Mac Pro 8 core, to buy or not to buy help

[tobywuk]

one simple comment you made makes one simple answer. you want to play games, so you want a PC.

 

[Tanner31593]

Thank you for pointing out my grammar, I do apologise, I use a HTC handheld, I should be aware of my grammar. I am sorry if some Mac user will not respond to my question due to poor grammar, reminds me of my old professor "oh my god heaven forbid" I think all replies were helpful. When you go and spend $7,500 on a computer you want to learn as much as you can before purchase. The PciE and GPU are very important to me as I play hardcore games, I am truly sorry about that. I'm 35 own my own company have 45 employees, clients who are well known to you all, a great family and 3 cars that would make you drool, who am I?? who cares, but even if I have
enough spare change in my Ashtray to buy a Mac pro I would still answer anyone's questions bad grammar or not. Everyone deserves respect even if they cant spell. Blah blllaaaa blaa. So anyway thank you so much for your
replies they truly have been helpful, I will continue to post here (from a gamers point of view) and will hopefully be able to add some value to this forum regarding game performance on the MAc pro, some won't care but others like me will. Hmm I think my tag will be Mac Gamer lol. Lurgen thank you for the info and help its people like you that I choose to be on my
team because you stand out from the rest and really help others and are not biased because they spell bad, I am sure away from this post you would be an awesome buddy. Thank you and I will continue reading this thread and posting in others and hopefully I can provide help like you did for someone like me with impossible questions and bad grammar. ;D

You and me both. I'm working on my grammar, but i'm still struggling. I think it has gotten better but I don't know.
As you post more on the forums your grammar will get better, and if it doesn't i'll let you know because i'm in the same boat. You'll find that when you look back on your old posts you will laugh at your own mistakes.
I had horrible sentence structure, and I still do, but for me personally I think it's because I try to type things in the same way I would SAY them in person. When I say something in my head while i'm typing it out, if i pause in my head, I usually put a comma in the same place lol. And I had a lot of "broken" posts,
like this,
which yeah,
kinda, um,
would get a little annoying,
for anyone who reads them,
which makes sense.
LOL. But i'm working on it. I also make everything VERY long, if you haven't noticed. I can't keep it short and sweet and to the point, I don't know why.

Anyway, you'll get better at it if you want to. I'll be reading your stuff because I know how it feels, it's hard to tell if you are getting better at it without someone else telling you.

Good luck!

 

[CoG888]

I think the best machine for the OP is a Mac Pro. True, the Mac Pro is not marketed as a gaming machine, but nothing is stopping you from turning it into one. You show interest in using OSX and playing games: Install Vista on the Mac using Bootcamp, VMWare, or Parallels, and you accomplish both goals. A 2.8ghz 8-way machine, with 4GB RAM, and an 8800GT will be a screaming fast gaming rig, whether made by Apple or any PC maker.

Your only sacrifices with the Mac Pro is video card upgrade-ability and support for SLI/Xfire. I expect the 8800GT will run modern games for at least the next two years ("gamers" that upgrade more often then that do so for the status of owning the latest and greatest, not because their older cards are obsolete). I doubt that SLI/Xfire support is going to be a deal breaker in your case.

So, in conclusion, buy a Mac Pro.

As for grammar and spelling, make it a habit to always preview your posts and proofread for spelling, sentence structure, and composition. Your grade school English teacher taught you how to write a first draft and make revisions. It is a useful skill that should be carried into your online life, unless you are truly a "gamer." In that case, i pwn ur l33ts, or whatever.

 

[the8thark]

To the OP.

The Mac Pro as stated above many times can be tweaked to be a pretty decent gaming machine. But it will excel in all the secondary tasks you want to use it for. So for those times you are not playing games the Pro would be your best bet.

And some sources claim the pro runs XP/Vista better then the PC counterparts. So I would really look out there to see if you can get an ace graphics card in a PC that is noticeably better than the Mac Pro's one. If you can't then there's no reason to get the PC. Well price is an issue. But since you are talking Pros I'm assuming you are ok with paying that price.

 

[Mathiau]

one simple comment you made makes one simple answer. you want to play games, so you want a PC.

No it isnt that simple now that Mac's can run windows... if it couldnt it would be, but it no longer isnt, more so since you can get an 8800GT for the mac systems.

 

[brucealeg]

What's the deal with the video card? Is it something like poor MAC OS X driver support, if you were to add a new card? If I want development and gaming, whats stopping me from keeping the ATI 2600 and using it in Mac OS X. Then getting a 8800 Ultra and only using it in Windows mode?

This is just a driver equation right? I can hook both cards to my monitor ( i have dual inputs ) and just use the input for the OS I am booting into.

An 8 core Mac Pro is MUCH cheaper then an Alienware 4 core system, so I can see people wanting to use it for gaming.

 

[Zoolook]

My 2 cents.

