iCloud: Once You're in, You're Never Getting Out

[AMACL]

Ann, there is a lot to digest in your post.

>>>Jake, thanks for all that. Now it is I who must digest YOUR post .

First, even if you turn on storage in iCloud, Finder will still report that the files and folders are on the Desktop and in the Documents folder, so if Finder is reporting nothing is there it's because nothing is there, or in iCloud. Being empty is a sign that at some point the system was putting files into iCloud but that the service was stopped. That is also sort of verified by this archive you say you found. It may be that the system, when the storage in iCloud was turned off, put what it had in that archive for you. Hard to tell, there is not enough detail in your post to be 100% sure.

>>> Yes, the iCloud (Archive) appeared to have everything.

As for this: I would suspect that what think of as "converted" was actually the time they ware being downloaded from iCloud to your local machine and then opened. What makes you think a conversion process was happening? I bet it was that it took some time to open, which was the download time, not a conversion time.

>>> Just that they showed up with the name "data" and were blank sheets. If I clicked on them, they eventually showed up as "real" documents. I guess I meant conversion in the sense of transfer (like a chrysalis to a butterfly), sorry for the confusion.

The password or account information is incorrect. Maybe he changed it and forgot to tell you?

>>> No, I was able to get into his iCloud account all right (hubby doesn't even know he has one, and would hardly know how to change it .) I tried again just now from my own computer, and I could access his iCloud account. I clicked on iCloud Drive, and there were his documents and desktop all right. I could read the documents. What I don't know how to do is to copy them from there to another location, ie an EHD and/or a specially named folder on his computer, as you suggest below. BTW I have no idea why iCloud.com asked me to re-enter his ID and password the other day. It did not do that just now.

Are the documents you want on his machine showing on the iCloud Drive and in iCloud? If so, the proper way to turn off the storage in the cloud and preserve the documents is to copy them from the iCloud to somewhere NOT on the Desktop or in the Documents folder of his home folder. Most folks choose to store them on an external, but you can put them on the internal drive in something as long as it is NOT Desktop or Documents. It may take some time to download them all, so be patient. Once you have them all, you can turn off the function in System Preferences and the system will create new, empty Desktop folder and new, empty Documents folder. Once done, you can then copy the files and folders from where you stored them in the download phase to these two new empty locations and everything should be as you want.

>>> I have already created the new location(s) on his computer, ready to receive the dump of files from iCloud.
As I mentioned in my original post, I was able to copy the iCloud Drive (Archive) files from the computer to an EHD. I guess I could copy them back onto the computer in the newly created location(s). I just thought I might lose something if I didn't copy straight from iCloud.com.

 

[pm-r]

Once you have them all, you can turn off the function in System Preferences and the system will create new, empty Desktop folder and new, empty Documents folder. Once done, you can then copy the files and folders from where you stored them in the download phase to these two new empty locations...

Just a bit curious and wanting some clarification, but in such a case, does the System create a new and duplicate Desktop and Documents folders but in different locations or what...??? Or are those particular folders just replaced for the particular user???

I must admit that Apple's explanation does not do very much to clarify the matter, at least that I could find, but I wasn't really bothered enough to go looking and searching as I will probably never have the need or opportunity to use the feature as I gather it only exists in Mojave and later.



- Patrick
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[Marrk]

I'm going to jump in here.

"copy them from the iCloud to somewhere NOT on the Desktop or in the Documents folder of his home folder."

This phrase keeps coming up. Could you give an example?

 

[MacInWin]

>>> Yes, the iCloud (Archive) appeared to have everything.

If the archive folder has everything, why are you trying to copy it again? I am confused about what it is you are trying to achieve

I clicked on iCloud Drive, and there were his documents and desktop all right. I could read the documents. What I don't know how to do is to copy them from there to another location, ie an EHD and/or a specially named folder on his computer, as you suggest below.

Is this iCloud Drive the one on his machine, or the one in the iCloud? Again, I'm a bit confused by what you are trying to do. If the archive folder has all of his data, what are you trying to do?

I guess I could copy them back onto the computer in the newly created location(s). I just thought I might lose something if I didn't copy straight from iCloud.com.

If what you have in the EHD is all of his files, just copy them back. That's the process. But, again, I'm confused about why you are trying to get something from iCloud if it's already on the EHD?

@Patrick, you said:

Just a bit curious and wanting some clarification, but in such a case, does the System create a new and duplicate Desktop and Documents folders but in different locations or what...??? Or are those particular folders just replaced for the particular user???

No, the new Desktop and Documents folders are in the exact same location as you see if you don't go to the cloud: ~/Desktop and ~/Documents. When you use iCloud to offload storage, what is in those folder are links to the files in the cloud, so when you open Document.doc, for example, it downloads from the cloud, opens the app (if needed) and when you save, puts the new version back into the cloud. So when you turn iCloud OFF, the system deletes the Desktop and Documents folders, creates new ones in the same place. It's also supposed to offer to retrieve all of your files from iCloud to your system, putting them in an Archive folder. While I'm reluctant to try to get into the heads of developers (ugly places, those heads), I suspect that the thinking is that if you don't want to use the cloud, you must want to start clean, hence new Desktop and Document folders.

