XP Blues

[xstep]

Right now i'm much more worried about those security updates on OSX comming so quickly i couldn't install them fast enough.

I'm glad to see those security updates. It means Apple is doing something about them and that the crackers have less opportunity to get into a Mac system.

 

[MadRhino23]

Hmm, my girlfriends grandfather got a PC not so long ago, bundled with Norton firewall and Norton anti virus. A few months later he was having a lot of problems and asked if i could have a look at it. He is on the internet at the most a half hour a week and the thing had 30 viruses and 5 spyware programs in it. So i did a re-install, maybe a monthly occurrence. :dive:

Sounds like Grandpa found a few 'HAPPY SITES!'

 

[GLJones]

I stand by my statement above.

My Masters in CS statement was not to be takes seriously. The most computer-able people I know are still in High School and are self-taught.

The point is...the average user of a computer does the following things...

e-mail
Web
calendar
photos
music (iTunes?)
Office (Word, Excel, PowerPoint)

That's about it. Myself, and most of the people that hang in a forum like this do FAR more. We are above-average users. Many of us can install software, virus protection and defrag our hard drives without thinking about it. The average user calls a buddy that is computer savvy when they have problems.

Look at the list above...their computer IS an appliance. It does a few simple things well. Hard Core gamers know how to maintain their systems as they like to tweak it for top performance. They are also self-taught, for the most part.

Looking at the list above, which system, Mac or PC, does what the average user needs better? I think it's hands down Mac. Web and e-mail are huge security issues due to spyware and viruses. Not a problem on the Mac. PC...become a virus and spyware software expert or you will have problems. Photos and Music....simple on the Mac. You can get iTunes on the PC but noting comes close to the simplicity of iPhoto. Neither will work well when your PC is infested with spyware and viruses.

Windows is not the horrible OS it was several years ago. XP is a nice improvement. The overall problem with Windows is SECURITY. MS has never taken it seriously. They patch things and offer lip service but they need an overall change in their security model to preven these problems. Hopefully, Vista will make the needed changes and clean up the code so it's less clunky.

Not that OS X is perfect. It's not. But, it is WAY ahead of Windows and it's built on a very proven security model. Not one OS X virus in the wild has been successful. It's not numbers, it's called UNIX security.

 

[timswim78]

I do not agree that we can call computers appliances. An appliance is something that is designed to do one specific task, such as: wash clothes, toast bread, heat up food, dry hair, and etc. If something does all of the things that are listed below, I opine that it is much more than an appliance.
e-mail
Web
calendar
photos
music (iTunes?)
Office (Word, Excel, PowerPoint)

With regard to the listed topics, I don't see how you a person can say that an OS X machine does these things better than a Windows XP machine. In most cases, they'll be using similar versions of the same software. For example, the head design guy at work claims that Mac's are better for graphics and for Web stuff. However, I have the same software loaded on my PowerMac and my Dell at work, and I don't really think that either one does anything much differently or better than the other. (Although the Windows machine does have the advantage of having a nice set of options appear when I right-click the mouse).

Perhaps an exception to this is the general-user photo software. Many OS X users choose to use iPhoto, and many PC users choose to use Picassa.

Anyway, I have digressed from the point of this thread. My point is that I think that we can all agree that unsecured Windows machines are more susceptible to malware than are OS X machines. However, if a Windows computer is initially setup well and set to autoupdate its security software, it should run just fine. If this is done, I believe that they will run just fine in most cases.

So, yes it does take a little more to initially setup and secure a Windows machine, but MS is getting better about security and these issues are becoming less complicated.

 

[PowerBookG4]

I think if all the mac engineers went over to work with microsoft, too their idea's with them, started over on the operating system, combining mac ideas, and windows ideas, and came up with one operating system built on unix that would be the operating system to change the world, apple ideas and security, microsoft dominance over marketshare.. and all that money would not hurt in the development of this utopian operating system.

 

[tk26]

Hey guys I would just like to say that this is a great thread and I have learnt alot about my computer. I am getting a Gateway desktop with XP because the PowerMac G5 as great as it is, just costs too much for what I'm going to use it for, it's also overkill. We are planning on getting a new Macbook Pro 15.4" because this seems to be a great laptop and also very powerful but we are going to wait until the summer. I am going to use your guys tips and hopefully everything will work out for this PC, does anyone know where the link for the MS-antispyware. Are there any other programs that I should get in order to better protect my computer? I have another question is it true that Firefox is safer to use and offers more protection than Internet Explorer. Are there any other changes that I should make from the normal programs?

