Do politicans pander to our irrational side?

[Shannonb]

I don't really see how we are voting are way to socialism. America is more conservative now than it has been in 50 years.

It took multiple royal mess ups and scandals to finally get people to vote for Democrats in Congress.

I don't consider barely being able to get liberal progressives into office a step towards socialism other than in the basic terminology that liberalism is closer to socialism than conservatism. In other words, I don't think America will ever be a socialist country, nor would I want it to be.

 

[CL33Zero]

I don't really see how we are voting are way to socialism. America is more conservative now than it has been in 50 years.

It took multiple royal mess ups and scandals to finally get people to vote for Democrats in Congress.

I don't consider barely being able to get liberal progressives into office a step towards socialism other than in the basic terminology that liberalism is closer to socialism than conservatism. In other words, I don't think America will ever be a socialist country, nor would I want it to be.

"The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter" - Winstion Churchill

Dangers because there is a equality of opportunity. Breeds a tyranny of the middle class. Group conformity is a danger, a sort of "quiet despotism."

In theory, all democracys become some sort of socialist country. So yes, I can agree that we are headed there. How long? Maybe sooner than most people would like to think, but still, not for a while.

And going way way back in the thread, I agree that when a market is controlled as little as possible by the feds, it is most efficient by far. Its always held true.

I dont understand how people can think that jobs are more important that production though. To think otherwise is just....I dont know. I just dosnt make sense. Maybe people are just thinking in self interest? (job=money)

If you have lots of jobs, but nobody is producing anything, its just a big waste of time and effort, sure they are getting paid, but that would just make the money worthless considering nothing is being produced for the money to represent. (not sure, am I correct in this area? Somebody?)

 

[baggss]

I don't really see how we are voting are way to socialism. America is more conservative now than it has been in 50 years.

Actually, I completely disagree. Consider Homosexuality, G a y Marriage, Women rights, Civil Rights, immigration, drugs and a host of other topics and you will find that we are considerably more socially liberal than we were even 10 years ago, much less 50.

Don't confuse the fact that the current administration is conservative with the fact that America is becoming more socially liberal at a rather rapid pace. Once society reaches an open acceptance of anything, there is really no way a government, liberal or conservative, can change that attitude back, at least not in a free society. They can, however, pander to it to gain votes.

 

[Shannonb]

Actually, I completely disagree. Consider Homosexuality, G a y Marriage, Women rights, Civil Rights, immigration, drugs and a host of other topics and you will find that we are considerably more socially liberal than we were even 10 years ago, much less 50.

Don't confuse the fact that the current administration is conservative with the fact that America is becoming more socially liberal at a rather rapid pace. Once society reaches an open acceptance of anything, there is really no way a government, liberal or conservative, can change that attitude back, at least not in a free society. They can, however, pander to it to gain votes.

What if George Bush would have found Osama Bin Laden and prosecuted? What if he would have won the Iraq war easily and returned all the troops within a year? What if their wouldnt have been multiple hypocritical conservative politicians found in comprising and often homosexual positions?

My point that America is becoming liberal now, but only because the conservatives could not have screwed up more over the past 7 years.

For a long time the word liberal was made into a four letter word by the conservative. Now tide is shifting. More and more people want to adopt social liberalism because their embarrassed tho say their conservative. Seriously, not allowing gay marriage? I feel like we are back in the 50's.

 

[baggss]

My point that America is becoming liberal now, but only because the conservatives could not have screwed up more over the past 7 years.

Much as we became more conservative after 8 years of a Democrat in the White House and much as we became more liberal after 12 years of Republicans in the white house and so on. If you look at the bigger picture, this is a repetitive cycle, but the march towards socialism continues and is likely to do so. The question is, how far will we go.

Seriously, not allowing gay marriage? I feel like we are back in the 50's.

Please, lets not bring specific personal political/social preferences or beliefs into this discussion as it will turn into something else and change the nature of the discussion.

 

[papercut]

I don't really see how we are voting are way to socialism. America is more conservative now than it has been in 50 years.

