metro apps essentially coded in HTML5? That makes them pretty "open", does it not?

You can develop them with web technologies (HTML, CSS, JS, etc.) or .NET. The problem however is not in the development but in the distribution - Metro apps can only be installed through the Windows Store (see here). This effectively locks people in if they want to use Metro applications.

Dennis, I think people like you and I (and maybe even some from Vansmith's generation) that cut their teeth on command lines and early GUI metaphors are going to have a hard time adjusting to "the new order".

Ironically, despite my stubbornness, I'm quite open to new UI paradigms. Having used Linux for so long with its vast range of choice, I've come to accept that UIs can take very different (and quite unique) shapes.

Although I have reservations about the interface, I'm keeping an open mind. My history with UIs is much too complex for me to do otherwise. However, admittedly, I'm having a hard time adjusting to the new approach. I do like to try new methods of interacting with my computer but I have become used to the "Windows paradigm" (start menu, taskbar, etc.) which is why Metro seems very foreign to me. From where I sit, it seems like Microsoft's design team has made some poor choices but I recognize that part of that feeling is my fault. I also tend to be overly critical of new products when they're presented.

So, to be fair to Microsoft, I am re-downloading the preview to give it another shot.

 

[dtravis7]

CWA, I will tell you something I usually do not admit on a Mac forum for fear of being hated!

I LIKE Launchpad. I don't use it all the time but do like it. It looks nice, Everything laid out well and uniform. It looks very nice as does the IOS interface. I do prefer the Dock most of the time, but still like Launchpad. There I said it. BUT....

Well then why don't you like Windows 8 Metro? It looks ugly with all the different size icons. I did not like it when it first came out on Windows Phone 7 either, but it's even worse on a desktop. I am a VERY open minded person but just do not like the way Metro looks, yet I like Launchpads interface.

I loved OSX the first minute I got to try it. Instantly I loved it and wanted it as my main OS. Same with Amiga OS when it first came out. Same with OS2 later.

Another slant on this is I do not like Android's OS for a smartphone or tablet all that well but would take that interface any day of the week to Windows Phone OS. It's not any Microsoft hatred either. I just do not like that interface and look! Of all portable devices I have seen, I still am impressed with IOS every time I see or use it.

Another quick note, I am sort of like Vansmith in that I try all kinds of different Applications and OS's all the time. I am constantly checking out what is new.

 

[Groovetube]

I downloaded the win8 preview, can I set this up in vmware? I tried to run the install and I got an error.

 

[cwa107]

I downloaded the win8 preview, can I set this up in vmware? I tried to run the install and I got an error.

I have it running under VMWare. Just use the Windows 7 preset when you're building your VM.

If it doesn't have the Win7 preset, you're probably using a deprecated version of VMWare.

 

[Groovetube]

just tried that thx, but still get this:

*** VMware Fusion internal monitor error ***

vcpu-0:NOT_IMPLEMENTED vmcore/vmm/intr/apic.c:1903

And a whole pile of unintelligible crap.

VMware 3.1.3

 

[cwa107]

just tried that thx, but still get this:

*** VMware Fusion internal monitor error ***

And a whole pile of unintelligible crap.

VMware 3.1.3

I'm using 4.1.1. Did you download the 64-bit version? And if so, are you using the 64-bit Win7 preset?

 

[Groovetube]

yes and yes.

I have win7 64 bit running fine. The win8 64bit won't install.