 

[ByzantineRemnant]

Well, you all are definetly arguing the XP-OSX debate. Id like to touch on something I saw brought up that just isnt accurate. iPods are actually a much better deal than their competititors, have any of you ever looked at the prices for a creative labs mp3 player? You get about 1/2 the storage for %20 less in price, that is not a good deal in my opinion. Also, I am curious to this notion that PC's are much cheaper. I recently tried to build a comporable Computer to the iMac on Dell's site, and the end result was not as feature robust, and cost more. Not to mention the need for additional anti virus software, and the form factor. Plus, the whole process on their website is incredibly tedious. I encourage anyone to attempt to build something that can compete with the "20 iMac on Dell's site, you'll see that I speak the truth. I chose Dell for they are the largest PC manufacturer, and they offer a student discount(which sucks btw).
Apple is a well run company, and increasing its profits every year for a reason. They can strike a chord with customers who are just open minded enough to try it. I took the plunge, a $1000 gamble on an iBook over a year ago, and I have not looked back. Every time I get back on Windows, I am reminded why I think OSX is better. Its easier, I am far more productive on my Mac then I ever was on my PC. Ultimately this is going to be a biased debate, for we are on MAC FORUMS. That being said however, I think its nice to have some diversity in our members and some different thoughts. One last thing, the reason why Apple doesnt have the same problems as Windows with spyware or viruses is the fact that they have a 3% market share. If Apple Controlled 95% of the market, I dont imagine they'd be in different shape. I like being in a smaller group of users, I dont mind that more users dont come to the fold. Apple doesnt need to get huge like M$, as long as they stay profitable, they will be around. The end.

 

[ByzantineRemnant]

Firefox is much better than IE. Have you looked at the iMac? It can suit pretty much any processing need you have, and its much less than a Power Mac.

 

[timswim78]

Hey guys I would just like to say that this is a great thread and I have learnt alot about my computer. I am getting a Gateway desktop with XP because the PowerMac G5 as great as it is, just costs too much for what I'm going to use it for, it's also overkill. We are planning on getting a new Macbook Pro 15.4" because this seems to be a great laptop and also very powerful but we are going to wait until the summer. I am going to use your guys tips and hopefully everything will work out for this PC, does anyone know where the link for the MS-antispyware. Are there any other programs that I should get in order to better protect my computer? I have another question is it true that Firefox is safer to use and offers more protection than Internet Explorer. Are there any other changes that I should make from the normal programs?

MS Antispyware:
http://www.microsoft.com/athome/security/spyware/software/default.mspx

MS Onecare:
http://www.windowsonecare.com/

More than you ever wanted to know about securing a Windows PC.
http://forums.anandtech.com/messageview.aspx?catid=33&threadid=1658987&enterthread=y

 

[Ex_PC_Puke]

Wow --- All I was doing was pissing and moaning about dealing with XP on average Joes / Janes PCs

And thats the key here ---- AVERAGE -- many still are not totally clear on RAM versus Hard Drive .... "both store programs !!!" is a common comment. Many (most) don't understand the need to even have SP2 on their systems let alone the weekly barrage of updates for XP or spyware ect. Many are still on phone lines neye:

As to system rebuilds ...... "I thought my Dell CDs were in the desk ... I can't find them"

Most of these folks have no interest in knowing this stuff -- but certainly like to have a fairly reliable computer in the house for email - wordprocessing - etc. When it comes to viruses - some are just lucky - some are not - some are just destined ....

And I agree (as do reviews by PC World, PCMag, etc.) that Norton is a virus onto it self .... but when some of your customers insist "my brother-in law told me it is the best - or I've been using it since 1999" ---- all you can do is sigh.

Currrently my preferred choice is Mcafee and Spy Sweeper -- but it looks like Panda has some pretty good stuff.


Overall Topshot has the most correct view of the realities of XP and PCs in the homes of "normal" people. Also his views around the "iPod" scenario are true and spot on as well --- as an ex-techno-guy at Intel I tried many MP3 players --- interesting, convienient, but generally a hassle ------- when I picked up an iShuffle and started using iTunes ..... I "got" the whole iPod craze in one swift moment.

And yes a PC / computer / Mac should be just an appliance as far as ease-of-use, reliability, security.

