Self Defense?

[fleurya]

Well, you would have to prove a direction causation between gun ownership and rate of rape in the first place. At best, the facts only show some kind of correlation, which isn't the same. I didn't examine them closely to see how much. I did notice that Japan is very low on the list and also has very few gun deaths. Are guns banned in Japan?

I think much of the crime issues, guns or not, float back to more broad social conditions which are different between countries. I think Baggs hit on that point a little bit before.

 

[Amen-Moses]

Well, you would have to prove a direction causation between gun ownership and rate of rape in the first place. At best, the facts only show some kind of correlation, which isn't the same. I didn't examine them closely to see how much. I did notice that Japan is very low on the list and also has very few gun deaths. Are guns banned in Japan?

I think that table nicely demonstrates a complete lack of causation as the countries below the US don't have a gun-toting populace either.

Amen-Moses

 

[RiDE]

No but in how many US States is forced sexual intercourse not deemed rape if between man and wife?

Anyhow those figures could just refelect the attractiveness of the female population and/or the prevelance of scantily clad young women ****** out of their minds wandering the streets, that is definitely on the increase over here!

Amen-Moses

She isn't asking to be raped no, but she would be far more appealing to a rapist. Given the choice between a potential victim being actractive. slim, wearing a miniskirt and G-string and being drunk and a sober larger build woman in a 3 peice suit I'd hazard a bet on the former being chosen.

There are certain parts of my city in which I move my wallet from my side pocket to an inside pocket with a button, if I didn't do that I'm not asking to be mugged but I'm sure as heck more likely to be!

Amen-Moses

I think that table nicely demonstrates a complete lack of causation as the countries below the US don't have a gun-toting populace either.

Amen-Moses

Or is it, as you stated previously, that some countries have "larger" women whom no one wants to rape, while other countries have attractive women who drink, and wear revealing clothing??? Which is it???

 

[Amen-Moses]

Or is it, as you stated previously, that some countries have "larger" women whom no one wants to rape, while other countries have attractive women who drink, and wear revealing clothing??? Which is it???

Or maybe it's the strength or taste of the alcohol or even the colour of the buses ...

The point is the lack of any correlation, a point you seem to have finally got!

:radioacti

Amen-Moses

 

[fleurya]

Well, I have to thank you all for this thread. Tonight in my economics class we were handed an assignment to find a business or policy issue, determine some factors that may affect it, and do a regression analysis to determine if, and to what degree, those factors have an affect.

In light of our spirited debate over gun control, I've decided to use it as my subject. I still have to choose a set of variables, something I can actually find data on, and propose it to the professor. If anyone has any good suggestions, I'll take them. If I get to do it, I'll post my findings on the thread.

 

[ToddG]

How about per capita legal ownership of firearms as a (potential) measure of per capita murder (or even firearms-related murder), rape, and burglary rates?

In other words, does "more guns" equal greater or lesser rates of violent crimes?

 

[Amen-Moses]

How about per capita legal ownership of firearms as a (potential) measure of per capita murder (or even firearms-related murder), rape, and burglary rates?

In other words, does "more guns" equal greater or lesser rates of violent crimes?

The problem is that the difinition of "violent crime" varies so much from country to country that any comparison would be pointless.

The link I posted earlier has a section about victim surveys which is eye-opening to say the least, for example a large percentage (40% IIRC) of victims of violent crime (i.e people who turn up in the statistics) when questioned said they did not even consider what happened to them to be a crime. This tells an awful lot about what these statistics are counting, i.e things like drunken brawls and accidental injuries.

My eyes were opened when my son was charged with common assualt (a "violent crime") when he tripped and fell against a woman in the street. He was carrying two bags of shopping at the time and stepped aside to let her and her husband pass when he tripped on a tree root. Her husband reported the incident to the police and my son was charged.

The case was thrown out of court (after almost a year of waiting for it to come to trial) because neither the woman or her by then ex-husband turned up to give evidence, my son was "let off" with a formal warning.

This really is a far different society to the US!

Amen-Moses

 

[fleurya]

Bad news, my prof didn't accept my idea for an analysis. He said there are too many variables to consider and a simplified regression with a handful of variables wouldn't produce accurate results. Oh well, I gave it a shot.

I suppose this is the end of this debate, at least on this forum.

 

[ToddG]

It's neat that you tried, fleurya, and the prof is probably right in all fairness. There are so many factors, and everyone is constantly trying to boil it down to just one or two things to "prove" some political point that no one really knows the answer to.

