Filmmaker needs help

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phoebe

Guest
Hi,

I'm new to this forum and hope you can help me out. I'm a web designer that has a client who is a filmmaker. I created a site for his production company about a year ago and I'm still maintaining it. Here's the situation:

He's got a public access tv series that he records on 3 1/4 beta and would now like to make the switch over to the web. He wants to stream one new episode per month (runs about 30 min. each) for people to view, and if they like it, he wants them to be able to download the episode for a fee. I would like to be able to accommodate him but I think I may be getting in way over my head!

My client wants to convert each episode over to DVD so that I can work off of that. I'm thinking I can just put it onto Quick Time but then I heard something about needing an encoder to compress it down even more. Obviously, he wants high end resolution as well. Plus, I was told that I also need to create 2 different versions to accommodate Optonline, DSL, and AOL users??? Needless to say, I think I grew a few grey hairs over that one!

I work on a G4 with Mac OS 10.2.8 and an 800 MHZ processor. The website is hosted by Verio and they support Real audio/video. I work only using a Mac and am somewhat more familiar with Quicktime. What are some of the first steps I should know about to even consider if this is feasible???

Any suggestions or links you can point me to would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks in advance...:eek:
 
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dmroper

Guest
You sound like the type of person who knows the routine, so up front I'll say that I'm not trying to belittle you at all. My suggestion (humourous though it may seem, for what it's worth) would be the same method I use when I'm way in over my head troubleshooting network issues, debugging, etc..

1. Dummies books galore. There is no shame in dummies books (or even in those samse books- teach yourself brain surgery in 21 days 24 hours and 1440 minutes). Find an equivelent that suits you, and maybe even spend some time in Borders and/or Barnes and Noble sipping chai (or espresso- whatever) while reviewing the material to see if it suits you..

2. Appropriate the use of any local educator offering classes specific to what it is that you're crunching to try to do. For example, A tech school near where I am is offering a class in- guess whaqt - "Streaming Media/Dynamic Web Cntent (or so the course title says)..

3, Forums like this. Sooner or later, you'll run accross a really good group of people, those I call "saints", who seem completely willing to assist you and/or to point you in the right direction.

Hope this helps (though I'm sure you're looking for some more.. uh.. specific information.. lol

Sorry..

Had to break the tension.
 
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RobDreugan

Guest
The first thing you need to do is find a way to take the Beta tape and transfer the tapes into a format that you can capture on to your mac. Or at least you need to tell him, there's nothing short of a professional studio that has millions to spend, that would have a beta deck hooked into a system in such a way that you could capture footage.

That's your first step, get it on a format that you can capture the show on to your mac. Most likely the easiest way would be to put it on MiniDV so that you can import from a camera.

Bottomline you need to find a way to get it to your hard drive via firewire.

If you're really just a webdesigner you're pretty much completely over your head into this.

1. Dvd studio pro really would be best for full dvd control, but you can get away with using IDVD; just be sure to take the apple watermark off at least.

2. You need to know more about video, you wouldn't compress video if your intent was to deliever it via DVD. You let the software do that when it goes to burn the DVD. You always want to keep your media as uncompressed as possible, in order to not lose any quality.

3. Going to the web with it.

a) I don't know how long it was going to be. You said they are 30 minute episodes, but he only wants to give them a teaser? Which how long would that be?

b) To Stream a 30 minute episode is not a problem, but it's a huge file size. For a cable/dsl etc it won't matter as much, but you're looking at least 100 megs and that's with some pretty heavy compression.

-To stream a 30 minute episode for a dial up user, is an effort in futility. You either have to sacrafice the quality of video, audio, resolution or bit rate. In theory you'd have to sacrafice the quality of all them to compress it down enough to where someone would even attempt to get it over a modem.

I've never tried to stream something as long as 30 minutes, but know that it's completely unlikely that you could create a 30 minute file that was enjoyable to watch or hear, that would still be worth a dial-up users' to download. I'd be shocked if it were under 30 megs with a high level of compression and a small resolution.