And keep in mind I've sat thru many mind-less meetings with Intel and Microsoft planning - plotting - hoping for ----- a product (i.e. PC + gadget or service) that "just works" (those words were constantly repeated at Intel during my last 3yrs). And in fact I sat in on and helped created the early demos and focus points that evolved into Intels new Viiv program .... things just work (hopefully).

However, my knowledge of Microsoft does not give me great hope (for them) as they just tend to make things too complex .... = fragile. On the flipside all of the standards (for HW - SW - Wireless) developed for Viiv should play into Apples benefit should they choose to use them.

For me its back to XP and learning the best products and practices to make XP + PC useable by average Joes / Janes who live NORMAL lives and don't post on computer forums

And now my biz ad is officially in the 06 phone book -- there is no turning back now --- thanks for all your comments :spook:

 

[Ex_PC_Puke]

Well, you all are definetly arguing the XP-OSX debate. Id like to touch on something I saw brought up that just isnt accurate. iPods are actually a much better deal than their competititors, have any of you ever looked at the prices for a creative labs mp3 player? You get about 1/2 the storage for %20 less in price, that is not a good deal in my opinion. Also, I am curious to this notion that PC's are much cheaper. I recently tried to build a comporable Computer to the iMac on Dell's site, and the end result was not as feature robust, and cost more. Not to mention the need for additional anti virus software, and the form factor. Plus, the whole process on their website is incredibly tedious. I encourage anyone to attempt to build something that can compete with the "20 iMac on Dell's site, you'll see that I speak the truth. I chose Dell for they are the largest PC manufacturer, and they offer a student discount(which sucks btw).
Apple is a well run company, and increasing its profits every year for a reason. They can strike a chord with customers who are just open minded enough to try it. I took the plunge, a $1000 gamble on an iBook over a year ago, and I have not looked back. Every time I get back on Windows, I am reminded why I think OSX is better. Its easier, I am far more productive on my Mac then I ever was on my PC. Ultimately this is going to be a biased debate, for we are on MAC FORUMS. That being said however, I think its nice to have some diversity in our members and some different thoughts. One last thing, the reason why Apple doesnt have the same problems as Windows with spyware or viruses is the fact that they have a 3% market share. If Apple Controlled 95% of the market, I dont imagine they'd be in different shape. I like being in a smaller group of users, I dont mind that more users dont come to the fold. Apple doesnt need to get huge like M$, as long as they stay profitable, they will be around. The end.

Your observations are quite correct on both the iPod and the PC. As Topshot indicated many folks buy a couple MP3 players (hassle - hassle) before they move to the iPod and -- it just works. In fact my wife (an ex-IT person from Intel) watched me try MP3 players for years (as part of my job) and was not impressed. After I had my iShuffle she bought one in 2 days and is constant user.

As to PCs --- keep in mind that DELL / HP ect. can build them so cheap because they are buying parts at 30% to 90% cheaper than you can PLUS they get XP for around $70 AND they get money to load all that crap software onto the HD.

Apple is able to get close to the same pricing on most parts BUT since Apple builds "style" and User Ergonomics into the their products (versus building beige boxes) they incur some cost there. This is part of the reason Apples cost a bit more - plus thank god they don't bundle a ton-o-crap SW on their boxes.

But as you point out the user must pay yearly "protection" money and daily sacrifice CPU cycles to run the "protection" software.

So in the end the cost delta is not all that great between a PC and a Mac

 

[tk26]

Yes I considered getting an iMac but the problem is that I dont like the idea of the screen and computer components being together, because if something hapens to the screen then I cannot use the computer because of the screen. I have decided to get a Macbook Pro because although there not as powerful as the PowerMac G5's it's still a very powerful machine and I get the portability of a laptop.

I would agree that ipods are much better than anyother mp3 player, in addition to being so simple and easy to use their customer service is great. The screen on my nano broke and within 2 weeks I had a new ipod nano free of charge.

 

[baggss]

I do not agree that we can call computers appliances.

It doesn't matter what WE think. What matters is the fact that the average user is beginning to view their PC as an appliance. You spoke of the best PC experts you know, high-school kids. These are kids who are growing up expecting to have a PC, it's not a novelty any more than the Microwave or TV. To them it is just part of life. We are at the point where the computer is starting to cease to be a novelty and enter the realm of appliance. As such, people will expect them to just work.