@Marrk, I'm not sure what you are asking

I'm going to jump in here.

"copy them from the iCloud to somewhere NOT on the Desktop or in the Documents folder of his home folder."

This phrase keeps coming up. Could you give an example?

Your Document and Desktop folders are in your home directory. The long path name is /Users/<<your account>>/Desktop and /Users/<<your account>>/Documents. The abbreviation for /Users/<<your account>> is the symbol "~", so ~/Desktop and ~/Documents. Those two folder will be erased, as I said, when you stop the use of iCloud for those folders. So, if you see what looks like files and subfolders in those two folders and want to turn off iCloud, you select all in ~/Desktop, for example, and then right click and use Copy to copy them to wherever you want. Could be an external drive, could be to a new folder you create in your user space. Just don't copy them to a folder in ~/Desktop or ~/Documents as those folders will be zeroed out when you actually turn off iCloud.

So, for example, if I go to /Users/MacInWin, where MacInWin is my account name, and create a folder named "Holder" at that point, the full path to that folder is now /Users/MacInWin/Holder and therefore NOT in /Users/MacInWIn/Desktop or /Users/MacInWin/Documents. Now I can copy/paste the contents from ~/Desktop to ~/Holder/Desktop and from ~/Documents to ~/Holder/Documents and when done what had been in ~Desktop should now be in ~/Holder/Desktop and ~/Documents should be in ~/Holder/Documents. Because the ~/Holder folder is NOT stored in iCloud, the system has to download the full files from online to put the real documents and folders in ~/Holder.

At this point I have what I want stored safely away and can turn off iCloud. Theoretically, the system will now download all the real files from iCloud and put them into an Archive folder for me. That can take as much time as it took to copy from ~/Desktop and ~/Documents to ~/Holder as all of the files are again downloaded to this Archive.

At this point iCloud is now turned off, the archive downloaded and I've made my own safe copies. Now I can copy from ~/Holder/Desktop to ~/Desktop and from ~/Holder/Documents to ~/Documents and everything should be good. Or I can choose to, assuming I give the system sufficient time to download everything to that Archive, copy from the archive to the new ~/Desktop and ~/Documents folder. Theoretically either one should have everything that was in the two folders on iCloud. Note that at this point I may well have THREE copies of everything--one in ~/Desktop or ~/Documents, one in ~/Holder/Desktop or ~/Holder/Documents and maybe a third in the Archive folder the the system is supposed to create when I turn off iCloud. Once I do some checking to verify that I have everything I want/need in ~/Documents and ~/Desktop, I can delete the ~/Holder folder and all of the contents there, and/or delete the Archive file the system created and get back to just ONE copy in ~/Desktop and ~/Documents.

Of course, if you have an external drive, let's say named "External," you can just create Documents and Desktop folders on External, which will have path names /External/Documents and /External/Desktop and do the process with those locations instead of the ~/Holder location. That approach has the added value of some additional flexibility in that your internal drive won't have to have space for three copies, just two. The downside is that most of the time the external drives have a slower interface than the internal drives, so it takes longer to download/store and copy from an external.

Is that what you were asking? Turning off iCloud, once you turn it on, is not a trivial process. Make a backup of your Mac before you start monkeying with any of this, there are lots of ways it can go wrong.

 

[Marrk]

Thanks, Jake. Very helpful.

That's what I thought. However, what I learned from your post that I did not know before was the idea of making a copy before turning off iCloud, which, in turn, asks you to make another copy (archive).

Also, I was wondering if you could archive to an External drive. It's not really important, but I wondered if the process would give you an option like "Where do you want to download this archive to?"

 

[MacInWin]

I don't know @Marrk, I've never used iCloud that way, so I've never had to turn it off.

 

[Marrk]

I don't know @Marrk, I've never used iCloud that way, so I've never had to turn it off.

Every time you turn it off, they ask you to archive the data. Are you saying that you have never turned off iCloud?

 

[MacInWin]

I'm saying I never turned on the storage of Desktop and Documents to iCloud. I never checked this box:


and I never checked this box:


So I have never stored Desktop or Documents in iCloud. I do use iCloud to sync photos and I have occasionally stored a document in iCloud that I wanted to share with my iDevices. As a result, I've never had to deal with the aftermath of UNchecking either of those options.

 

[Rod]

Me neither, nor have I ever ticked the "Optimise Mac Storage" box. I have always managed to work within the limits of my HD and or EHD's where necessary.

 

[pm-r]

Is that what you were asking? Turning off iCloud, once you turn it on, is not a trivial process.

Thanks, Jake, and the whole iCloud thing is scarier and more involved than I thought.

Luckily I don't need any of the services it can provide and my multiple backup external drives suit me fine for storage, and I know how they work.


