Republican V. Democrat

[bargsbeer]

wow, this debate is veering towards the right

I wouldn't call Obama a socialist by any stretch of the imagination

Does he believe in nationalising major US industries?
Is he going to create a national free health care system?
Is he going to create a nationwide government owned public transport system?
Is he going to make higher education free to all

That is what I would expect a socialist to do, Obama is certainly a liberal, but no socialist

What POwerbookG4 said about balancing budgets was sensible IMO. As a more wealthy citizen, I do accept the fact that I pay more tax than some, and a lot goes on the feckless poor (not all poor people are feckless - just some), but the alternative is an increasingly violent society

Socialist may have been a bit harsh.... I don't feel it's the goverments job to give handouts to the under belly of society. It's certainly not the governments job to take care of you.

 

[PapaNoHair]

So after reading the link... excuse me if i'm just being ignorant, but I don't see how its fair when somebody has worked really hard, likely going to school for many years and because of it has climbed the latter and made a lot of money somehow is now responsible to pay almost a million dollars more in taxes while the people who didn't get there get money back. Isn't that like punishing the people for making it?

I think a good tax plan would be don't give any money back, stop spending all the money, and don't charge people who are in the military taxes (or do they already do that).

Or why not increase tax on EVERYBODY wait for the deficits to become surplus to cut taxes down to a level where you can maintain the surplus as a surplus.

Well put! (except for the last sentence - I don't trust any of them to drop it in the future).

 

[Kash]

To an extent, I agree. Prior to Social Security, a good portion of senior citizens lived a life of poverty. Also, children are the largest group of Americans living in poverty. So it's morally reprehensible for this country to not take care of those who can't take care of themselves.

Also, welfare was supposed to be a stopgap for people who were experiencing a rough patch in their lives and it was supposed to give them temporary support till they got back on their feet. It's much more abused now by lazy people who don't want to work. Thus, we don't need to get rid of welfare, but we need to reform it so that we can get rid of the bottomfeeders.

 

[jah]

the mail in ballots will go out in the next 30days or so.

i may or may not like a tax increase but defitnitlty would like to see the money spent for Americans, not for some stupid war.

 

[schweb]

So after reading the link... excuse me if i'm just being ignorant, but I don't see how its fair when somebody has worked really hard, likely going to school for many years and because of it has climbed the latter and made a lot of money somehow is now responsible to pay almost a million dollars more in taxes while the people who didn't get there get money back. Isn't that like punishing the people for making it?

Because there's such a thing as moral and social responsibility and just because you had the opportunity to go to a big school or use family connections to get ahead, doesn't mean everyone else has the same opportunity.

In the end, there is just the right thing to do.

You'll have to excuse me if I don't feel sorry for the guy paying extra income tax while he drives around in his jag heading to his jet for his vacation at his keys beach house while someone else struggles just to feed their family.

Your statement above, in my opinion, typifies the greed so prevalent in American society. It's always so disheartening to see how people can actually think that way.

 

[schweb]

It's certainly not the governments job to take care of you.

So if the government's job isn't to protect, support, and serve society, what is its purpose?

 

[PowerBookG4]

Because there's such a thing as moral and social responsibility and just because you had the opportunity to go to a big school or use family connections to get ahead, doesn't mean everyone else has the same opportunity.

In the end, there is just the right thing to do.

You'll have to excuse me if I don't feel sorry for the guy paying extra income tax while he drives around in his jag heading to his jet for his vacation at his keys beach house while someone else struggles just to feed their family.

Your statement above, in my opinion, typifies the greed so prevalent in American society. It's always so disheartening to see how people can actually think that way.

I mean if thats the way it actually is. I know people (my dad actually) who falls in that higher bracket. The government takes his money in the form of taxes before he pays the people who work for him. Then he pays the people he works for, pays their benefits, etc, etc. When he's done he doesn't pull away in a jag and go to a private jet, he drives a ford mustang, nothing special its like 1/4th of the price of a jag.. The house we live in hasn't been remodeled since the 1970s (at all), the floor in the kitchen is being held together by paintes tape in some locations, the bathroom is falling apart and if I take a shower and our dishwasher turns on... on the other side of the house... i get burned. The people "at the top" are generally not there, but they run small business where the actual take home of the person isn't as much as people think it is.

IT isn't fair that these people who make a certain amount of money have to pay more or a percetage of their income simply because they make more. Its not fair that the unemployed person on wellfair who isn't looking for a job and just sits around all day.. suddenly their kid falls out side and breaks his arm but now the government has to pay for it, while at the same time my mom had cancer last year and insurance wouldn't pay the whole thing and my dad didn't have enough money to pay the rest... but if the goverment only took the same percentage from my father as the person from the example above, my dad may have been able to pay for it.. I might also live in a house that isn't falling appart.

Yeah I know you probably see my setup the set up thread but my dad didn't give that to me.. I worked hard for it doing as many weddings as possible so that I could have a quality set up for my school work (film major)

Everyday I hear about how we don't have money... yet the goverment thinks we do so my dad pays more...

 

[schweb]

The word "fair" is very subjective.

And while you may think every poor person on welfare "isn't look for a job" and "just sits around all day", those statements just demonstrate a complete lack of understanding the situation as it's simply not the case.

Honestly, you'll be much more understanding if you try to step outside the prism of your own experience as difficult as that is (for anyone honestly rich and poor) and try to understand the other side from their perspective.

But in today's society in America, it's very much not about the whole, it's about the individual and the "what's in it for me". In the long run, that's the wrong way to think of it and history has proven again and again that that type of thinking ends up failing society as a whole.