If you're primary goal is gaming, don't buy a Mac. It doesn't matter that it'a essentially a PC with a differnt coat on - you simply don't need an 8-core machine to play the best games, you need the best GFX card you can afford and you need SLI, and current Macs don't do this as well as you could do it if you built your own. Get a Core 2 Duo machine with a nVidia SLI Setup - games barely get any benefit from anything more that 2 cores (4 at most) and by the time they do, that GFX card will be 3 years out of date anyway. Most of the latest games are GPU restrained, not CPU.

If you really WANT a Mac... I would spend $600 less on a PC than you were planning to spend on the Mac Pro, and hook in a Mac Mini into the screen to try out OS X.

 

[brucealeg]

What I don't get is, if the Mac OS supports the 8800gt - why were the previous Mac Pro users unable to upgrade to a 8800GT to lengthen the life if their machines?

It's cards - slots and drivers. What am I missing?

 

[mac2maverick]

What I don't get is, if the Mac OS supports the 8800gt - why were the previous Mac Pro users unable to upgrade to a 8800GT to lengthen the life if their machines?

It's cards - slots and drivers. What am I missing?

The 8800 GT's has an EF164 driver in its ROM, whereas the older 2006/7 Mac Pro's require a 32-bit one. This according to Barefeats:http://www.barefeats.com/york2.html

They also say they've heard rumors that Apple is working on an upgraded 8800 GT kit that would work with the older MAC PRO's.

While it's true that the Mac Pro is not the best deal for gaming, I just bought a Mac Pro instead of an iMac because of the lousy graphics card in the iMac. I opted for the 8800GT and the single 2.8 quad. Eight cores does not improve gaming performance but a better GPU sure does! This goes to show that some people, although not gamers, want a better graphics card in the iMac. As a previous poster has said - heat issues limit graphic card choices. The current graphics card (HD 2600 pro) is passively cooled to make it quiet.

 

[brucealeg]

I actually disagree a little, for the price the system is as stout a machine as anything Alienware is doing - minus the GPU. I get that they aren't focused on games, but gamers are interested them. I am all for buying a Mac Pro for video editing and bootcamping into XP for games. Assuming bootcamp overhead doesn't kill XP performance.

All thats needed here are the video cards. If Apple adds a 8800GTX to the line and keeps that one high end card; while offering it to previous gen owners so they aren't obsolete in a year - they would have a slam dunk product without directly having to support games.

Just my two cents. I think they can have it both ways. I am still considering a Mac Pro, but I am scared about being victimized in a year.

 

[Macguy]

Apple states on their web site that the Mac Pro is the ultimate gamming Machine, I am with Juscuziam but I think SLi and Crossfire will soon be a thing of the past, dual and quad GPU cards will be used for gamming, ATI has just released such a beast that blows all Nvidia cards out of the water. ATI HD 3870 with dual GPU's, pretty amazing. Soon they will release one for Mac. So if you dont think Mac is a good gamming system I am surprised, but if you use a Mac monitor for games no video card in the world wil make you games look nice. Mac monitors are still in the Commodore 64 days, 14ms refresh rate, oh my, Mac Monitors suck for gaming, TV and fast motion video, you need a Dell Crystal 22inch, fastest monitor on the planet, 2ms refresh rate, I have one, very pricy but nice.



Just my three cents

 

[the8thark]

But the real question here is when does the differences between screens or graphics cards become so minute or so advanced so that the human eye can not tell the difference? Does it really matter at that point?

 

[bryphotoguy]

Apple states on their web site that the Mac Pro is the ultimate gamming Machine, I am with Juscuziam but I think SLi and Crossfire will soon be a thing of the past, dual and quad GPU cards will be used for gamming, ATI has just released such a beast that blows all Nvidia cards out of the water. ATI HD 3870 with dual GPU's, pretty amazing. Soon they will release one for Mac. So if you dont think Mac is a good gamming system I am surprised, but if you use a Mac monitor for games no video card in the world wil make you games look nice. Mac monitors are still in the Commodore 64 days, 14ms refresh rate, oh my, Mac Monitors suck for gaming, TV and fast motion video, you need a Dell Crystal 22inch, fastest monitor on the planet, 2ms refresh rate, I have one, very pricy but nice.



Just my three cents

I looked at every single page under apple.com/macpro and found one reference to gaming. There was a graph of 3 video cards with the fps score for Doom 3. The word gaming isn't even found. Just a simple graph with the title "Graphics Cards." please, show me where Apple says it is the ultimate gaming machine. Seriously, I want to see it.

Did ATI say they were going to release this dual GPU card for Mac? Can I see a link for that too?

Apple cinema displays are not designed for gaming. It's designed as a sub pro graphics monitor. It has a really low refresh rate 12ms as you mentioned to achieve a better color accuracy. High end pro monitors have a 30ms refresh rate to achieve even more accuracy.