I know it's probably not PC to ask your age, Shannonb, but I have to disagree. In 1960, JFK was considered a liberal. By today's standards, he'd be extremely conservative. I wish some of the Republicans were as conservative as JFK. He's the one who first found that tax cuts actually increase the tax revenue to the government because business and investment flourishes. JFK is the one who stood up to Castro and Russia when they were aiming missiles at the U.S. Name me one current liberal who would threaten nuclear war. Several of the Democratic candidates have already said that they'd never use nuclear weapons.

Rob and Laura Petry slept in separate beds on the **** Van Dyke show. Ricky referred to Lucy as being "expectin'" because the word 'pregnant' was considered vulgar.

More conservative now??? I can't find a single example of it.

 

[Shannonb]

I know it's probably not PC to ask your age, Shannonb, but I have to disagree. In 1960, JFK was considered a liberal. By today's standards, he'd be extremely conservative. I wish some of the Republicans were as conservative as JFK. He's the one who first found that tax cuts actually increase the tax revenue to the government because business and investment flourishes. JFK is the one who stood up to Castro and Russia when they were aiming missiles at the U.S. Name me one current liberal who would threaten nuclear war. Several of the Democratic candidates have already said that they'd never use nuclear weapons.

Rob and Laura Petry slept in separate beds on the **** Van Dyke show. Ricky referred to Lucy as being "expectin'" because the word 'pregnant' was considered vulgar.

More conservative now??? I can't find a single example of it.

How about 80 million evangelical christians who consider gays to be an workers of Satan?

What I am saying is, the nation as whole, is very conservative right now. I'm not saying we are actually more conservative than we were. But compared where I think we should be as far as our social views, we are very conservative.

I'd I truly despise when people call former leaders of our country who were liberal conservative. He was liberal then, did some pretty great things (although personally I think his impact is slightly over exaggerated), but now conservatives say that he was actually a conservative. No he was a liberal, period. Just like Abraham Lincoln was a liberal when he freed the slaves and FDR was a liberal when he fought the Great Depression and WWII. And lest we forget, the only person ever to use the force of nuclear weapons for what I believe to be a great cause, Harry S. Truman, was a liberal.

 

[papercut]

I'm not saying we are actually more conservative than we were.

Dude... which way do you want it? See below.

America is more conservative now than it has been in 50 years.

If you missed my point, let me try again. In 1960, Kennedy was much more liberal than Nixon. In today's terms, comparing what JFK espoused in 1960 with what the Republicans are favoring today, Kennedy would be considered a conservative. Probably on the far-right.

FDR was as close to being a socialist as we've ever had in the Whitehouse. The Clintons are a close second.

You know, I think we've strayed about as far from the original topic as I'd care to go. It's been fun. We see the world through different experiences and beliefs, and that's all good.

I'll now see if I can start an argument with you about a much more entertaining topic -- the best and worst actors/actresses.

 

[Shannonb]

Dude... which way do you want it? See below.



If you missed my point, let me try again. In 1960, Kennedy was much more liberal than Nixon. In today's terms, comparing what JFK espoused in 1960 with what the Republicans are favoring today, Kennedy would be considered a conservative. Probably on the far-right.

FDR was as close to being a socialist as we've ever had in the Whitehouse. The Clintons are a close second.

You know, I think we've strayed about as far from the original topic as I'd care to go. It's been fun. We see the world through different experiences and beliefs, and that's all good.

I'll now see if I can start an argument with you about a much more entertaining topic -- the best and worst actors/actresses.

Lol fair enough.

Just to clarify. What I was saying is, as far as progression goes America has gotten a lot more liberal since its inception. This has made America better. But in the past 7 years the progression has seemed to take a halt. Thats what I meant, though I agree that I worded it poorly.

Onto actor and actresses...

 

[baggss]

Lol fair enough.

Just to clarify. What I was saying is, as far as progression goes America has gotten a lot more liberal since its inception. This has made America better. But in the past 7 years the progression has seemed to take a halt. Thats what I meant, though I agree that I worded it poorly.

Onto actor and actresses...

Again, I disagree. The progression has slowed somewhat, but not by a huge factor.

7 years ago it was illegal for an openly gay person to serve in the US Military, today it is not. Now this is an institution that is controlled by the individual you apparently blame for the halt in social progress. Doesn't sound very socially conservative to me, and the US Military is one of the most socially conservative institutions in the US.

7 Years ago gay marriage was not legal anywhere in the US, today it is legal in several states with several more planning on following. Again, not a very conservative thing.