For the record, at least you have a house, at least you can go to college, at least you have had many opportunities that others haven't even had the option of having. So for as bad off as you think you are, I can promise you, you really shouldn't feel sorry for your experiences if you truly were to compare yourself to the poor.

There are countless homeless who can't afford a house, elderly who can't afford medicine or food, or children who can't even get shoes to wear for school. Those are the people that I think we need to worry about. I'm sorry, but just because someone who makes 250,000 a year has to pay more taxes just doesn't seem "unfair" to me when you compare it to those truly in need.

 

[bargsbeer]

So if the government's job isn't to protect, support, and serve society, what is its purpose?

Everyone makes there own destiny. Some people are more fortunate than others, Too many people use that as an excuse fail. Did you ever think how they became more fortunate ? Maybe it's because they chose to be fiscally responsible with there money,Got an education and worked hard to buy that Jag and to fly their G5 cross country.

You'll have to excuse me if I don't feel sorry for the people who chose not to get an education and improve the quality of their lives.
If the middle class had pay the same percentage of taxes that the top earners in this country pay,There would be riots in the streets.

 

[schweb]

Everyone makes there own destiny. Some people are more fortunate than others, Too many people use that as an excuse fail. Did you ever think how they became more fortunate ? Maybe it's because they chose to be fiscally responsible with there money,Got an education and worked hard to buy that Jag and to fly their G5 cross country.

Love the over generalization and painting everyone less fortunate with such a broad brush.

If only all the poor lazy people had your work ethic, American streets would be paved with gold.

But in all seriousness, you statements just clearly show your lack of understanding the true mechanics of poverty in the US.

 

[bargsbeer]

Love the over generalization and painting everyone less fortunate with such a broad brush.

If only all the poor lazy people had your work ethic, American streets would be paved with gold.

But in all seriousness, you statements just clearly show your lack of understanding the true mechanics of poverty in the US.

I don't feel people are helpless... If you want to be successful in this country anyone can do it. One of the biggest problems in America is the lack of personal responsibility and accountability for ones own actions. Everyone makes choices we all know right from wrong.... I think it's fair to say these are subjects that we will have to agree to disagree.A political debate where we can express our views and opinions while still being civil is always entertaining.

 

[KeithTeeple]

Obama wants out or Iraq, McCain wants to stay in. Obama wants lower taxes McCain wants higher. But there is one thing both of them agree on - the climate. Although I still think Obama would do a better job as President from hearing his policies. I do respect McCain for serving as a Marine in Vietnam and he had bones broken.

I lean towards Obama and don't plan on differing.

 

[bargsbeer]

Obama wants out or Iraq, McCain wants to stay in. Obama wants lower taxes McCain wants higher. But there is one thing both of them agree on - the climate. Although I still think Obama would do a better job as President from hearing his policies. I do respect McCain for serving as a Marine in Vietnam and he had bones broken.

I lean towards Obama and don't plan on differing.

Obama is not going to pull out of Iraq any faster than McCain.Obama knows it would be mistake to pull out to soon. As for Taxes Obama is going to raise taxes on anyone making 250K or more per year.Lower taxes on the middle class.

 

[Kash]

Obama wants out or Iraq, McCain wants to stay in. Obama wants lower taxes McCain wants higher. But there is one thing both of them agree on - the climate. Although I still think Obama would do a better job as President from hearing his policies. I do respect McCain for serving as a Marine in Vietnam and he had bones broken.

He wasn't a Marine, he was in the Navy. His son is a Marine.

Obama is not going to pull out of Iraq any faster than McCain.Obama knows it would be mistake to pull out to soon. As for Taxes Obama is going to raise taxes on anyone making 250K or more per year.Lower taxes on the middle class.

It's actually over $600,000. Anybody making less than that could safely be assumed to be in the middle class.

 

[macgig]

one thing I have to mention.

ALL politicians are looking out for #1, themselves... not the american people. That is very clear. Sad but a fact.

November is OUR time to speak up... and be heard... if you don't like the way things are being done, vote. Get new people in office. At all levels. Local, state, federal.

 

[bargsbeer]

one thing I have to mention.

ALL politicians are looking out for #1, themselves... not the american people. That is very clear. Sad but a fact.

November is OUR time to speak up... and be heard... if you don't like the way things are being done, vote. Get new people in office. At all levels. Local, state, federal.

Very well put and 100% true.

 

[louishen]

lets keep this debate polite and respectful, when I last checked the rep system is not there to punish people who's opinions you don't agree with

Giving negative reputation because you don't agree with what was said is not an appropraite use of the reputation system. People are entitled to their own opinions, and just because you don't agree doesn't mean the user was wrong or not contributing to the conversation.

http://www.mac-forums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=68770

 

[Waterpolo820]

lets keep this debate polite and respectful, when I last checked the rep system is not there to punish people who's opinions you don't agree with



http://www.mac-forums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=68770

+1.

*cough* Baggss *cough*

 

[philipma1957]

The problem is D. vs R. has become left vs right and there is no room for a middle of the road bipartisan movement. I like the death penalty some of the time (righty guntoter) . I like real medicine available to all of us (lefty socialist) No one push fighting against people that really don't like us (rep)and at the same time having good medicine (dem). the two party system is now like good cop bad cop. working over the middle class

 

[the8thark]

Well good cop or bad cop. At least it's a cop. Unlike some dictatorship (Sadam, Mugabe, Mao etc) where it's do what your told or you die. Too much bickering and nothing gets done. Nothing bad as well.