Hope you and the prof came up with something equally interesting to you for your project.

 

[lionel]

Gun's don't kill people.

People kill people.

 

[baggss]

Gun's don't kill people.

People kill people.

What about when people kill guns.....?

 

[scooter]

What about when people kill guns.....?

the NRA weeps..........

 

[johntalin]

One of my husband's friends who works for the Navy sent us this as a tip:

Put your car keys beside your bed at night. If you hear a noise outside and someone is trying to get in your house, just press the panic button for your car alarm. The alarm will be set off and the horn will continue to sound until either you turn it off or the car battery dies. Next time you come home for the night and you start to put your keys away, think of this: It's a security alarm system that you probably already have and requires no installation. Test it.
It will go off by remote from most everywhere inside your house and will keep honking until your battery runs down or until you reset it with the button on the key fob chain. It works if you park in your driveway or garage. If your car alarm goes off when someone is trying to break in your house, odds are the burglar or a rapist won't stick around... after a few seconds all the neighbors will be looking out their windows to see who is out there and sure enough the criminal won't want that. And, remember to carry your keys while walking to your car in a parking lot. The alarm can work the same way there...
This info. may save a life or prevent a sexual abuse crime.
Would also be useful for any emergency, such as a heart attack, where you can't reach a phone.
The moral of the story: Make noise as loud as you can.

 

[johntalin]

Tips to protect yourself (mostly for my lady friends on this forum):

Tip from Tae Kwon Do: The elbow is the strongest point on your body. If you are close enough to use it, do!

If a robber asks for your wallet and/or purse, DO NOT HAND IT TO HIM. Toss it away from you... chances are that he is more interested in your wallet and/or purse than you, and he will go for the wallet/purse. RUN LIKE MAD IN THE OTHER DIRECTION!

If you are ever thrown into the trunk of a car, kick out the back tail lights and stick your arm out the hole and start waving like crazy. The driver won't see you, but everybody else will. This has saved lives.

Women have a tendency to get into their cars after shopping, eating, working, etc., and just sit (doing their checkbook, or making a list, etc.) DON'T DO THIS! The predator will be watching you, and this is the perfect opportunity for him to get in on the passenger side, put a gun to your head, and tell you where to go. AS SOON AS YOU GET INTO YOUR CAR, LOCK THE DOORS AND LEAVE.

If someone is in the car with a gun to your head DO NOT DRIVE OFF, repeat: DO NOT DRIVE OFF! Instead gun the engine and speed into anything, wrecking the car. Your Air Bag will save you. If the person is in the back seat they will get the worst of it. As soon as the car crashes bail out and run. It is better than having them find your body in a remote location.

ALWAYS take the elevator instead of the stairs. (Stairwells are horrible places to be alone and the perfect crime spot. This is especially true at NIGHT!)

If the predator has a gun and you are not under his control, ALWAYS RUN! The predator will only hit you (a running target) 4 in 100 times; And even then, it most likely WILL NOT be a vital organ. RUN, Preferably in a zig zag pattern!

A few notes about getting into your car in a parking lot, or parking garage: A) Be aware: look around you, look into your car, at the passenger side floor, and in the back seat. B) If you are parked next to a big van, enter your car from the passenger door. Most killers attack their victims by pulling them into their vans while the women are attempting to get into their cars. C) Look at the car parked on the driver's side of your vehicle, and the passenger side. If a male is sitting alone in the seat nearest your car, you may want to walk back into the mall, or work, and get a guard/policeman to walk you back out.
IT IS ALWAYS BETTER TO BE SAFE THAN SORRY. (And better paranoid than dead.)

 

[fluffer]

One of my husband's friends who works for the Navy sent us this as a tip:

Put your car keys beside your bed at night. If you hear a noise outside and someone is trying to get in your house, just press the panic button for your car alarm. The alarm will be set off and the horn will continue to sound until either you turn it off or the car battery dies. Next time you come home for the night and you start to put your keys away, think of this: It's a security alarm system that you probably already have and requires no installation. Test it.
It will go off by remote from most everywhere inside your house and will keep honking until your battery runs down or until you reset it with the button on the key fob chain. It works if you park in your driveway or garage. If your car alarm goes off when someone is trying to break in your house, odds are the burglar or a rapist won't stick around... after a few seconds all the neighbors will be looking out their windows to see who is out there and sure enough the criminal won't want that. And, remember to carry your keys while walking to your car in a parking lot. The alarm can work the same way there...
This info. may save a life or prevent a sexual abuse crime.
Would also be useful for any emergency, such as a heart attack, where you can't reach a phone.
The moral of the story: Make noise as loud as you can.

