M1 Macs - options for running Windows software

[cwa107]

So, I bit the bullet and made the jump to an M1 Pro-powered MacBook Pro. I'm very pleased with the performance and overall quality of the machine, especially as compared to my 2018 MBA. Rosetta seems to be working just fine for the purpose of running Intel apps, and the performance is shockingly good.

After I had gotten all of my core apps installed and tested, I was reminded about virtualization options (or lack thereof) when I noticed my VMWare Fusion install had ported over from my Time Machine backup. Of course it doesn't run, even with Rosetta, but that led me to wonder what the present and future state of Windows software running on the Mac will be.

I noticed that CodeWeavers have capitalized on this as they have a ton of ads whenever you start searching for M1 compatibility options for legacy 32-bit Intel apps (obviously already eliminated in Monterrey) as well as Windows apps (and primarily games). I'm wondering if anyone has gone down this road and to what extent you've had success.

Secondly, I noticed that Parallels already has a rudimentary solution for running Windows - specifically the ARM preview version of Windows 11 (which itself has x86 emulation baked in). Again, I'm curious if anyone has experimented with it. I haven't messed around with Parallels in a while, but the last time I did, I noted that it's gotten even more expensive than it was in the past, so I'm a little hesitant to test the waters with what appears to be a mostly experimental Windows 11 build. Any thoughts on this aspect?

Finally, I'm wondering if there are any other solutions that I maybe just haven't heard of yet. Now, I have a desktop Windows machine (primarily for gaming), so this isn't really a desperate need, I'd just like to have the flexibility to conveniently run some Windows apps if the need arises.

Thanks in advance for any thoughts you might have.

 

[Raz0rEdge]

As far as I know, Parallels is the one the farthest along this than others. Not sure VMWare has made any progress on this since the last time I checked.

I'd also heard rumors that MS was going to put some effort on a ARM version of Windows and if they do that, this becomes trivial, but otherwise we'll just have to wait for a while.

I have a need to run Windows for work related things, so I can't make that switch yet and don't feel like having a Mac dedicated for Windows work and will definitely NOT have a full-time Windows machine.

 

[cwa107]

As far as I know, Parallels is the one the farthest along this than others. Not sure VMWare has made any progress on this since the last time I checked.

I'd also heard rumors that MS was going to put some effort on a ARM version of Windows and if they do that, this becomes trivial, but otherwise we'll just have to wait for a while.

I have a need to run Windows for work related things, so I can't make that switch yet and don't feel like having a Mac dedicated for Windows work and will definitely NOT have a full-time Windows machine.

Hey, thanks Ashwin - and long time, no see. Glad to see you still here on M-F.

It is regrettable that Apple went this way without having a solid option for Windows virtualization or emulation at least in the pipeline, as I'm sure they know that a sizeable portion of their current user base came over as switchers. I guess they're betting on most of us being so firmly entrenched in the Apple ecosystem at this point that it really doesn't matter all that much.

Still, I know in the enterprise, this gives the Mac a pretty big black eye. Given some of Apple's more recent attempts in infiltrate that sector, I wonder if they aren't quietly cultivating some solution that will have a very targeted audience. Should be interesting to watch.

The good news is, this machine is just stupid-fast. I can't bog it down no matter what I do. It really is as impressive as the press has indicated it to be. I primarily bought it as I anticipate doing a great deal of work in iMovie and potentially FCP, and I can see it handling both with very little trouble.

 

[Raz0rEdge]

From Apple's perspective, they only want users to stick with macOS and be productive and if a switcher were to wholly switch, I imagine they'll find alternatives within the Mac world to satisfy their needs.

In my case, I have to support some legacy Windows stuff that will never work on a Mac, so I need a VM of Windows to have access to it. But 99% of my life is in the Mac world with Mac apps, so the M1 based Macs would totally work.

I'd also very much like to realize the greater performance of the ARM based Macs once we can have more than 8 or 16GB of memory.

From an enterprise perspective, if companies have gone all Mac like some companies have, the transition is no issue at all. It's the companies that are hybrid and those that are all about BYOD where issues arise.

 

[Slydude]

@cwa107 Welcome back. Where have you been?

 

[Raz0rEdge]

Additionally, we've begun rolling out M1 based Macs in my company now for some developers who don't have to deal with the legacy Windows stuff and they are 100% productive there without issues.

I've got the old Intel MBP for this purpose, so technically I could upgrade my Intel Mac Mini to the M1 based one and be covered. But I just can't work with 16GB max on it, I need at least 32GB.

 

[pigoo3]

Hello Chris...GREAT to hear from ya!

Congrats on getting a new M1 Pro MacBook Pro! I know you've had your ups & downs concerning Apple hardware over the years (less upgradeability/repairability)...bugs me & others a lot too. Everything you said is what I've been reading (M1 Mac's are very fast...and Rosetta 2 runs older Intel apps almost as fast as native Intel CPU).

