Android Is As Open As The Clenched Fist I’d Like To Punch The Carriers With

[Lifeisabeach]

This is mostly BS. The UI is easily customizable, so yeah, it's different. Manufacturers come up with their own, but you can easily install whatever you want from the market.

Meh. I guess I'll concede this one. I'd like a little more flexibility with my iPhone, but it's a relatively trivial dislike. And easily overcome by jailbreaking it. One of the problems with the Android's inconsistency though is the aftermarket accessories. How can Alpine or Pioneer make and market an "Android compatible" car radio that will let you control your music player through the radio more easily while on the go when there's no consistency from one device to the next? The varying form factors and connection locations pretty much guarantee there will never be a vibrant ecosystem for Android in general. Maybe a select item for select devices every now and then, but that's as good as it'll get.

And if by "growing number of malware" you mean two that only work in Russia that it would take a complete idiot to infect themselves with, then yeah, it's "growing."

The malware disguised as a media player that secretly sends out SMS messages to Russia doesn't just work in Russia. And explain how it takes a complete idiot to infect themselves. More so… how much more of a complete idiot one would be vs a Windows user infecting themselves. Do you believe it's just that much harder to get ahold of a malicious app (yes, Google "warns" you about not using their marketplace, but then they allowed support for 3rd party marketplaces to begin with, so….), or are Android users somehow more intelligent overall than Windows users?

There also have been more than two. A couple have hit Google's own marketplace, though they did remove them after they learned of what was going on. Emphasis on after. Lotta good that may have done to anyone who got burnt in the meanwhile. Google is reactive to these issues, not proactive.

 

[dan828]

The malware disguised as a media player that secretly sends out SMS messages to Russia doesn't just work in Russia. And explain how it takes a complete idiot to infect themselves. More so… how much more of a complete idiot one would be vs a Windows user infecting themselves. Do you believe it's just that much harder to get ahold of a malicious app (yes, Google "warns" you about not using their marketplace, but then they allowed support for 3rd party marketplaces to begin with, so….), or are Android users somehow more intelligent overall than Windows users?

There also have been more than two. A couple have hit Google's own marketplace, though they did remove them after they learned of what was going on. Emphasis on after. Lotta good that may have done to anyone who got burnt in the meanwhile. Google is reactive to these issues, not proactive.

No. The SMS message thing only worked in Russia. If installed elsewhere it couldn't send the expensive messages. And the idiocy is this: to infect yourself you'd have to change default security settings, install an app from a seedy website, and click yes when the warning came up that says you are giving this app access to your SMS system and that it can send messages that will cost you money. If alarm bells aren't going off by then, when a supposed multimedia app is requesting SMS access, then there just isn't any hope for you.

Also, please give some examples of malware that was on the marketplace. I am not aware of any.

 

[XJ-linux]

No. The SMS message thing only worked in Russia. If installed elsewhere it couldn't send the expensive messages. And the idiocy is this: to infect yourself you'd have to change default security settings, install an app from a seedy website, and click yes when the warning came up that says you are giving this app access to your SMS system and that it can send messages that will cost you money. If alarm bells aren't going off by then, when a supposed multimedia app is requesting SMS access, then there just isn't any hope for you.

Also, please give some examples of malware that was on the marketplace. I am not aware of any.

Good points, but you are arguing with a brick wall I'm afraid. I found the "Ignore" button more effective. Oddly, all I was attempting to state was that while both the iPhone and Android are great in areas, neither are perfect either. That REALLY hisses some folks off I guess.

 

[Lifeisabeach]

No. The SMS message thing only worked in Russia. If installed elsewhere it couldn't send the expensive messages. And the idiocy is this: to infect yourself you'd have to change default security settings, install an app from a seedy website, and click yes when the warning came up that says you are giving this app access to your SMS system and that it can send messages that will cost you money. If alarm bells aren't going off by then, when a supposed multimedia app is requesting SMS access, then there just isn't any hope for you.

Well this is the first I've heard of it requiring that much effort (and stupidity) to install it, even after looking up the reported details earlier, but I'll take your word on that. I could have sworn this thing first surfaced in Britain and was nailing British users, but I see you are right about the Russia part. Thanks for elaborating and correcting my mis-perception.

Also, please give some examples of malware that was on the marketplace. I am not aware of any.