As for the 80 Million Evangelical Christians, they've been there for years (and there were more of them with more political influence 50 years ago) and their thoughts on homosexuality aren't going to change because someone shoves it down their throats.

 

[WakeCarver]

How about 80 million evangelical christians who consider gays to be an workers of Satan?

I'm a Christian and a republican. I think gay marriage should be a personal choice and not regulated by the government. By no means do I believe that gays are workers of Satan. One of my best friends is gay and he also happens to be a Christian and a republican. Not all Christians or all republicans are against gay marriage. I also happen to believe in evolution, you can't completely ignore science.

7 years ago it was illegal for an openly gay person to serve in the US Military, today it is not.

This is not entirely true. I'm a soldier in the U.S. Army Military Police Corps. If a soldier is openly gay in the military then that soldier is almost always discharged immediately. There are several laws under UCMJ (Uniform Code of Military Justice), which applies to all branches of service, that prevent wrongful cohabitation and homosexual behavior. I'm not saying it is illegal to be gay in the military, it is just illegal under UCMJ to act in a homosexual manner.

As for the original post, I think politicians will pretty much say or do anything to get votes. This seems to be the rule rather than the exception, which is rather unfortunate for everybody. Both sides have their strengths and weaknesses and there is much to be learned by trying to see things from the other sides point of view.

 

[cheesybanana]

We are more liberal socially than 50 years ago, by far.

We are more conservative economically than 50 years ago, by far.

Most people here are combining the two. They are not at all the same.

It should also be mentioned that different situations call for different policies economically. FDR greatly sped up our recovery from the Great Depression by implementing what we would now consider very socialistic policies. But they worked. Implement the same policies now, and our economy would be devastated.

 

[TheCustomer99]

We are more liberal socially than 50 years ago, by far.

This is due to people finally realizing that other groups aren't bad. We still have a long way to go though.

We are more conservative economically than 50 years ago, by far.

50 years ago Keynesian economics was the predominant theory. The classical economists (Smith, Ricardo, et. al.) had been somewhat disregarded after the depression, and Keynes' ideas worked for a while. Then, somewhere around the Nixon or Carter administration, the recession with nearly 17% unemployment created a shift to the right in economic theory again. And so it has been.

 

[CL33Zero]

I'm a Christian and a republican. I think gay marriage should be a personal choice and not regulated by the government. I also happen to believe in evolution, you can't completely ignore science.

Great examples of how much more liberal the world is getting......

Yes you can. "The devil himself, masquerades as a angel of light." Global warming and the big bang theory are the worlds top religions now. Its sad really. Never in any time in history, has any people abandoned there God so readily.


As for gay marriage, its wrong, get over it. Marriage was made to be between a man and a women. End of story. Can I hate a person, or tell them that they are sick'os, that are scum, unnatural ect, ect. No, I cant, and as much as I do not believe in it, and think it is wrong, I cannot condemn anyone for it, it is a form of adultery. We are all guilty of adultery "Look at another with lust." Its wrong, yes, but adultery is adultery, you cant "advance to level two." We are all guilty of the same sin. How can someone condemn another without looking at yourself? But should we support, and pretend that its right? **** no! Do want they want, its on them, they are no guiltier than anyone else. But marriage is set in stone, and should be. If two men or women are together, its not marriage, its something else. Invent your own thing for it, but its not marriage. Besides I think they should fight more for the benefits of being married (tax breaks and such) rather than taking the stand and saying "I do." Why should they want to get married anyway? Ever sense there little liberal advancements 50% of marriages end in divorce. Ya, way to go with that one.

I guess, my point would be, thats its wrong, and always has been, I mean come on, its not even the way things are suppose to work, I will always say that being gay is wrong (because it is) but so is alot of other things people do, but I will never take a stand of acceptance for it. Alot of things I do in my life are wrong, but I dont ask people to say its ok, or to just let me. Its wrong and I know it, and you try your best to change.

 

[TheCustomer99]

Great examples of how much more liberal the world is getting......

Yes you can. "The devil himself, masquerades as a angel of light." Global warming and the big bang theory are the worlds top religions now. Its sad really. Never in any time in history, has any people abandoned there God so readily.


