Deleting specific data from a Time Machine backup held on an external drive

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I find myself in a novel situation where I need to urgently delete some data from my Time Machine (TM) backup on an external HDD. I need the data properly destroyed so that if someone were able to access the drive, they couldn't recover this data even with third party data recovery tools. I've used Permanent Eraser for years, but I'm unsure of whether I can truly rely on it to delete files held on drives other than the MBP's own internal ones. It seems that without any kind of proper options or menu system of its own, permanent eraser can only do its secure deletion of files once they've been moved to the Bin via the standard 'move to bin' command. For example, if I navigate to the relevant folder on the external drive via Finder, and then select "move to bin", isn't it just copying the data from the external drive to the bin, leaving the original copy on the external drive??

To get around this potential issue I purchased Clean My Mac X which looks to be the perfect tool and which throws in a few system optimisation benefits along with the main reason I've bought it: the File Shredder feature. However as soon as I try to shred the relevant folder on the TM backup drive it reports an error "Volume/xxx/xx.xx couldn't be removed due to an unknown error" ... I've even granted the App full disk access in case that might have been the cause but still I get the same error.. Does anyone know why it won't delete?

Furthermore, I've read that if you manually delete anything from one of your TM backups it can ruin the integrity of the whole TM backup system for existing or future backups.. Surely this isn't true? What also of my Thunderbird email backups in future incremental backups... Will deleting the mailbox folder that I'm currently targeting render it unsaveable in future TM backups because of this integrity issue??
 
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I've read that if you manually delete anything from one of your TM backups it can ruin the integrity of the whole TM backup
As far as I am aware this is correct.

Surely, if the removal of this data really is critical, can you not just reformat the drive and restart TM from scratch?
 
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As far as I am aware this is correct.

Surely, if the removal of this data really is critical, can you not just reformat the drive and restart TM from scratch?
I agree. Either erase the drive using Disk Utility, or go into Recover mode, initiate Disk Utility, and erase that way.
 
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Furthermore, I've read that if you manually delete anything from one of your TM backups it can ruin the integrity of the whole TM backup system for existing or future backups.. Surely this isn't true? What also of my Thunderbird email backups in future incremental backups... Will deleting the mailbox folder that I'm currently targeting render it unsaveable in future TM backups because of this integrity issue??
As said, it is true. What looks like files are actually just links to files, not the files themselves. So, when you erase a "file" you just broke the chain of links and the backup integrity is destroyed. All will be lost.
 
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I think I understand now why some people swear by Carbon clone copy and the third party apps. They permit deletion which TM effectively doesn't without destroying the entire contents of the drive which isn't an option in my case as I have tons of vitally important personal info on there of my own from the last few years.

How can I retain the data from the existing TM backup but delete those few crucial bits of data that I need securely wiped? My first thought is to copy the contents of the existing TM drive (entirely) to a new external HDD before then formatting (disk erase) my existing TM drive and copying everything back to it except for the files I want deleted... Is this a reliable way that I can retain my original data but delete the sensitive stuff I need deleted?? When I try to securely delete the copied TM data that was moved to the second external HDD will I still encounter that same error that prevented deleting it from my existing TM backup drive? Or is there something about the original TM drive being a "designated" TM backup drive that has put those data deletion blocks in place that I won't encounter by moving the TM data to a non TM drive so I can delete it securely?

Would I even be able to continue using the newly erased external HDD as my ongoing TM backup using the existing space left on it?
 