Again I'm estimating.

(As far as using real media, my personal feeling is that it's a pretty inconvienent one to use. .WMV and quick time are pretty much free to use and encode with, whereas you have to pay for the real media software to encode, and users who would download the player are prompted to buy it etc..)

.wmv or .mov/.mp4 would be a good way to go.

Wow, that's a mouthful.

Hope that helps some.
 
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phoebe

Guest
Rob,

First off, thanks for the great advice and for kindly taking the time to share your knowledge on this subject with me. I've been reading up on streaming but it's a big help hearing from people like you with actual experience doing it. While I am mainly a web/graphic designer, I've always had an interest in the area of video/audio as well. I guess the best way to learn anything is to just dive in and do it, right?

To clarify, my client does in fact want to run the entire episode - actually 1 new episode per month. The episodes are all taped in B/W and they run about 30 min. each. He originally wanted people to be able to download it for a fee, but has since changed his mind. As you are probably aware, there are many sites out there that run entire full length movies. I think many independent filmmakers are now taking advantage of this medium as a means of getting their work noticed on a worldwide scale. That's the sole objective of my client.

In response to two areas of of advice you provided:

1. The first thing you need to do is find a way to take the Beta tape and transfer the tapes into a format that you can capture on to your mac. Bottomline you need to find a way to get it to your hard drive via firewire.

I do have firewire and iDVD. My client wants to burn the episodes onto standard individual DVDs and give them to me that way. I guess I was assuming that I would be able to capture the episode off the DVD and put it into Quicktime. So, are you saying that he has to transfer it over to MiniDv first, and then I would import it to my mac through the camera?

2. To Stream a 30 minute episode is not a problem, but it's a huge file size. For a cable/dsl etc it won't matter as much, but you're looking at least 100 megs and that's with some pretty heavy compression.

Yeah, I was telling my client that the file size would be enormous for those people with only dial ups. Ok, so considering the file size, and once I capture the footage for streaming, I have to find some kind of software that would compress it before it goes on the web, right? Would Quicktime do something like this or would I have to spend big $$ on new software?

One of my concerns, is that the hosting company my client is with currently supports Real Audio/Video. I agree with your advice about Quicktime and would like to stick with that instead. Does this mean I would have to find him another host that supports QuickTime? Also, during my research I discovered that there are actual streaming hosts out there who specifically cater to websites that have streaming media. Have you had any experience with them?

My other concern is my computer's ability to handle this. My client wants me to capture a new episode and upload it at the beginning of each month. My Mac is a G4 800 MHz with 62.56 GB. I have the entire root folder for the website on my desk top and once I get this going, it will also store the file for the episode. My friends laugh at me when I get concerned about used up space on my hard drive despite having 62.56 gigs. I guess it should be fine.. right?? (Just humor me on this one Rob!)

Thanks for your patience. Hope you can assist with these follow up questions. Once again, you were a tremendous help starting me off in the right direction. Much appreciated...
 
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RobDreugan

Guest
phoebe said:
Rob,

I guess the best way to learn anything is to just dive in and do it, right?

Certainly can't hurt. It can just be more pressure when you're trying to actually work on a real life project for it. Doing it in your spare time at least can afford mistakes hehe.

I think many independent filmmakers are now taking advantage of this medium as a means of getting their work noticed on a worldwide scale. That's the sole objective of my client.

I agree 100%. For someone who is trying to get their work noticed, the internet is a great forum for it.

I do have firewire and iDVD. My client wants to burn the episodes onto standard individual DVDs and give them to me that way. I guess I was assuming that I would be able to capture the episode off the DVD and put it into Quicktime. So, are you saying that he has to transfer it over to MiniDv first, and then I would import it to my mac through the camera?

If they are on beta tapes, there has to be a step to get them to your hard drive, and then to DVD. So, one way or another it has to become data if you're the one who's burning the dvd for him. Since, you don't have a beta cam or deck laying around, espeically one that would have a firewire connection, you have no choice but to take his media, and convert it to a format that you can at some point capture to your system.