No problem.
Fishy Android apps may have been malware, says researcher - Computerworld

EDIT: more on that...
http://www.informationweek.com/news/security/vulnerabilities/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=222300435
http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2010/01/android-malware-fears/

 

[Lifeisabeach]

Good points, but you are arguing with a brick wall I'm afraid. I found the "Ignore" button more effective. Oddly, all I was attempting to state was that while both the iPhone and Android are great in areas, neither are perfect either. That REALLY hisses some folks off I guess.

I've never stated that Android isn't great or doesn't have it's advantages. Quite to the contrary, I believe it is a great for many people, and furthermore I firmly believe that it's good for competition and keeps Apple on their toes. All I've been doing here is elaborating on why I prefer the iPhone. I'm fine with people correcting me on whatever mis-perceptions I may have, but you failed to do so. It's most unfortunate that bothers you so much. It's more unfortunate you apparently are ignoring me and won't even see this.

BTW... it's worth pointing out that there's a REASON I follow the Android platform, and it's not to be argumentative. There have been things and continue to be things that I don't like about the iPhone, and in principle I'd like more flexibility. In practice, the things I do like about the iPhone, in combination with what I don't like about Android, ultimately outweigh what I don't like about the iPhone. Maybe one day it'll change, but I don't see it ever happening, for the many reasons I've outlined here.

 

[dan828]

No problem.
Fishy Android apps may have been malware, says researcher - Computerworld

EDIT: more on that...
About 1% Of Google Android Apps Bad -- InformationWeek
Malware Sneaks Into Android Market | Gadget Lab | Wired.com

Apps "may have been malware", were removed on suspicion of such, and no known security breach happened?

 

[Lifeisabeach]

Apps "may have been malware", were removed on suspicion of such, and no known security breach happened?

Yeah yeah... I know. They can't be more certain because Google made the apps go *poof* after-the-fact. But ask yourself... why is some 3rd party unaffiliated with those credit unions making all those apps to access those accounts in the first place? Answer: to steal financial data. There is no other reason. If there is, I'd love to hear it. And WHY would Google even allow someone to do that? Answer: no oversight... just reactive measures. Those apps "may" not have been successful at getting any financial information for whatever reason, but their mere existence proves they are trying and are successful at getting into the marketplace. If they didn't achieve the intended job this time, perhaps next time they will. It's just a matter of refining the process. Maybe Google will refine their processes and rules also to keep these things out. Maybe they won't. But Apple has had them in place since day 1, though they too are periodically refining their own rules and processes as needed.

 

[dan828]

Yeah yeah... I know. They can't be more certain because Google made the apps go *poof* after-the-fact. But ask yourself... why is some 3rd party unaffiliated with those credit unions making all those apps to access those accounts in the first place? Answer: to steal financial data. There is no other reason. If there is, I'd love to hear it. And WHY would Google even allow someone to do that? Answer: no oversight... just reactive measures. Those apps "may" not have been successful at getting any financial information for whatever reason, but their mere existence proves they are trying and are successful at getting into the marketplace. If they didn't achieve the intended job this time, perhaps next time they will. It's just a matter of refining the process. Maybe Google will refine their processes and rules also to keep these things out. Maybe they won't. But Apple has had them in place since day 1, though they too are periodically refining their own rules and processes as needed.

Speculation as to why was in those articles. Basically, it was probably just someone trying to make $.99 a pop by creating shortcuts on the desktop. But I'll put it like this-- Android is no more subject to malware exploitation than OS X is. Both are *nix derivatives, and both have a security permissions system that don't allow programs access to root functions unless specifically granted those permissions by someone with the credentials to do so. iOS is more secure because the only apps you can install are throughly vetted, but this can take weeks to be done, apps can be rejected for fairly obscure reasons, and some working apps with no real issues can be and have been excluded at Apple's whim. And that whole thing can be circumvented by jailbreaking.

So yeah, you can install third party apps after changing default security options (some phones require a hack similar to jailbreaking to do this), and the marketplace is not subjected to the rigorous vetting process that Apple has in place for iOS devices. But still, no viruses are effecting android, only trojans in Russia, and a handful of apps from a single developer that MAY have had access to something, but probably didn't, and didn't cause any security breaches.

Furthermore, carriers police their devices even further. For example, AT&T doesn't allow 3rd party apps to be installed at all on their android phones (can be gotten around with a hack, more complicated than jailbreaking), and they also block apps on the market that they don't want. New apps take a few days to show up, so I imagine they have a separate database and vet the apps themselves. Now there is a very active hacking community for android devices, so most all of these restrictions can be gotten around, but if you are savvy enough to reflash the os with custom ROMs available from the hacking scene, you should be savvy enough not to get taken in by someone trying to get you to install a trojan. And even at that, only two confirmed trojans, both only functional in Russia, have been reported.

