Help - Safari Crashes

[chas_m]

No, you are wrong.

Look, it's really pretty simple. Google is an advertising company. EVERYTHING THEY DO is in the service of selling ads. That is how they make their money, and why everything they offer is free. The reason they are so good at selling ads (enough to make billions more than any ad agency on earth), is because everything they make serves a single purpose: to track the habits of the users in order to sell better, more targeted ads.

THIS IS THEIR BUSINESS MODEL.

Now, I'm not one who minds ads, and I'd prefer that if I have to see ads that they be targeted to my interests rather than not targeted to my interests, but this is what makes Google different than Microsoft or Apple or other such companies.

I didn't say Google was evil. I said they monitor what you do. This is a true statement, whereas your nonsense remark ... is nonsense.

How comfortable you are with Google's tracking is entirely up to you, but in order to understand what's going on with them, you HAVE to understand that their purpose in life *is different* to almost any other software maker. They exist to sell ads and for no other purpose.

 

[vansmith]

Well, seeing as how Google doesn't actually offer up any ads through Chrome, it's hard to imagine why they would track you with it. That and the fact that there is no evidence to support an argument that they do. I'd be happy to admit that I'm wrong but continually saying that Google's business model relies on advertising doesn't constitute evidence no matter how often you say it. I could claim that Apple is in the tracking business as well since they had that database of locations in the last version of iOS but I won't because there is no evidence to support a claim that they track Mac users.

Yes, my last post was nonsense but that was the point. There's no evidence for the claims I made nor is there any for yours so they are both equally as valid. Evidence is what differentiates the truth from the false.

 

[robduckyworth]

Google Wars, Episode III

 

[Geesix]

Chas m.

You are a champ, ever since I downloaded the clicktoflash like you said, no problems with my safari crashing. Two days an counting still nothing, before it was two times a day. Thanks a lot Chas you the man.

 

[chas_m]

Well, seeing as how Google doesn't actually offer up any ads through Chrome, it's hard to imagine why they would track you with it.

Of course they offer ads through Chrome. And every other web browser. All those ads you see on most sites are (mostly) Google ads (including everything by AdMob, don't forget).

Interestingly, Chrome is the ONLY browser that blocks the use of AdBlock (et al). Hmmm, wonder why that could be ...

I'd be happy to admit that I'm wrong but continually saying that Google's business model relies on advertising doesn't constitute evidence no matter how often you say it.

I appreciate a reasonable person, even when they are wrong.

All you have to do is look at Google's earnings statement. That will tell you where they make their money. Hint: it's not off sales of Google Earth Pro.

I could claim that Apple is in the tracking business as well since they had that database of locations in the last version of iOS but I won't because there is no evidence to support a claim that they track Mac users.

You're confusing (or conflating) two different kinds of tracking. Analyzing where you go on the web in order to determine what interests you so they can target ads better is Google's idea of tracking; determining the location of your cell phone so that GPS can locate you, the cell company knows where to send the call and 911 knows where to find you is the sort of tracking Apple (and all other cell phones) do. Two different things entirely.

Just because there's no written statement on Google's web site that everything they do is in service to making money off ads doesn't make it not true (indeed, it's bloody obvious). There's no statement on the GOP's web site that says "we hate minorities, immigrants and the poor, we love the rich, and our mission in life is to dismantle and defame everything FDR ever did for the American people" either, but again ...

 

[vansmith]

Of course they offer ads through Chrome. And every other web browser. All those ads you see on most sites are (mostly) Google ads (including everything by AdMob, don't forget).

And Apple offers ads through Safari, Mozilla offers ads through Firefox and Opera offers ads through Opera. It's not the browser that serves them - it's the webpage. A browser isn't intelligent - it simply does what the web designer wants it to do. If I embedded an ad in this post, it would show up on all three browsers.

You're confusing (or conflating) two different kinds of tracking. Analyzing where you go on the web in order to determine what interests you so they can target ads better is Google's idea of tracking; determining the location of your cell phone so that GPS can locate you, the cell company knows where to send the call and 911 knows where to find you is the sort of tracking Apple (and all other cell phones) do. Two different things entirely.

And you're conflating earnings with evidence of tracking. First off, let's remember that my iOS example was a hypothetical argument - I'm not actually making it. I put it out there though because, without evidence, I can claim it with as much validity as claiming that Google is tracking me through Chrome.