The easiest thing I can think of is to do a deck to deck transfer, from beta to MiniDV, and then take a MiniDV deck or camera, and firewire to your mac, and then capture.

You want to make sure you're in standard NTSC 48k 4:3 when you go to capture. When captured it'll be a quicktime movie, so there's no need to render anything else. Basically, from there you'd bring that into IDVD and go to town.


Ok, so considering the file size, and once I capture the footage for streaming, I have to find some kind of software that would compress it before it goes on the web, right? Would Quicktime do something like this or would I have to spend big $$ on new software?

I'm not sure what you're using for editing. If you are using final cut express or pro, regardless quicktime is the backbone for those systems.
It's free to encode with quicktime. As long as you have the player you could compress it. It's best if you have software like cleaner, final cut, and possibly imovie, but I've never used it.

Bottomline for you. It should cost absolutely nothing to create streaming, compressed quicktime movies. As I said in the first post, creating Windows Media Video files is also an option. However, the encoding application is only for PC as of right now. The Player is used on both mac and pc. (If you go that route, you have to make sure of something. When you encode, the encoder and the player on your system HAVE to be the same version or you're going to run into problems very quickly.)


One of my concerns, is that the hosting company my client is with currently supports Real Audio/Video. I agree with your advice about Quicktime and would like to stick with that instead. Does this mean I would have to find him another host that supports QuickTime? Also, during my research I discovered that there are actual streaming hosts out there who specifically cater to websites that have streaming media. Have you had any experience with them?

When you say they support real audio and video, does this mean they have a real audio streaming server? All "web servers" have the ability to handle virtually ANY file type. All it's really doing is sending the data once you request it via http or ftp. Now, if you mean they have a specific feature that can let the movies play in a queue or something, where it is a true "streaming server" then that's a whole other ball game.

From what it sounds to me though, it sounds like it's just a web server and they say it supports real media files. When I say whole other ball game, I mean to say, that you may then have problems using other files if that server specifically is a real media streaming server.

Both windows media player and quicktime offer free information and data in order to set up a "streaming server." This is an unnecessary step as all you need to do is either have a direct link to the video, or embed the video into the page to watch, and it will stream b/c the file is design to stream(i.e. it can be watched while it's downloading).

My advice is go with quicktime streaming files. I think they overall can look a bit better than the WMV files. Also, nearly everyone has both wmv and qt players, so again they are more universal than real media. And i think real media quality isn't that great.

My Mac is a G4 800 MHz with 62.56 GB. I have the entire root folder for the website on my desk top and once I get this going, it will also store the file for the episode. My friends laugh at me when I get concerned about used up space on my hard drive despite having 62.56 gigs. I guess it should be fine.. right?? (Just humor me on this one Rob!)

Between the PC i use for storage to my left and my G5 right here, I've got in the pc, a 20 gig drive, an 80 gig drive, a 120 gig drive; and in the G5 I have a 160 gig drive, and an external firewire 800 160 gig drive. And I can say with no doubt in my mind I want another internal 250 gig drive for a scratch disk for projects just like what you're talking about.

You're 60 gigs are going to go very very quickly. In my opinion you should invest in an external drive for capture and storage that is at least firewire 400, but if there is a way to utilize an 800 do so. You're going to need the storage capacity. The files you put up on the site for download might eventually total a few gigs worth after getting most of the episodes up, but realistically you're going to have 20-30 gig capture files per episode.

I've got a wedding I did which totaled roughly 40 minutes of total air time, that is a 100gig project, from captured files, to rendered output files, to everything i prepared before going to DVD.

Thanks for your patience. Hope you can assist with these follow up questions. Once again, you were a tremendous help starting me off in the right direction. Much appreciated...

Wow I feel like i just wrote the preface for the bill of rights or something.