So ultimately, this is all just FUD being spread by people wanting page hits, and anti-android people wanting to badmouth android.

In the words of Steve Jobs, from the "antennagate" press conference:

"Maybe it's human nature -- when you're doing well, people want to tear you down. I see it happening with Google, people trying to tear them down."

Basically, he likened this sort of thing as to what happened to Apple in regards to the antenna issue-- it's an incredibly minor thing of little importance, that is being blown out of proportion by tech blogs for page hits and by fanboys to denigrate Android and Google.

 

[Lifeisabeach]

Speculation as to why was in those articles. Basically, it was probably just someone trying to make $.99 a pop by creating shortcuts on the desktop. But I'll put it like this-- Android is no more subject to malware exploitation than OS X is. Both are *nix derivatives, and both have a security permissions system that don't allow programs access to root functions unless specifically granted those permissions by someone with the credentials to do so. iOS is more secure because the only apps you can install are throughly vetted, but this can take weeks to be done, apps can be rejected for fairly obscure reasons, and some working apps with no real issues can be and have been excluded at Apple's whim. And that whole thing can be circumvented by jailbreaking.

So yeah, you can install third party apps after changing default security options (some phones require a hack similar to jailbreaking to do this), and the marketplace is not subjected to the rigorous vetting process that Apple has in place for iOS devices. But still, no viruses are effecting android, only trojans in Russia, and a handful of apps from a single developer that MAY have had access to something, but probably didn't, and didn't cause any security breaches.

Furthermore, carriers police their devices even further. For example, AT&T doesn't allow 3rd party apps to be installed at all on their android phones (can be gotten around with a hack, more complicated than jailbreaking), and they also block apps on the market that they don't want. New apps take a few days to show up, so I imagine they have a separate database and vet the apps themselves. Now there is a very active hacking community for android devices, so most all of these restrictions can be gotten around, but if you are savvy enough to reflash the os with custom ROMs available from the hacking scene, you should be savvy enough not to get taken in by someone trying to get you to install a trojan. And even at that, only two confirmed trojans, both only functional in Russia, have been reported.

So ultimately, this is all just FUD being spread by people wanting page hits, and anti-android people wanting to badmouth android.

In the words of Steve Jobs, from the "antennagate" press conference:

"Maybe it's human nature -- when you're doing well, people want to tear you down. I see it happening with Google, people trying to tear them down."

Basically, he likened this sort of thing as to what happened to Apple in regards to the antenna issue-- it's an incredibly minor thing of little importance, that is being blown out of proportion by tech blogs for page hits and by fanboys to denigrate Android and Google.

The articles were speculating, but it is just speculation. Ok ok... fair enough. I think I've fallen victim to a lot of FUD myself in this respect, so I appreciate you setting the record straight. I'm still not entirely comfortable still with how Google handles their Marketplace, but it could be because I'm too comfortable with how Apple handles their App Store. I actually feel that, in principle, Apple is overly draconian with their App Store policies. In practice... meh. Do I really need a bobble-head political caricature app? LOL!

 

[dan828]

The articles were speculating, but it is just speculation. Ok ok... fair enough. I think I've fallen victim to a lot of FUD myself in this respect, so I appreciate you setting the record straight. I'm still not entirely comfortable still with how Google handles their Marketplace, but it could be because I'm too comfortable with how Apple handles their App Store. I actually feel that, in principle, Apple is overly draconian with their App Store policies. In practice... meh. Do I really need a bobble-head political caricature app? LOL!

Fair enough. I don't want to come off as an Android fanboy here. I had an iPhone 3G that I gave to my niece when I got my current Android phone, and I have an iPad 3G that I use every day (the reason I was willing to give up the iPhone is because I can still use all my apps on the iPad ). I just wanted to give android a try. I like it, I enjoy the ease of customization, the active hacking community, and the fantastic integration with Google's online services. I think Apple does syncing and backup a heck of a lot better than Google does right now though.

 

[the8thark]

. . . So yeah, you can install third party apps after changing default security options (some phones require a hack similar to jailbreaking to do this) . . .

. . . Furthermore, carriers police their devices even further. For example, AT&T doesn't allow 3rd party apps to be installed at all on their android phones (can be gotten around with a hack, more complicated than jailbreaking), and they also block apps on the market that they don't want.