Again, your trying, assuming, hoping an Apple product was designed for gamers. It's not. Please provide some links to prove some credibility.

 

[Zoolook]

Apple states on their web site that the Mac Pro is the ultimate gamming Machine,

Well that settles it...

Without being factitious, there are many ways of building an excellent gaming rig... and a Mac Pro is only one way, and probably not the most cost efficient or even most powerful approach. I find it bizarre that anyone would argue so strongly against this.

 

[Zoolook]

But the real question here is when does the differences between screens or graphics cards become so minute or so advanced so that the human eye can not tell the difference? Does it really matter at that point?

Screen refresh issues can easily be spotted by anyone, except the clinically blind, so this point is well taken.

As for GFX card capabilities, it's complex, but by and large the latest/greatest games will always push even the top end cards very hard. For example Crysis can barely run at 30fps even on a single 8800GT, which is a pretty good card. The CPU in these cases makes virtually no difference.

 

[svnipp]

I am not here to debate that is easy, I like the reliability of Macs, I can list thousands, the Mac pro 8 core is beyond and PC power wise, I will invest as I am sure thousands will if it can run windows with dx10 and Pcie 16bt and later crossfire or SLI, if you are a hard core gamer you know what the Mac pro means in power for games and game servers. Why should a machine be held back buy a simple Video card? is it because MS has the 90% share of games on the PC with DX10? and Apple has been bared from the scene and only allowed to have so much technology? Rights with video card makers, seems odd. If someone has a Mac pro 8 core could you test this for me ? I would really appreciate it

I'm a PC gamer myself, and I just bought a Mac Pro. Though, if you understand the nature of games and Winblows you should understand that getting an 8 core Mac Pro for this is serious overkill. Games have to be written to take advantage of multiple cores, and there are not many multithreaded games that are going to do this and I would doubt any that could actually make use of 8 cores. This is the reason that I saved $500 on the second processor and got my Mac Pro with a single Quad core rather than 2.

I think it's a huge stretch to say that MS has 90% share of games because of DX10. DX10 is only available on Vista, and personally I haven't loaded Vista and I'm planning on keeping it that way. The software industry writes games/applications for the market. Since MS is 90% of the desktop market it is absolutely going to have the lion's share of the game titles. This is the reason that most games are written for Windows first and Mac is an afterthought at best in a lot of cases. Once Apple is able to exceed 15% or so of the desktop market, you will see game developers starting to write games for Mac at the same time they are writing games for Winblows. I agree with you that this will be a huge boost to Apple.

Good luck with the Mac Pro, but unless you just have money to throw away I would scale back on the second Quad core. Your games aren't going to miss it, I promise.

 

[svnipp]

We're just kinda warning you that there are much better systems out there for gaming than the Mac Pro. I've seen plenty of tests ran where people made their own PC equivalents to the Mac Pro and they've come out faster for gaming. None of them can legally run OS X but that's a trade off any gamer must sacrifice if they want a gaming machine that also has the ability to run OS X.

Just thought I would argue the tail end of this part. In doing some research on this, you can "legally" (I think, I'm not an attorney) install OS X on a non-Mac PC. There are whole websites and newsgroups devoted to just such a beast. From my research, the consensus is that if you purchase a copy of OS X, you cannot be prosecuted for copyright infringement. Installing this on a non-Mac PC would put you in violation of the EULA, but this is NOT a criminal violation. I believe that Apple COULD possibly pursue civil action, but this would really be unheard of.

I came really close to going this route myself. However, I like what I have seen from Apple and my old PC was giving me fits, so I decided to take the plunge. The new Mac Pro is to be delivered tomorrow, and I plan on spending all day Monday getting familiar with it.

 

[bryphotoguy]

It goes against policy to discuss any illegal matter here whether it be criminal or civil.

 

[theonegod]

The very agreement you accept when you install OSX says you can't install OSX on non MAC hardware. Also buying a copy of OSX won't save you because you wont be using that copy to install on your PC as it doesn't work that way. The actually copy you put on your PC you will not have purchased and you will have obtained via illegal means (yes illegal means) and you will furthermore be violating the EULA when you go through with the installation. AGREEING in the process that you can be prosecuted for doing so.

 

[Zoolook]

All - regardless of the legality, violations of EULA for any software is against forum rules, so I suggest we agree that for all intent and purpose, if you want OS X, you buy a Mac. ;D

Virtually no games have any benefit from anything more than 2 cores, so I completely agree with svnipp's comments, and said this earlier in the thread. In fact, even a game like Crysis with Dual 8800GTX's in SLI shows virtually no frame rate difference betwee, a 3.2ghz C2D and a 2.0ghz C2D with only 2 cores. Almost any DX10 game currently is bottlenecked by the GPU(s) not the CPUs.

If you're ONLY consideration is gaming, an 8-core machine is a complete waste of money. Games efficiently using 8 cores or more, are at least 3 or 4 years away.