Anyway, you're welcome. Hopefully this'll help more. There's alot to learn and know about when it comes to video and streaming. In my opinion it's like deciding you want to learn PHP having never looked at script and to just jump right in. Obviously, it's not as abstract, but there's still plenty to know.
 
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phoebe

Guest
Hey,

Once again... you rule Rob! Very helpful information. I won't be editing any of the episodes myself (thank GOD!), although that may be something I'd eventually get into. My client writes, directs, and edits it all himself. But for now, I just need to capture it and put it up on the website.

I have a video camera that I haven't used for a while. Unfortunately, it doesn't use miniDV. It's the High8. I hope that doesn't pose any problems! I'll have to check with my client to see if he can transfer the episode over to that format.

I'm uncertain if his hosting company has a real audio streaming server. I'll have to check with them but I tend to agree with you. They are probably just a basic server.

My client sent me an email today and wants me to check out tp://www.playstream.com (outdated link removed). He said some guy told him that they charge him only $10 a month and that if you want to stream a full frame picture at 30fps it can be done. There are limitations and they are more on the side of the viewers and the type of internet access they have. I'm still a little confused about the difference between a standard hosting company and a streaming server company. Is it just that the streaming server company is better equipped to handle this kind of multimedia?

Are there any other issues I should know about such as problems regarding different types of internet access? Someone told me I would have to make different versions for Optonline, DSL and AOL users!! If I'm using QuickTime would I have to actually worry about that?

Thanks again for your time Rob...


:p

PS - Checked out your site. Very cool!
 
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RobDreugan

Guest
Couple of slight problems.

1. A High-8 Camera doesn't have a 3ccd chipset. By this I mean a 3 chip charged coupled device, that has a computer which each of the 3 handles 1 of the primary colors of light.

So, a quick lesson is that a prosumer or consumer grade camera would have a 1ccd or maybe what they call a 1.5 ccd setup, where 1 chip interprets the red, green, and blue together.

All this really means, is that a 3ccd camera can video tape 3 times more information, thus making the picture that much better than a 1ccd camera.

Hi-8 to my knowledge is and will only ever be a 1ccd and I don't believe that copying to it will preserve the quality of video that a betacam has. Realize that a betacam, is a studio quality 3ccd camera. (Think of the whole process like copying a dvd on to a vhs tape, it's going to look awful, unless you copy it onto something that is digital.)

Again, I've never specifically used a streaming server for hosting, but its whole purpose is to stream media. To my knowledge it does nothing else. One use of it could be, if someone wants to show 3 movie clips all day, the streaming server could be told to loop and play those three. However, if someone goes to watch, the movie clips would be in progress. Like you could tune in, during the middle of one and have to sit and watch through each of them to advance.

Whereas, if it's not setup like or, which anyone can do with a normal server, you could just have a file, someone goes there, they click on a link to watch, and things begin to stream.

With streaming finding a good server is all about your bandwidth. Check out powweb.com it's 5 gigs per day which is quite a bit. They keep upping it as well. (Btw I just did a rough estimate based on that site u linked, for how much it would cost for a 30 min ep, that's streaming friendly for all types of users and it was 40 something a month, and i have no idea the play frequency etc.)

Stick to using a hosting company for normal services and just stream that way, it's cheaper, and most likely less of a headache.

And thx, about the site. That's kinda my pet project on the side. I'm working on a flash site for my business at the moment. That'll be my where I can show off some flash, after effect and editing skills all built into a site. I'm kinda tired of how lobotomysquad.com looks anyway hehe.
 
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phoebe

Guest
Had a feeling there might be a problem with the camera I have. But I understand what you're saying and it makes perfect sense.

I do recall my client mentioning the possibility of his friend emailing me the episode! Although, I don't know what what kind of file it would be. Considering it runs 30 min., I know it will take forever to download even though I have optonline.

Well, it seems I've got my work cut out for me. The first step being to capture the episode onto my computer! But at least you've given me a foundation where to start. If I have anymore questions I'll probably be back pestering you for advice again!

Thanks,
Phoebe ;)
 

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