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How can I retain the data from the existing TM backup but delete those few crucial bits of data that I need securely wiped? My first thought is to copy the contents of the existing TM drive (entirely) to a new external HDD before then formatting (disk erase) my existing TM drive and copying everything back to it except for the files I want deleted... Is this a reliable way that I can retain my original data but delete the sensitive stuff I need deleted?? When I try to securely delete the copied TM data that was moved to the second external HDD will I still encounter that same error that prevented deleting it from my existing TM backup drive? Or is there something about the original TM drive being a "designated" TM backup drive that has put those data deletion blocks in place that I won't encounter by moving the TM data to a non TM drive so I can delete it securely?
They aren't files. You cannot treat them as files. Imagine a basket full of chains. At one end is a link named NOW, and at the other end is ORIGINAL. Between them is a chain, going from Original to version 2 to version 3 to version 4 to....to now. If there is no change, it's a chain of simple links, but occasionally in the chain you get to a full document that was changed from the previous version, so got saved completely. It has links to the previous version, one link at at a time. To get to the original, the system pulls on the chain link-by-link until the original appears, passing all the versions on the way. But the basket has thousands of chains, all tangled together. Break one chain by touching a link and the entire basket of links can fall apart. That's what you are facing. Every time TM made a backup it added a link to the chain. That is the magic of TM, how it can keep years worth of backups and not consume huge storage. Unchanged things get a small link, changed things get a big blob and links going both ways. But the tradeoff is you cannot muck about with the links, it has to be done through TM. You can delete an entire backup, inside TM, but you cannot delete a single FILE in the backup stack. And just to make it more interesting, if a Folder has no changes to any files in it, TM creates a link for the entire Folder, not for the files in it. So, you might chase a chain down link by link for a file, but if it is in a Folder where nothing happens for a few iterations of backup, the link changes from the file to the folder.

You cannot copy everything BUT something from the chains. That is the same a erasing them and breaking the chain. It is simply impossible.

You ask, can you delete the sensitive stuff but keep everything else? Not if you want history. If you don't care about history, just wipe the drive and start over, or better yet, destroy the drive. Or you can delete an entire backup from the middle from inside TM to erase that entire day. TM will rebuild links to cover the gap when you tell it to delete that backup. But if you want to delete ONE file, you cannot do it. TM doesn't have that capability, and if you try to break the chain, you could lose the entire backup (it's a database of chains and will lose integrity). Similarly, you can't really copy all BUT something, same integrity issue. Deleting anything with Finder will definitely destroy the backup. Finder can't rebuild TM links.

Here is the dilemma. There is something you can try, but it might break the database of TM and you lose everything. And I don't know if it will work, or even if it can be done. Before you consider it, you need to ask yourself "Is the risk of that loss of all the "tons of vitally important personal info on there of my own from the last few years" less than the risk of keeping the sensitive data?"

If it's more important to delete the sensitive data than the risk to the "vitally important" data, you can use Finder to go through the backups, starting with the most recent one by date and working ONLY backward through the backups to delete the links to the file, one by one. So, for example, if you erased one of the sensitive files last week, you start with today, then yesterday, then the previous day. When the offending file appears in the backup, you delete it. Then the day before, and before that, back to when the file disappears from the backup because you are now before the creation date. But you have to start from the "newest" version. You have to go backward because that will be trimming off the most recent link only, and not chopping the chain in the middle, losing integrity. And you have to go in sequence, one at a time, to try to avoid loss of integrity. And you have to never have a Folder link instead of a file link, because if you delete the folder link, you break all the chains of all the items in the folder, destroying the database integrity. And there is no way to know which is which from Finder. So, it's a very, very, risky way to go.

Personally, I wouldn't do it, it's too risky, but only you can make the decision of what is more important to you, the "vital" data or this "Sensitive" data. If you try this, just be prepared for the fallout if the entire backup goes awry. Don't say I didn't warn you. Don't open TM in the middle of the process to 'check on how it's going.' The first thing TM does is an integrity check and if it sees what you have done, it will declare the backup unusable and everything will be gone. It could very well do that once you finish, too, which is the risk in doing it. You also mentioned mail in the first post, so if what you want to delete is a mail message, be aware that you don't know how they are stored in Thunderbird and deleting something from the outside may well destroy the integrity of the Thunderbird data as well. So even if TM lets you do this, TB may well not. But maybe I misunderstood the reference to Thunderbird. If TB works the way most emails work, the message header may be in multiple locations, the body of text in another and any attachments (including images as part of headers/footers/signatures) in yet another, linked in a database so that TB can glue them together again for you to view. So, to delete a mail message you would need to know the database reference for it, the header, the addresses, and any and all attachments. And you would have to delete it in such a way that the database for TB is refreshed to not show that it has lost integrity.