As for gay marriage, its wrong, get over it. Marriage was made to be between a man and a women. End of story. Can I hate a person, or tell them that they are sick'os, that are scum, unnatural ect, ect. No, I cant, and as much as I do not believe in it, and think it is wrong, I cannot condemn anyone for it, it is a form of adultery. We are all guilty of adultery "Look at another with lust." Its wrong, yes, but adultery is adultery, you cant "advance to level two." We are all guilty of the same sin. How can someone condemn another without looking at yourself? But should we support, and pretend that its right? **** no! Do want they want, its on them, they are no guiltier than anyone else. But marriage is set in stone, and should be. If two men or women are together, its not marriage, its something else. Invent your own thing for it, but its not marriage. Besides I think they should fight more for the benefits of being married (tax breaks and such) rather than taking the stand and saying "I do." Why should they want to get married anyway? Ever sense there little liberal advancements 50% of marriages end in divorce. Ya, way to go with that one.

I guess, my point would be, thats its wrong, and always has been, I mean come on, its not even the way things are suppose to work, I will always say that being gay is wrong (because it is) but so is alot of other things people do, but I will never take a stand of acceptance for it. Alot of things I do in my life are wrong, but I dont ask people to say its ok, or to just let me. Its wrong and I know it, and you try your best to change.

And this thread begins to take a turn for the worse.

Ok, fine, we'll debate this.

Firstly, how are global warming and the big bang religions? Is it because you don't want it to be true? Science is based on indepenent lines of inquiry converging on a single point. Science has nothing to do with religion. Believe what you want, but don't act like science's goal is to send everyone to Dante's Inferno. Science and religion need not be in conflict. There is no grand conspiracy by scientists to overthrow religion.

Secondly, why does it matter... (really think about this)... Why does it matter what someone else does with their life? What makes you think that gay marriage would increase divorce? Would a straight couple just look at a gay couple and say, "That's it! We're getting a divorce!" I think the gays would cherish the marriage license enough that it would actually gain meaning again. I go by the philosophy that you can do whatever you want as long as it doesn't infringe on the equal rights of others. That's freedom, that's small government, and that gives people the ultimate responsibility over their lives.

This stuff is what really drove me away from being a conservative and towards libertarianism.

 

[cheesybanana]

This is due to people finally realizing that other groups aren't bad. We still have a long way to go though.

50 years ago Keynesian economics was the predominant theory. The classical economists (Smith, Ricardo, et. al.) had been somewhat disregarded after the depression, and Keynes' ideas worked for a while. Then, somewhere around the Nixon or Carter administration, the recession with nearly 17% unemployment created a shift to the right in economic theory again. And so it has been.

Exactly.

I just joined my campus' College Libertarians. I was really excited when I found out we had one.

As for gay marriage, its wrong, get over it.

Your wrong, get over it.

Gay marriage is not the point of this thread, by the way.

 

[CL33Zero]

Your wrong, get over it.

Haha, o really? Well then why dont you inform us of how the world goes round?

 

[cheesybanana]

Haha, o really? Well then why dont you inform us of how the world goes round?

What? I was making fun of you...

 

[TheCustomer99]

I just joined my campus' College Libertarians. I was really excited when I found out we had one.

I hope there's a group like that at my college, but I haven't found one yet.

CL33Zero, take a look at my response to your first post on this subject.

 

[WakeCarver]

And this thread begins to take a turn for the worse.

Ok, fine, we'll debate this.

Firstly, how are global warming and the big bang religions? Is it because you don't want it to be true? Science is based on indepenent lines of inquiry converging on a single point. Science has nothing to do with religion. Believe what you want, but don't act like science's goal is to send everyone to Dante's Inferno. Science and religion need not be in conflict. There is no grand conspiracy by scientists to overthrow religion.

Secondly, why does it matter... (really think about this)... Why does it matter what someone else does with their life? What makes you think that gay marriage would increase divorce? Would a straight couple just look at a gay couple and say, "That's it! We're getting a divorce!" I think the gays would cherish the marriage license enough that it would actually gain meaning again. I go by the philosophy that you can do whatever you want as long as it doesn't infringe on the equal rights of others. That's freedom, that's small government, and that gives people the ultimate responsibility over their lives.

This stuff is what really drove me away from being a conservative and towards libertarianism.

Well said!