Just because there's no written statement on Google's web site that everything they do is in service to making money off ads doesn't make it not true (indeed, it's bloody obvious). There's no statement on the GOP's web site that says "we hate minorities, immigrants and the poor, we love the rich, and our mission in life is to dismantle and defame everything FDR ever did for the American people" either, but again ...

Again, I fail to see how this is obvious when there is no evidence to support it. Do you actually have any evidence that Chrome specifically tracks users or are you going to stick with conjecture and loose references to earnings reports that don't once mention Chrome and instead, note that income comes from advertising on Google websites (here)? Where does anyone say that Chrome shapes the advertising on their webpages?

Do you actually have any recorded or tangible proof that Chrome is taking my browsing habits and using them to serve up ads on their websites? If not, why should I believe you when you state that Chrome is tracking me? What proof would you need other than the proof I've presented in the past which showed no abnormal http traffic when using Chrome? Do you have any evidence besides "it's bloody obvious" which in no real world situation, like criminal trials, would count as sufficient evidence for anything.

 

[Shikarnov]

I use Safari on the Mac and IE9 on the HP so far so good.

IE9 had so much promise... And yet, when MS released it, I found that many of my sites needed yet another set of IE-specific code to make it look like it's supposed to. <sigh> I'll never understand why the largest software maker in the world, with so much talent in its four walls, just can't seem to get it right.

 

[chas_m]

And Apple offers ads through Safari, Mozilla offers ads through Firefox and Opera offers ads through Opera.

Um, no. Apple does not offer ads through Safari (etc). The website posts the ads, and Apple (et al) make no money off those ads.

You really just don't get it that Google *SELLS* ads, do you? I think that's the fundamental problem. You appear to not be aware that Google, unlike Microsoft or Apple, SELLS ADS. They are the agency BEHIND nearly ALL the ads you see online. Microsoft makes money primarily by selling software. Apple makes its money primarily by selling hardware. Google makes its money primarily by selling advertising.

Do you get this yet?

Do you actually have any recorded or tangible proof that Chrome is taking my browsing habits and using them to serve up ads on their websites?

Google admits Chrome tracks web addresses | News | PC Pro

What will Google's Chrome OS watch you do? | Webware - CNET

Microsoft Blasts Google Chrome For 'Stealing' Your Privacy (VIDEO) (video still available)

Google Safe-Browsing and Chrome Privacy Leak ha.ckers.org web application security lab

A simple (wait for it) Google search brings up all these and thousands of others. If you'd like, I'll keep on posting them till the lightbulb comes on. Cheers.

 

[vansmith]

Um, no. Apple does not offer ads through Safari (etc). The website posts the ads, and Apple (et al) make no money off those ads.

Nor does Chrome - that sentence was sarcastic. That's why it was followed by a description of what I meant: "It's not the browser that serves them - it's the webpage. A browser isn't intelligent - it simply does what the web designer wants it to do. If I embedded an ad in this post, it would show up on all three browsers."

You really just don't get it that Google *SELLS* ads, do you? I think that's the fundamental problem. You appear to not be aware that Google, unlike Microsoft or Apple, SELLS ADS. They are the agency BEHIND nearly ALL the ads you see online. Microsoft makes money primarily by selling software. Apple makes its money primarily by selling hardware. Google makes its money primarily by selling advertising.

Do you get this yet?

No need to be harsh. I understand very well what Google does for income - my last post made that very clear when I discussed their financial results.

Let's take a look at these sources one by one.

Google admits Chrome tracks web addresses | News | PC Pro - The auto-suggest feature referred to here is present in Safari and Firefox. How do you think search suggestions in those browsers work? I demonstrated this to you a while ago when I discussed the http traffic being sent by each respective browser but you didn't want to count that as sufficient evidence. If you don't like this feature, you can turn it off in the preferences (Chrome > Preferences > Under the Hood > uncheck "Use a prediction service to help complete searches and URLs typed in the address bar").

What will Google's Chrome OS watch you do? | Webware - CNET - Not only does that page state that they backtracked on their TOS but it also notes that the reporting feature is one that requires the use to opt-in.