BTW, you should be aware that if what these sensitive files are are, in fact, emails, the email provider has copies on their servers, no matter what you do. And the sender/receiver(s) of these emails may well have copies, both in their mail system and in any backups they may have made. So, that's another factor to consider.

I RECOMMEND YOU DO NOT DO IT.

But it's up to you. Only you know why this sensitive data is sensitive. Frankly, if these sensitive files are that critical, I'd destroy the drive and start over, vital data or not. Or I'd try to recover the vital data, then destroy the drive. The risk there is that you miss some vital files and don't realize it until after the drive is destroyed. And by "destroy" I mean disassemble the drive, remove the platters and shatter each one with a hammer. Finder can read the links and get to the real files for the vital data, so you could use it to find the vital data, copy it and paste it to a safe location, one by one. The same dilemma faces you in this scenario for the Thunderbird email, you would have to find a way to find all the parts of the vital messages and reassemble them to recover to a safe location.

One other think you could try is encrypting the backup or encrypting the whole TM drive. I don't know if you can encrypt the backup after the fact, but you can research that. Then put a ridiculously hard to guess password on it and only YOU can get to it. The data isn't erased, but pretty unreadable to all but the really serious agents (think intelligence forces for that). Nothing is perfectly secure, except maybe the hammer approach.
 

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I'd like to point out something to you regarding Time Machine. Time Machine was never meant to be a data archive or data/file storage repository.

We have run across users who keep TM backups for years on end. You may think this is a good way to store data (in your case sensitive data) but how useful is any data as it gets older and older? And you can see that by messing with the TM links (data base) in any way will compromise the entire backup or sets of backups.

Jake has rightly pointed out that you shouldn't do what you suggested. As a matter of fact, I second what he recommended and that is to destroy the backup(s) and/or the entire drive.
 
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They aren't files. You cannot treat them as files. Imagine a basket full of chains. At one end is a link named NOW, and at the other end is ORIGINAL. Between them is a chain, going from Original to version 2 to version 3 to version 4 to....to now. If there is no change, it's a chain of simple links, but occasionally in the chain you get to a full document that was changed from the previous version, so got saved completely. It has links to the previous version, one link at at a time. To get to the original, the system pulls on the chain link-by-link until the original appears, passing all the versions on the way. But the basket has thousands of chains, all tangled together. Break one chain by touching a link and the entire basket of links can fall apart. That's what you are facing. Every time TM made a backup it added a link to the chain. That is the magic of TM, how it can keep years worth of backups and not consume huge storage. Unchanged things get a small link, changed things get a big blob and links going both ways. But the tradeoff is you cannot muck about with the links, it has to be done through TM. You can delete an entire backup, inside TM, but you cannot delete a single FILE in the backup stack. And just to make it more interesting, if a Folder has no changes to any files in it, TM creates a link for the entire Folder, not for the files in it. So, you might chase a chain down link by link for a file, but if it is in a Folder where nothing happens for a few iterations of backup, the link changes from the file to the folder.

You cannot copy everything BUT something from the chains. That is the same a erasing them and breaking the chain. It is simply impossible.

You ask, can you delete the sensitive stuff but keep everything else? Not if you want history. If you don't care about history, just wipe the drive and start over, or better yet, destroy the drive. Or you can delete an entire backup from the middle from inside TM to erase that entire day. TM will rebuild links to cover the gap when you tell it to delete that backup. But if you want to delete ONE file, you cannot do it. TM doesn't have that capability, and if you try to break the chain, you could lose the entire backup (it's a database of chains and will lose integrity). Similarly, you can't really copy all BUT something, same integrity issue. Deleting anything with Finder will definitely destroy the backup. Finder can't rebuild TM links.

Here is the dilemma. There is something you can try, but it might break the database of TM and you lose everything. And I don't know if it will work, or even if it can be done. Before you consider it, you need to ask yourself "Is the risk of that loss of all the "tons of vitally important personal info on there of my own from the last few years" less than the risk of keeping the sensitive data?"

