Bad Apple store experience

[kilo15]

Let me start off right away by saying that I appreciate your civil and thoughtful response. The last thing I was looking for was any kind of forum fiasco and posting war.

And secondly, I agree completely. The idea is that innovation, as you put it "incentive to buy" is the key. In this day in age it's relatively easy and financially viable to produce high quality content at home, whether it be video, music, pictures, etc, that rivals some of the work the big boys in Hollywood do. And it's even easier to distribute this media. The internet and the power of the modern day personal computer is bringing user generated content to the fore front and soon this lower cost and/or free content may take a big chunk of pro media's money. Competition is golden!

Now, that's not to say that having a million dollar budget, professional marketing and years of experience doesn't make it easier for the RIAA, MPAA, etc.... but the lack of ridiculous access to this resources means the little guy has to provide interesting and engaging content. Most importantly has to be unique, resourceful and talented.


Example... I find myself lost in the world of podcasting and blogging and I am sure that the big news corporations are sensing this shift and starting to feel a little bit of pressure (Fox picking up Myspace still comes to mind).

Innovation isthe key. There are a million places for me to find new exciting content on the web that is legal, free and professionally made. When I'm bored I move on... and that includes mainstream media.


Oh, what was this thread about? That apple store lady?

FWIW, she was completely out of line. I manage/run the service department division of the company I work for and I would never, ever allow myself or one of my techs to make any kind of statements like that lady said to a customer. It's not my business. (Ok the exception is kid porn... I'd gladly put a dangerous person in jail, even if it meant losing my job.)

Great to have a civilized debate...Thanks.

The lady forgot the golden rule of customer service. The customer is always right. EXCEPT IF YOUR ARE A DEPRAVED KIDDY PORN TYPE.
I would seriously call apple. You might get some free stuff out of it.

I love this forum.

 

[baggss]

Actually, it should be noted that it IS illegal to backup or copy DVDs. It has nothing to do with sharing the video, but rather the copy protection on the DVD itself. It is against the law to bypass that encryption, which is necessary to backup the DVD.

Even if you're just doing it for personal use, it is technically illegal. This is why commercial programs that backup DVDs don't last very long on the market as they get sued into ceasing production. Take DVDXCopy as an example for the Windows platform. It was an amazing piece of software and took only a few clicks to backup a DVD. But since it bypassed DVD encryption, it was sued and went out of business.

That's a blanket statement that doesn't apply everywhere. Technically it IS NOT illegal to make back up copies for personal use in the US under DMCA, but it is under other laws, so there is a conflict. There are places, like Canada, where it is perfectly legal to do so.

 

[Kash]

Well I was assuming the OP is a citizen of the United States, which is an assumption I will make unless it is explicitly stated otherwise, either in a post or in the Location tab under a member's name.

Also, I stated that it isn't the act of backing up a DVD that's illegal, but rather the MEANS one must utilize to do so. On February 20, 2004, a federal judge ruled that breaking the encryption on a DVD is illegal, even if the consumer just wanted to use the backup for personal use.

 

[mikeyman]

Well I was assuming the OP is a citizen of the United States, which is an assumption I will make unless it is explicitly stated otherwise, either in a post or in the Location tab under a member's name.

Also, I stated that it isn't the act of backing up a DVD that's illegal, but rather the MEANS one must utilize to do so. On February 20, 2004, a federal judge ruled that breaking the encryption on a DVD is illegal, even if the consumer just wanted to use the backup for personal use.

But assuming he want to copy his "family holiday 'movie' " dvd he didnt get an opportunity to explain, i would report this to apple store manager and state that its totoally unexceptable and have that employee repramanded for there actions.
You might even get some money off
or apple movie vouchers to persuade you from ripping dvds

 

[Kash]

The OP said "DVDs I currently own" not "DVDs I made", so it's a fair assumption to think that he's talking about commercial DVDs he paid money for.

 

[baggss]

Well I was assuming the OP is a citizen of the United States, which is an assumption I will make unless it is explicitly stated otherwise, either in a post or in the Location tab under a member's name.

Also, I stated that it isn't the act of backing up a DVD that's illegal, but rather the MEANS one must utilize to do so. On February 20, 2004, a federal judge ruled that breaking the encryption on a DVD is illegal, even if the consumer just wanted to use the backup for personal use.

Your assumption that anyone who posts is a US citizen is rather narrow minded. We have members here from all over the world. Just because it is illegal in the US doesn't mean it is everywhere and blanket statements like that make you look provincial.