Microsoft Blasts Google Chrome For 'Stealing' Your Privacy (VIDEO) (video still available) - Yes, the video does demonstrate that but the engineer neglects to tell you that the characters being sent are because of the search suggestions, something seen in Chrome, Firefox, Safari and IE9 (with Bing). Nothing new there. You should also note that the evidence being used there (an http sniffer) is one that you stated was insufficient. In fact, here's my post where I use it and your retort. I quote: "As for evidence, you're using the wrong tool. Try Little Snitch and watch what happens." He was using Fiddler, an http sniffer. So, is an http sniffer finally sufficient or are you only going to count it when it helps your argument?

Google Safe-Browsing and Chrome Privacy Leak ha.ckers.org web application security lab - First up, the Safe Browsing feature is used by Chrome, Firefox and Safari so that point is moot. As for the machine/user id, that is optional and can be disabled (Chrome > Preferences > Under the Hood > uncheck "Automatically send usage statistics and crash reports to Google"). Sure, some may find that problematic but given the fact that you can opt-out of it and the fact that it is anonymous makes privacy concerns largely irrelevant.

Listen, if you don't like Chrome, that's fine. That said, there's no need to post sensational claims about a product that is not only under intense scrutiny by the media (given Google's advertising strategy) but by other developers given that a significant portion of it is open source.

 

[schweb]

Look, it's really pretty simple. Google is an advertising company. EVERYTHING THEY DO is in the service of selling ads. That is how they make their money, and why everything they offer is free. The reason they are so good at selling ads (enough to make billions more than any ad agency on earth), is because everything they make serves a single purpose: to track the habits of the users in order to sell better, more targeted ads.

THIS IS THEIR BUSINESS MODEL.

No one is denying that. However, your assertion that Chrome itself purposely spies on you is absolutely absurd and false. Especially given it's an open source project, should be pretty easy to find this "spy" code in there and I can't believe all the open source zealots giving time to the project would be ok with building this in there.

All browsers display ads. Google will track your ad behavior regardless of which browser you use, Chrome, Safari, or anything else.

Also, it's funny that Google actually implemented the "do not follow" preference (which Apple has yet to do with Safari) and designed an extension specifically for ensuring your advertising opt-outs are honored everywhere you go with Chrome. That doesn't exist for Safari.

I like both browser, what I don't like is unsupported FUD disguised as factual statements.

Of course they offer ads through Chrome. And every other web browser. All those ads you see on most sites are (mostly) Google ads (including everything by AdMob, don't forget).

Interestingly, Chrome is the ONLY browser that blocks the use of AdBlock (et al). Hmmm, wonder why that could be ... .

Again, another mistruth because I actually run the AdBlock extension (and have been for a very long tim) in Chrome and it works just fine. Where's your evidence for this statement or is it just assumption based on your severe dislike for the Chrome browser?

Can we at least keep things honest and not post outright mistruths?

 

[vansmith]

As a supplement to my critique of the MS video on Chrome, I ran Fiddler and did searches in IE9, Chrome, Firefox and Safari. This is what I found:

Chrome:


Firefox:


IE9:


Safari:


You'll notice that as I search for "test" in each (except for Firefox where I searched for "mac-forums"), each keystroke was sent to the search provider so as to provide search suggestions. As well, the Safari install was a default one - I didn't have it installed before running this test. So, as you can see, the search suggestion "privacy issue" is one shared across browsers. It is by no means unique.

 

[bazanders]

At the end of the day, the simple truth is both firefox and chrome seem better equiped at browsing, you dont have all these flash issues like with safari, they seem more stable and generally quicker.
You only have to read any of a whole host of reviews of the current generation of browsers, and you will see safari last in just about all of them

 

[dtravis7]

Actually with tests I have done here on my machine, Safari is right up there. Some beat it in some tests, but Safari is ahead in other tests.

The Windows version of Safari is a bit behind on some of the benchmarks though.

I have them all installed along with Opera, but for overall daily use, use Safari probably the most and since the last updates not one crash, even on Flash sites.

 

[vansmith]

You only have to read any of a whole host of reviews of the current generation of browsers, and you will see safari last in just about all of them

Not in anything I've read. The WebKit builds Apple uses in Safari are more than capable of handling just about anything one can throw at them and can do it well. It's consistently good on JS benchmarks, handled CSS tests well and manages some advanced HTML5 elements. Now, it does have a slower development cycle relative to the other browsers but this doesn't mean that Safari is a terrible browser.

You also need to consider user experience. In that category, I'd have to say that Firefox comes last - it's slow, bloated and has terrible integration.