 

[ByzantineRemnant]

^Are you aware that the laptop "screen" and "components" are connected as well, just like on the iMac? Essentially what it is with the new intel iMac and the MacBook Pro, is the same basic components in each, yet moderately superior in the iMac. More HD space, faster Processor, cheaper AppleCare, cheaper ram, better DVD burner, etc. The main difference is obviously portability and price. I looked at purchasing one or the other myself, and I ultimately chose the iMac. I will keep my iBook for any on the go needs I have, and I can have a very powerful, and affordable computer at home, with a 20" screen. When similarlly equipped, the iMac is roughly 30% cheaper, which is to hard for me not to ignore. The 20" iMac weighs in a little over 20lbs, which isnt that heavy at all, and is somewhat portable as well. I think this is a logical choice for me, or for anyone really, but to each his own. I am just happy that you are purchasing a Mac, there is no equal.

 

[PowerBookG4]

And thats the key here ---- AVERAGE -- many still are not totally clear on RAM versus Hard Drive .... "both store programs !!!" is a common comment. Many (most) don't understand the need to even have SP2 on their systems let alone the weekly barrage of updates for XP or spyware ect. Many are still on phone lines neye:

not only that but there is this old g4 that nobody uses in the tv studio at my high school.. everybody uses the newer faster computer systems, and this one kid always uses it because its the closest to the stairs.. and its a straight walk.. Every day he tells me that they need to add more hard drives to the computer to make it faster, and I tell him that the ammount of space does has like .0001% (if any.. but you can't rule it out completly)to do with speed, and that the computer is really slow because its got a 750mhz processor in it.. I tell him to use the dual processor machines but he thinks they are all equal and that the only thing slowing down the old machine is the hard drive space, just another thing that average users confuse with computer speed. hard drive space.

 

[timswim78]

It doesn't matter what WE think. What matters is the fact that the average user is beginning to view their PC as an appliance. You spoke of the best PC experts you know, high-school kids. These are kids who are growing up expecting to have a PC, it's not a novelty any more than the Microwave or TV. To them it is just part of life. We are at the point where the computer is starting to cease to be a novelty and enter the realm of appliance. As such, people will expect them to just work.

It's not an opinion. An appliance is a device that is designed to do one thing. If you don't believe me, you can look up the definition of "device" in a dictionary. A blackberry is a device, it is designed to do one thing, send email. A computer is not a device if you expect it to do several things.

Also, when did I mention high-school kids as being PC experts? I don't remember doing that.

 

[baggss]

It's not an opinion. An appliance is a device that is designed to do one thing. If you don't believe me, you can look up the definition of "device" in a dictionary. A blackberry is a device, it is designed to do one thing, send email. A computer is not a device if you expect it to do several things.

Also, when did I mention high-school kids as being PC experts? I don't remember doing that.

Sorry, got your post mixed up with the one GLJones made.

The point still stands. Definitions can change, and appliance is just as good of a word as any. Call it what you want, appliance, device, hat, pen, keyboard, I don't care. The official definition may mean one thing, but that is how people are starting to view computers, the novelty is wearing off. People expect things to work when they buy them, and computers are going to keep moving in that direction, they need to keep moving in that direction. The average consumer is not getting more computer savvy, they are getting more fed up. The fact that even MS keeps on trying to make things simpler and easier for the end user simply adds credence to the argument.

 

[timswim78]

Sorry, got your post mixed up with the one GLJones made.

The point still stands. Definitions can change, and appliance is just as good of a word as any. Call it what you want, appliance, device, hat, pen, keyboard, I don't care. The official definition may mean one thing, but that is how people are starting to view computers, the novelty is wearing off. People expect things to work when they buy them, and computers are going to keep moving in that direction, they need to keep moving in that direction. The average consumer is not getting more computer savvy, they are getting more fed up. The fact that even MS keeps on trying to make things simpler and easier for the end user simply adds credence to the argument.

You're right, computers are becoming simpler to use, as they should be.

However, this thread is becoming a bit tiresome. I think that there are some good issues to debate here, but they are really getting jumbled up. Perhaps, we can have some specific threads to talk about the specific issues in the thread. It has been fun discussing and debating with you guys!

Just some ideas for discussions/debates:
- It is good or bad that computers are becoming more ubiquitous? What should we expect computers to do, and where do we want to have computers?
- If we take security out of the picture (and some could argue that Windows Vista will equalize or come close to equalizing the security issue), what are the advantages of the different OS's?
- Is Apple's model of strictly controlled hardware options a plus or a minus for computer users?
- What can you do with an Apple that you can't do with a Windows computer, and what can be done with a Windows computer that can't be done on an Apple?