Seems last time I read about Windows emulation on M1 Mac's...wasn't quite as "mature/ready" for prime-time yet (hopefully that's changing).

I've been seriously thinking about getting an M1 Mac-Mini for a while now. I probably would have had one already...but I want/need more ports for monitors. The rumor is the next Mac-Mini release/announcement (probably next month...March)...and will be a higher end Mac-Mini (faster & have more ports).

Big factor (as always)...will be the price)!

- Nick

 

[lclev]

Hi Chris! I have a 14" MBP M1 max/64GB. I run Parallels 17 within Monterey and have Windows 11 Pro ARM edition insider preview installed. I wanted to run a windows specific program that we use at church for projecting media called Easyworship. It runs Easyworship flawlessly which surprised me as the program can be picky.
I also like the fact it is extremely easy to move between Monterey and Windows 11. I can run Windows 11 and pop over to Monterey with a click. That was not so with older versions. I could never remember the key sequence to release the mouse to drop out of one OS to go to the other. That is no more.

I would comment on gaming but I don't do more than the occasional solitaire. Sorry...

Lisa

 

[cwa107]

@cwa107 Welcome back. Where have you been?

Hey Sly, thanks! Between my job, raising two teenagers and all the fun that goes along with that, life has just been a roller coaster. But now that we've collected so many great memories, I'm coming back to the Mac to start turning them into videos. It's amazing how much footage has just sat on disks, unwatched. It's time to turn that around and I think this new Mac should help.

 

[cwa107]

Hello Chris...GREAT to hear from ya!

Congrats on getting a new M1 Pro MacBook Pro! I know you've had your ups & downs concerning Apple hardware over the years (less upgradeability/repairability)...bugs me & others a lot too. Everything you said is what I've been reading (M1 Mac's are very fast...and Rosetta 2 runs older Intel apps almost as fast as native Intel CPU).

Seems last time I read about Windows emulation on M1 Mac's...wasn't quite as "mature/ready" for prime-time yet (hopefully that's changing).

I've been seriously thinking about getting an M1 Mac-Mini for a while now. I probably would have had one already...but I want/need more ports for monitors. The rumor is the next Mac-Mini release/announcement (probably next month...March)...and will be a higher end Mac-Mini (faster & have more ports).

Big factor (as always)...will be the price)!

- Nick

Hey Nick, thanks for the warm welcome!

I guess I've finally let go of any hope of Apple going back to a more traditional hardware model. They are charting their own course as usual and it looks like it's been quite successful for them.

At the end of the day, I've come to the conclusion that resisting the tide is futile, so it's better to try to go with the flow. At the very least, these more recent models seem better sorted out internally. A lot of the issues they've had with thermals, display cables and the keyboard seem to finally be resolved. This is a thicker machine to be sure, but it runs very cool and should have a good, long life. I went with the larger SSD figuring more capacity should mean better wear-leveling over time. Fingers crossed!

And I get you about the price.... this is by far the most expensive computer I've ever purchased. You'd think with Apple no longer having to pay a premium to Intel for the CPU, they'd pass along some of the savings, but that wouldn't be very Apple-like, would it?

 

[cwa107]

Hi Chris! I have a 14" MBP M1 max/64GB. I run Parallels 17 within Monterey and have Windows 11 Pro ARM edition insider preview installed. I wanted to run a windows specific program that we use at church for projecting media called Easyworship. It runs Easyworship flawlessly which surprised me as the program can be picky.
I also like the fact it is extremely easy to move between Monterey and Windows 11. I can run Windows 11 and pop over to Monterey with a click. That was not so with older versions. I could never remember the key sequence to release the mouse to drop out of one OS to go to the other. That is no more.

I would comment on gaming but I don't do more than the occasional solitaire. Sorry...

Lisa

Hi Lisa. Thanks for the feedback. I actually found this article yesterday: Microsoft Windows 11 on an M1 Mac

I'm trying to install W11 under UTM to see how that goes and if I'm not satisfied with the performance (assuming I can get it working at all.. no luck so far), I'll definitely go the Parallels route. Sounds like it's working well for you. Thanks for sharing and I appreciate your insight!

 

[lclev]

I will be curious to see what you think of UTM. It is a much cheaper option. If I had not already had Parallels I would have considered UTM. I will say Parallels took care of everything when I installed Windows 11 ARM. I used the Windows 10 product key from my previous installation on my 2020 13" MBP which I sold.

Lisa

 

[cwa107]

I will be curious to see what you think of UTM. It is a much cheaper option. If I had not already had Parallels I would have considered UTM. I will say Parallels took care of everything when I installed Windows 11 ARM. I used the Windows 10 product key from my previous installation on my 2020 13" MBP which I sold.

Lisa

Welp, I have good news and bad news, I suppose.