If it's more important to delete the sensitive data than the risk to the "vitally important" data, you can use Finder to go through the backups, starting with the most recent one by date and working ONLY backward through the backups to delete the links to the file, one by one. So, for example, if you erased one of the sensitive files last week, you start with today, then yesterday, then the previous day. When the offending file appears in the backup, you delete it. Then the day before, and before that, back to when the file disappears from the backup because you are now before the creation date. But you have to start from the "newest" version. You have to go backward because that will be trimming off the most recent link only, and not chopping the chain in the middle, losing integrity. And you have to go in sequence, one at a time, to try to avoid loss of integrity. And you have to never have a Folder link instead of a file link, because if you delete the folder link, you break all the chains of all the items in the folder, destroying the database integrity. And there is no way to know which is which from Finder. So, it's a very, very, risky way to go.

Personally, I wouldn't do it, it's too risky, but only you can make the decision of what is more important to you, the "vital" data or this "Sensitive" data. If you try this, just be prepared for the fallout if the entire backup goes awry. Don't say I didn't warn you. Don't open TM in the middle of the process to 'check on how it's going.' The first thing TM does is an integrity check and if it sees what you have done, it will declare the backup unusable and everything will be gone. It could very well do that once you finish, too, which is the risk in doing it. You also mentioned mail in the first post, so if what you want to delete is a mail message, be aware that you don't know how they are stored in Thunderbird and deleting something from the outside may well destroy the integrity of the Thunderbird data as well. So even if TM lets you do this, TB may well not. But maybe I misunderstood the reference to Thunderbird. If TB works the way most emails work, the message header may be in multiple locations, the body of text in another and any attachments (including images as part of headers/footers/signatures) in yet another, linked in a database so that TB can glue them together again for you to view. So, to delete a mail message you would need to know the database reference for it, the header, the addresses, and any and all attachments. And you would have to delete it in such a way that the database for TB is refreshed to not show that it has lost integrity.

BTW, you should be aware that if what these sensitive files are are, in fact, emails, the email provider has copies on their servers, no matter what you do. And the sender/receiver(s) of these emails may well have copies, both in their mail system and in any backups they may have made. So, that's another factor to consider.

I RECOMMEND YOU DO NOT DO IT.

But it's up to you. Only you know why this sensitive data is sensitive. Frankly, if these sensitive files are that critical, I'd destroy the drive and start over, vital data or not. Or I'd try to recover the vital data, then destroy the drive. The risk there is that you miss some vital files and don't realize it until after the drive is destroyed. And by "destroy" I mean disassemble the drive, remove the platters and shatter each one with a hammer. Finder can read the links and get to the real files for the vital data, so you could use it to find the vital data, copy it and paste it to a safe location, one by one. The same dilemma faces you in this scenario for the Thunderbird email, you would have to find a way to find all the parts of the vital messages and reassemble them to recover to a safe location.

One other think you could try is encrypting the backup or encrypting the whole TM drive. I don't know if you can encrypt the backup after the fact, but you can research that. Then put a ridiculously hard to guess password on it and only YOU can get to it. The data isn't erased, but pretty unreadable to all but the really serious agents (think intelligence forces for that). Nothing is perfectly secure, except maybe the hammer approach.
I'm inclined to agree - it makes little sense to go fluffing around with trying to delete a specific folder within the TM drive and expecting it to still work as a TM drive. That's why I'm asking about simply copying the data (using Finder) to a new external drive, purely as the data, and not necessarily with the expectation that I can use it as a new TM drive. I should have clarified that my final paragraph in my previous msg was more of an optional extra in case I could also have the benefit of then going onto use the remaining space on the copied to drive as part of a new TM backup drive. I've found that in the past, for example, theres been folders or files that I wanted to retrieve from a TM backup, and I've successfully been able to do so by simply going into finder, navigating to the relevant dated backup under the BackupDB folder, and copying it to my Osx drive... as pure data (not something that needs to necessarily be copied elsewhere to function in a TM capacity)...
 