- Patrick
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[chscag]

Thanks, Jake, and the whole iCloud thing is scarier and more involved than I thought.

It's actually a lack of understanding how the iCloud storage of "documents and desktop" items is dealt with. Once you know how it works, iCloud storage especially for folks who have diminished storage on their Mac, can come in handy.

But if you're not careful and sign out of iCloud or turn it off, the results can be surprisingly disastrous.

Jake explained it very well.

 

[MacInWin]

It's actually a lack of understanding how the iCloud storage of "documents and desktop" items is dealt with. Once you know how it works, iCloud storage especially for folks who have diminished storage on their Mac, can come in handy.

But if you're not careful and sign out of iCloud or turn it off, the results can be surprisingly disastrous.

Jake explained it very well.

I agree, Charlie. It's not really scary, but it is a bit complex and anyone who doesn't really understand can get into trouble with it. But as you say, if you have diminished storage on the local machine and a high-speed internet, it can be very handy. Apple tried to make it easy to use, but that came at the expense of being very challenging to stop using it.

 

[harryb2448]

The best way to stop using it was never to start Jake!

 

[MacInWin]

The best way to stop using it was never to start Jake!

Correct, Harry, and why I never did start. At least now Apple does seem to download the Archives to the user. In the beginning, if you decided to turn the function off, it was just turned off and you could lose stuff.

 

[Marrk]

The best way to stop using it was never to start Jake!

Guess I'll have to buy new laptop.

Grrrrrrrrrrr

 

[MacInWin]

Why, @Marrk? Nothing in what we have discussed forces a new laptop purchase. Not that buying a new laptop isn't a good thing, it's just that nothing in iCloud or what we have discussed about it should drive that decision.

 

[Rod]

Every time you turn it off, they ask you to archive the data. Are you saying that you have never turned off iCloud?

Like Jake I have never turned it on. there are two things to avoid during setup of a new Mac Operating System. Both of which are offered, if not suggested during setup. Encryption and storage of your Documents and Desktop Files on iCloud drive.
Both are problematic and difficult to undo.

But Marrk, like Jake I cant see any reason why what we have discussed would force you to buy a new laptop?
Are you actually short of storage? I don't see where we discussed that.
I think of my MBP storage a bit like a filing cabinet. It requires a regularclean out and a reorganisation of its contents for space and convenience. There are a lot of documents I keep just because they may be important one day. It would not be a disaster if I lost them so I put them onto iCloud Drive so that they are available on all my devices. Things like invoices, bills of sale, old tax returns, bank records, various written documents like a folder of Mac Tips an Tricks I have built up over years etc.
My Password Manager is synced via iCloud so I can access that on any device I log into.
Photos I backup to an external drive for posterity but keep all the recent ones and some folders on my internal drive. I don't keep videos except for family ones.
The MBP is cloned using Carbon Copy Cloner to an SSD and backed up using Time Machine to a HDD.
I have never exceeded my 500GB of internal storage through four devices over nearly 20 years although my iPhone has gone from 16Gb to 128GB in the same time.
The vast majority of my storage is devoted to Apps, Documents and Photos and today I still have 182GB free on my MBP.
So house keeping is kinda essential and I tend to have a cull at each macOS upgrade (yearly), perform a "clean" instal of the OS and only drag over what I really want/need from my clone.
Otherwise it's a bit like buying a new filing cabinet each time the current one is full, you grow to fill the space you have.

 

[Marrk]

I just want to turn it off. This month, I am too busy with work to risk a computer glitch, but next month I will give it a try.

As I said above in this thread, I'm on High Sierra. When I click on iCloud, I do not see "Desktop" or "Documents." (Note: I have not selected or clicked on iCloud Drive.) As I understand my situation, my Desktop and Documents are not being stored in iCloud at present and will not be lost if I sign out of iCloud. But, for example, Safari is currently selected. If I sign out of iCloud, what happens to Safari? Will I lose all of my passwords?

 

[MacInWin]

If I sign out of iCloud, what happens to Safari? Will I lose all of my passwords?

No, but they won't sync between your various Apple devices. Mac/iPhone/iPad, etc. The passwords sync over iCloud. Not stored in iCloud, but synced over the service.

As I said above in this thread, I'm on High Sierra. When I click on iCloud, I do not see "Desktop" or "Documents." (Note: I have not selected or clicked on iCloud Drive.) As I understand my situation, my Desktop and Documents are not being stored in iCloud at present and will not be lost if I sign out of iCloud.

@Marrk, I just fired up my old HS MBP and looked at System Preferences. When I clicked on iCloud, I got this:



And when I clicked on the iCloud Drive Options button, I got this:



That is a High Sierra system, so if you are on HS, that is exactly what you should see. We've been over this before in this thread, but this time I've included screenshots to show it.

 

[Marrk]

Thanks, Jake.

I was afraid to click on iCloud Drive, but I suspected that that is what I would see.