If the DVD is not encrypted, as many are not, then there is no issue here. The article you linked too specifically mentioned anti-piracy software used to protect DVDs. While some new DVDs have this (Sony is the big guilty party, along with some Disney releases) the majority still have no protection. Most CDs purchased today would not not be illegal to copy based on that ruling.

 

[Kash]

Ok, for starters, I assumed he was an American because the vast majority of members on this board ARE American. I have a better chance answering correctly by making such an assumption than by waiting for the OP to let us know otherwise. In fact, it doesn't make me "provincial" but rather makes it seem as though YOU have an inferiority complex by not being part of the majority group of members. This is further exacerbated by the fact that you are making such a big deal about the man's nationality.

Also, where are you getting the information that most DVDs are not encrypted? The vast majority of commercial DVDs sold in the United States are encrypted with CSS (content-scrambling system), its specific purpose being to discourage people from copying the disc. Set-top DVD players and DVD software have the keys needed to play DVDs with CSS. Without the key, they won't play. Hence, when you use a DVD ripping program, it has to CRACK that CSS in order to get to the actual video files.

Now you mentioning Sony and Disney, it's also clear you're confusing CD copy protection with DVD copy protection. All those rootkit and other protection schemes are on music CDs, not on DVDs. So you're right when you say that the majority of CDs don't have copy protection, but that simply isn't the case with commercial DVDs.

 

[baggss]

Ok, for starters, I assumed he was an American because the vast majority of members on this board ARE American. I have a better chance answering correctly by making such an assumption than by waiting for the OP to let us know otherwise. In fact, it doesn't make me "provincial" but rather makes it seem as though YOU have an inferiority complex by not being part of the majority group of members. This is further exacerbated by the fact that you are making such a big deal about the man's nationality.

Also, where are you getting the information that most DVDs are not encrypted? The vast majority of commercial DVDs sold in the United States are encrypted with CSS (content-scrambling system), its specific purpose being to discourage people from copying the disc. Set-top DVD players and DVD software have the keys needed to play DVDs with CSS. Without the key, they won't play. Hence, when you use a DVD ripping program, it has to CRACK that CSS in order to get to the actual video files.

Now you mentioning Sony and Disney, it's also clear you're confusing CD copy protection with DVD copy protection. All those rootkit and other protection schemes are on music CDs, not on DVDs. So you're right when you say that the majority of CDs don't have copy protection, but that simply isn't the case with commercial DVDs.

1)I see you have set this special time aside to make yourself look foolish in front of the whole forum. I am a US citizen, I live in California. I am part of your "majority" but I understand that there are plenty of non US members here. Be careful of making generalizations, you making yourself look foolish. And lest you think the fact that I live in California makes me some sort of stereotypical California nut, I am also a registered Republican.

2) The DVD encryption I am referring to is called RipGuard and ARccOS. Sony and Disney are specifically using this form of encryption/protection to foil most DVD ripping apps. I'm not confusing anything but I suspect you are.The CSS encryption may have been a big thing it 2003 when that article was pertinent, but I doubt it is today considering the flourishing number of DVD copying Apps on the market, none of which are currently facing litigation.

3) You correct about most DVDs having CSS encryption.

 

[Kash]

If you're an American, then why are you getting so bent out of shape? I can understand your argument if the OP had chimed in that he was not an American, in which case my assumption would have been incorrect and you would be right chastising me for making said assumption. However, since the OP hasn't explicitly stated his location using the option in his profile nor has he stated it in this thread, I'm going to assume he is an American as, statistically speaking, I would probably be right. Now, if he posts that he's from another country, then I would retract my statement. There's no need to get hostile over an assumption that anybody else would make. I'm not making myself look like a fool, I'm simply doing what anybody else would do.

Now, I ALSO understand that there are members here who are not American. But that doesn't mean I'm going to go and find every copyright law from every nation and post it here on the off-chance that the OP may be from one of those countries, especially in light of the fact that I don't have his exact location. I would be better off stating the laws of the country from which the majority of members on this board are citizens of as more often than not, I would be correct.

I find all this political correctness to be a bunch of nonsense. If I am making an assumption based on prior experience, it doesn't make me stupid or foolish. It simply shows that I have observed a certain set of conditions and am applying them in my responses. Hypothetically, if I found that the majority of the members were from the United Kingdom, then I wouldn't be spitting US law at them, but rather those from the UK. But would you call me foolish for making the assumption that the majority of members were from the UK when there were members from the US or some other European country? So it is not I who is making myself look foolish, but rather it is you who is being uptight. Don't go on about incorrect assumptions and generalizations unless you have some sort of proof to show my assumptions to be incorrect.