The good news is, Windows 11 works just fine under UTM. I was able to run a few basic Windows apps without any trouble (including those that are compiled for x86/x64). The bad news is, UTM doesn't seem to have much, if any, GPU emulation or acceleration, at least not at the moment. It *does* seem to provide enough that some of the "Aero" style effects and so on work just fine. It also dynamically scales the screen, allows for seamless pointer transitions, ability to connect to host resources and so on. So, all the basic pieces of virtualization are there.

Bad news is, no one is going to be playing modern games on such a setup. Not that it was great in Fusion/Parallels, but older Steam games (like Portal) ran fine there - not so much on UTM. I would say Portal ran at about 5 FPS, if that. In terms of optimizing for the M1/ARM, I am encouraged that it seems to recognize the availability of performance vs efficiency cores and uses them transparently. It doesn't seem to excessively drain the battery either and I did not hear my fans spool up at all, like I would when I ran Fusion on my MBA.

For my purposes, this is a workable solution. I see no reason to invest in Parallels at this time. I'm not sure that it will help those who were accustomed to using a Boot Camp partition (especially if they did so because they needed direct hardware access), but for basic Windows apps, it does the job!

 

[cwa107]

Side note - I was a little tossed up on the 14" vs. 16". I spent quite a bit of time looking at both side-by-side at the Apple Store. I'm glad I opted for the 14" - it's a pretty decent balance between usable screen space and portability. Having gone back to my MBA this morning to prep it to be traded in, I noticed immediately that the screen was significantly smaller on that MBA.

Overall, now that I have the virtualization issue sorted out, I'm a pretty happy camper with this machine! I think the only other thing I'm worried about at the moment is Amiga emulation - but I suspect I can get that working with some elbow grease.

 

[lclev]

Amiga - wow now that is a system from my past. I think my brother still has his Amiga system. I was not into computers at the time so I just have a far distant memory of it. I know he loved it. Good Luck!

Lisa

 

[L.V.Gandhi]

Welp, I have good news and bad news, I suppose.

The good news is, Windows 11 works just fine under UTM. I was able to run a few basic Windows apps without any trouble (including those that are compiled for x86/x64). The bad news is, UTM doesn't seem to have much, if any, GPU emulation or acceleration, at least not at the moment. It *does* seem to provide enough that some of the "Aero" style effects and so on work just fine. It also dynamically scales the screen, allows for seamless pointer transitions, ability to connect to host resources and so on. So, all the basic pieces of virtualization are there.

Bad news is, no one is going to be playing modern games on such a setup. Not that it was great in Fusion/Parallels, but older Steam games (like Portal) ran fine there - not so much on UTM. I would say Portal ran at about 5 FPS, if that. In terms of optimizing for the M1/ARM, I am encouraged that it seems to recognize the availability of performance vs efficiency cores and uses them transparently. It doesn't seem to excessively drain the battery either and I did not hear my fans spool up at all, like I would when I ran Fusion on my MBA.

For my purposes, this is a workable solution. I see no reason to invest in Parallels at this time. I'm not sure that it will help those who were accustomed to using a Boot Camp partition (especially if they did so because they needed direct hardware access), but for basic Windows apps, it does the job!

I installed windows 11 insider 22499 using latest utm. Everything works but for settings of windows 11. Which version you have installed and how?

 

[cwa107]

Amiga - wow now that is a system from my past. I think my brother still has his Amiga system. I was not into computers at the time so I just have a far distant memory of it. I know he loved it. Good Luck!

Lisa

It was groundbreaking for its time and still has capabilities unmatched in modern systems.

I am a die hard Amiga fan and still own 2 systems that have been modernized enough to connect to contemporary monitors and peripherals.

 

[cwa107]

I installed windows 11 insider 22499 using latest utm. Everything works but for settings of windows 11. Which version you have installed and how?

I used the instructions on UTM's site here:

Windows 10

Virtual machines for Mac

mac.getutm.app

I am using build 22533, downloaded yesterday. Do not forget to install the SPICE guest tools post-install. That's the only tricky part.

 

[Slydude]

It was groundbreaking for its time and still has capabilities unmatched in modern systems.

I am a die hard Amiga fan and still own 2 systems that have been modernized enough to connect to contemporary monitors and peripherals.

The first computer that I owned was an Apple II GS. I almost got an Amiga but I was familiar with the Apple II line and it had better support in education. I knew one or two people that owned Commodore systems and they loved them.

 

[L.V.Gandhi]

I used the instructions on UTM's site here:

Windows 10

Virtual machines for Mac

mac.getutm.app

I am using build 22533, downloaded yesterday. Do not forget to install the SPICE guest tools post-install. That's the only tricky part.

I have installed spice tools also. But after installation of spice tools, net I can connect. Once connected to net, settings is not opening. Until spice tools installed, settings opens after that it is not opening.