So what's the difference between Apple blocking iOS apps or carriers blocking Android apps? Both can be bypassed with phone hacks. And hacking both OS's opens them up to the same security and other issues cause they are both *nix OS's. SO really I don't see much if any at all difference here.

 

[dan828]

So what's the difference between Apple blocking iOS apps or carriers blocking Android apps? Both can be bypassed with phone hacks. And hacking both OS's opens them up to the same security and other issues cause they are both *nix OS's. SO really I don't see much if any at all difference here.

I wasn't suggesting a difference, I was comparing the two to show that the supposed security issue with Android was overblown.

 

[the8thark]

I wasn't suggesting a difference, I was comparing the two to show that the supposed security issue with Android was overblown.

Agreed 100%. Mind you the lack of a tough process to get apps into the android store would be a little more risky security wise. That's if the carriers are not blocking this.

 

[Lifeisabeach]

Fair enough. I don't want to come off as an Android fanboy here. I had an iPhone 3G that I gave to my niece when I got my current Android phone, and I have an iPad 3G that I use every day (the reason I was willing to give up the iPhone is because I can still use all my apps on the iPad ). I just wanted to give android a try. I like it, I enjoy the ease of customization, the active hacking community, and the fantastic integration with Google's online services. I think Apple does syncing and backup a heck of a lot better than Google does right now though.

I'm totally an iPhone fanboy, though I'm not blind to its shortcomings. I really was hoping to see a lot more (I dunno what I'm trying to say here… consistency? standardization? *shrug*) of the Android platform than I have, but the manufacturers and carriers seem to be increasingly tearing it apart with all the device fragmentation, even within the same manufacturers. Choice is good in principle, but too much choice is chaotic. I'd really like to see someone take it and nurture a model line the way Apple has and build a real ecosystem slowly, carefully, and intelligently, and give 3rd parties a reason to make products to support it. You'll never pry the iPhone from my wife because she just absolutely loves being able to use the iPod controls on her radio; playing it at night in her speaker dock; the pleasant look of the device and the case she uses. Nevermind the sheer simplicity of using it. Same goes for me, and I just don't see anyone else having the patience and foresight to do what Apple has done. I really don't think anyone else "gets" it. Android may well be highly functional in many ways that I would like (heck, I know it is), but switching to one is a 2 year commitment, and when I look at what I see now with iOS and Android, where they are headed, and what my needs/wants are, Android just isn't cutting it.

 

[alexsd123]

Google loses control over Android
Bing is being used on Verizon's Samsung’s S Galaxy. Wow...

 

[bargsbeer]

Google loses control over Android
Bing is being used on Verizon's Samsung’s S Galaxy. Wow...

I think this is more of a desperate attempt on Samsung's part, If anyone here has ever used TouchWiz you know what I'm talking about, Thous far Samsung Android phones have been crap. I seriously doubt HTC would do this.

 

[baggss]

That was an interesting read.

Frankly, this thread is getting silly, but that's just my opinion...

 

[XJ-linux]

That was an interesting read.

Frankly, this thread is getting silly, but that's just my opinion...

A real genuine Apple Rumor, huh?

 

[baggss]

A real genuine Apple Rumor, huh?

Not really, then again this whole thread has nothing to do with Apple or the iPhone directly so what the heck.

I find it interesting that people are even surprised that the cell companies are doing this. They've been doing it for years. AT&T and the iPhone are the exception and for some reason everyone seemed to forget that the cell companies are in the middle of this transaction. Google is just another OS maker like all the others. Same story, newer phones.

 

[dan828]

I think this is more of a desperate attempt on Samsung's part, If anyone here has ever used TouchWiz you know what I'm talking about, Thous far Samsung Android phones have been crap. I seriously doubt HTC would do this.

Not samsung, it is Verizon that insisted on Bing-- they made a deal with MS to do this and got a big check from MS. Android is an open platform, so manufactures and carriers can do what they want, to suggest google lost control isn't right, they never had that level of control. That's the thing about OSS, people can take it and do most anything they want with it.

And getting rid of touchwiz (and 3.0 isn't bad anyways), is as simple as downloading one of the many excellent free home screen replacement apps from the market. It's no more difficult to replace than is changing the wallpaper on your desktop. Or you could go over to the xda forums and find whole new custom roms, with all the carrier customizations removed and new features added. The hacking community is very lively with android, so even if the carrier wants to gum up the phone with bloatware and try and force you to use a certain search engine, it's pretty easy to get rid of their crap and do what you want.