Finally, the reason I posted that link is to show that using a program which bypasses CSS, which many commercial DVDs have, is illegal. Last I checked, this was the very thing that programs such as DVD Shrink and Mac the Ripper do, hence, selling, and consequently using, such a product would be illegal.

 

[baggss]

If you're an American, then why are you getting so bent out of shape? I can understand your argument if the OP had chimed in that he was not an American, in which case my assumption would have been incorrect and you would be right chastising me for making said assumption. However, since the OP hasn't explicitly stated his location using the option in his profile nor has he stated it in this thread, I'm going to assume he is an American as, statistically speaking, I would probably be right. Now, if he posts that he's from another country, then I would retract my statement. There's no need to get hostile over an assumption that anybody else would make. I'm not making myself look like a fool, I'm simply doing what anybody else would do.

Because the small mindedness that leads most Americans to believe that everyone who doesn't specify where they are from is one of us annoys the crap out of me. Places like this have many members who live outside of the US. Blanket statements like "that's illegal" make us look superficial and self centered. Try thinking beyond the borders of the US for once. Heck, you even assumed that I was not an American because I took exception with your statement! What does THAT tell you? Trust me, this is not political correctness, so don't mistake it as such. You are perhaps the first person I know who has ever alluded to the possibility of me being "politically correct". This is simple courtesy for other forum members.

I don't need proof, a cursory look around the forums will show a fair number of non American members here. Yes, the majority are Americans, but so what? Stop being so self centered for a bit and look around.

As far as the CSS issue goes, I stand corrected. While the court ruled that, I don't think it really maters one way or the other in light of the OPs post. The girl in the store had no business treating him in that manner. And while the court DID rule that it was illegal for them to make/sell the software, the legality of using such software may be in question. An unenforceable law is a useless law either way.

 

[D3v1L80Y]

OK, I think that we all know that when you assume something, you make a small, grey, long-eared equine of yourself before me.
SO... let's all stop assuming things about other posters, period.
Let us also stop the back and forth bickering, lest this thread be closed.
All countries have different laws regarding this subject, however; this forum chooses to follow the laws and guidelines set by the United States. We will leave it at that.

Back on topic:
To the OP, I don't think there is much to be done at this point. When something like that happens and you are made to feel uncomfortable, then you should speak to a supervisor or manager directly. Going back or calling days later won't do much good, and really won't help you. The best thing you can do if you were offended that severly, is to simply cease going there to shop.
Apple does have on online store that can ship you the exact same things that you would find in the retail store, without the hassle of a sales clerk.
By not going back, you are making a much larger statement than calling and filing a complaint.

 

[Say_Cheese]

Thanks all for your opinions on this subject. As I have no time to get back to the store before end of next week I think that I will just drop it and put it down to a bad experience. Although I could buy from the online store I prefer to buy in person because I am too impatient to wait.

Oh and to settle an argument, I am in London England. I will update my profile now to reflect this.

 

[Cahill]

Actually, it should be noted that it IS illegal to backup or copy DVDs. It has nothing to do with sharing the video, but rather the copy protection on the DVD itself. It is against the law to bypass that encryption, which is necessary to backup the DVD.

Even if you're just doing it for personal use, it is technically illegal. This is why commercial programs that backup DVDs don't last very long on the market as they get sued into ceasing production. Take DVDXCopy as an example for the Windows platform. It was an amazing piece of software and took only a few clicks to backup a DVD. But since it bypassed DVD encryption, it was sued and went out of business.

However, I will agree that the employee was stupid for raising her voice and going off on a moral tirade. She could have quietly stated that it was illegal and couldn't talk about it as many consumers are unaware that backing up DVDs is illegal since ripping CDs is so commonplace.

Though I'm a bit surprised you just stood there and took it. I would have asked her to calm down and then would have talked to her manager right then and there. I deal with a lot of customers in my job, but I never raise my voice, regardless of how much of a nitwit the customer is being.

Very well put, it is illegal to bypass copy-protection on anything copy-protected. This was why Harmony from RealNetworks 'broke the law' because they bypassed Apple's FairPlay copy-protection. After that, RealNetworks were lucky they did not get sued by Apple.