Can I just thankyou for this! I would never have thought of doing it at all!

 

[ToddG]

Lots of really good advice there, johntalin.

Elbow strikes are definitely effective. I once knocked a guy unconscious with two elbow strikes ... he was wearing a football helmet covered in thick padding at the time. The most important thing to remember, however, is that if you are going to hit someone you need to hit him. Not tap him, not pull back at the last second ... use all your strength and force your hand, elbow, knee, whatever through him. Also, don't punch with your fists. The odds are very high that you'll hit something harder than your knuckles and do more harm to yourself than your attacker.

Trunk of car: first, a lot of modern cars have a little lever you can pull that will open the trunk from the inside. Second, I wouldn't get in the trunk to begin with. A lot of johntalin's advice refers to what we call "crime scene two," the place the BG is going to bring you after he's abducted you. Crime scene two is always secluded and safe for the BG. You are in much more danger at crime scene 2. If you're going to fight, if you're going to resist, do it at crime scene 1 (where the abduction is happening).

While I'm not overly fond of their politics and their subtle "all men are evil" approach, Model Mugging is probably the best training program out there for teaching women to defend themselves against aggressors. The program began when a karate black belt was raped and badly beaten, forcing her friends and teachers to rethink their approach to self defense. They now call it "Impact" and you can see a list of current chapters here.

My final comment: though most of these gems of advice are directed at women, men are idiots if they ignore them. Being aware of your surroundings and avoid violent conflict is a much better way to get home at night. You might think there's only one BG trying to mug you, but in fact his accomplice is guaranteed to be right around the corner. One guy with a pocket knife can permanently disable or even kill you without much effort or training.

Stay safe!

 

[DistantHoller]

I think you are all scaring each other! What are the chances (or risks as we say here in Sweden) of any of this happening? For example getting kidnapped in the trunk of a car? I guess you have better chances at the lottery!

 

[johntalin]

I think you are all scaring each other! What are the chances (or risks as we say here in Sweden) of any of this happening? For example getting kidnapped in the trunk of a car? I guess you have better chances at the lottery!

Have you ever visited Los Angeles?
lol

 

[johntalin]

Lots of really good advice there, johntalin.

Elbow strikes are definitely effective. I once knocked a guy unconscious with two elbow strikes ... he was wearing a football helmet covered in thick padding at the time. The most important thing to remember, however, is that if you are going to hit someone you need to hit him. Not tap him, not pull back at the last second ... use all your strength and force your hand, elbow, knee, whatever through him. Also, don't punch with your fists. The odds are very high that you'll hit something harder than your knuckles and do more harm to yourself than your attacker.

Trunk of car: first, a lot of modern cars have a little lever you can pull that will open the trunk from the inside. Second, I wouldn't get in the trunk to begin with. A lot of johntalin's advice refers to what we call "crime scene two," the place the BG is going to bring you after he's abducted you. Crime scene two is always secluded and safe for the BG. You are in much more danger at crime scene 2. If you're going to fight, if you're going to resist, do it at crime scene 1 (where the abduction is happening).

While I'm not overly fond of their politics and their subtle "all men are evil" approach, Model Mugging is probably the best training program out there for teaching women to defend themselves against aggressors. The program began when a karate black belt was raped and badly beaten, forcing her friends and teachers to rethink their approach to self defense. They now call it "Impact" and you can see a list of current chapters here.

My final comment: though most of these gems of advice are directed at women, men are idiots if they ignore them. Being aware of your surroundings and avoid violent conflict is a much better way to get home at night. You might think there's only one BG trying to mug you, but in fact his accomplice is guaranteed to be right around the corner. One guy with a pocket knife can permanently disable or even kill you without much effort or training.

Stay safe!

Great additional advice. And, thanks for the link.
I took a short class in self defense a while back, and it was hard to walk the next day. So, I was very glad that no one had attacked me in next few days, after I finished the class. lol

 

[johntalin]

Can I just thankyou for this! I would never have thought of doing it at all!

Many important things in life could be accomplished in an instant.
Glad to be help.