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"I have tons of vitally important personal info on there of my own from the last few years."

Time Machine (TM) is not an archive and should not be used to store unique data not stored elsewhere.

TM is an incremental backup system ideally intended for restoring damaged or accidentally deleted files or transferring (restoring) user data to a new computer or HD as part of the setup proceedure. Something that as a free native app it does very well.

In my opinion TM is too unstable to be a long term storage system, I use an External HDD for the purpose and erase and reformat this TM backup pretty much every year.
I also have a Carbon Copy Cloner backup, I beleive one backup is simply not sufficient and if I were to have only one it would be a clone on an external SSD.
 
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In my opinion TM is too unstable to be a long term storage system, I use an External HDD for the purpose and erase and reformat this TM backup pretty much every year.
I would disagree about the stability of TM, but do agree it's not intended as a long-term storage archive. TM has been improved significantly over time. The latest version, for example, stores the backups as snapshots, so you can boot directly from the snapshot if needs be.
 
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That's why I'm asking about simply copying the data (using Finder) to a new external drive, purely as the data, and not necessarily with the expectation that I can use it as a new TM drive.
You can, as I said, copy from TM backups with Finder, but it is no longer a TM backup file at that point. Finder will follow the chain of links to get to the actual file and copy that. So you can rescue the important data you say are in the backup that way. But you cannot copy the entire backup, minus the sensitive things, because Finder won't copy links, just the files to which they lead. So, let's say you have a 1TB backup drive with 30 backups of a drive that has 500GB on it. TM fits 30 backups of 500 GB in 1TB using the links, as I described. But if you try to copy the drive, all 30 backups will be expanded by Finder to the 500 GB, so you would need a target with at least 15TB, maybe more, and it would take forever to copy because Finder would be following chains to find the files before it can copy them. And at the end you have 30 sets of files, not a TM backup of them. And you haven't erased anything from the TM backups at all!
I could also have the benefit of then going onto use the remaining space on the copied to drive as part of a new TM backup drive.
You might be able to do that. But TM doesn't like to share a drive with other data. In fact, in Monterey, TM seems to format the drive as part of the initialization. It definitely changes it from APFS to APFS (Case sensitive). And that alone might cause you some issues later on. I don't know if it erases what's there or not, I've always used empty drives for TM. But as I said, be aware that Finder cannot copy a TM backup as a backup, so you'll be starting all over from zero.

Bottom line: There are no shortcuts. If you have things you don't want to lose stored in TM, you will need to get them out before you destroy the drive. There is no other way to accomplish what you want done to the sensitive data.
I need the data properly destroyed so that if someone were able to access the drive, they couldn't recover this data even with third party data recovery tools
The only way to accomplish that is to destroy the drive beyond recovery, as I said, with a hammer to the disks inside the drive.
 
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From my experience, mess with TM at your peril. If you don’t use another backup app, such as Carbon Copy Cloner, at least frequently copy important folders and files to a separate external drive (NOT the TM drive) and keep a bootable macOS installer on, say, a USB stick.
 

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Maybe unstable was the wrong word Jake. What I meant was that it keeps changing. From my point of view for that reason, at least in the last few years, keeping a TM backup beyond the next macOS upgrade is unwise and should be unnecessary unless it's used as an archive.
The Tima Machine we use in Monterey is not the same as the Time Machine we used in Catalina.
 

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From my experience, mess with TM at your peril. If you don’t use another backup app, such as Carbon Copy Cloner, at least frequently copy important folders and files to a separate external drive (NOT the TM drive) and keep a bootable macOS installer on, say, a USB stick.
I use exactly the same setup you suggest right down to the bootable installer on a USB thumb drive. Combined they have been a very successful backup strategy. The M1 will change all that but for Intel it's been perfect for me.
 
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Maybe unstable was the wrong word Jake. What I meant was that it keeps changing. From my point of view for that reason, at least in the last few years, keeping a TM backup beyond the next macOS upgrade is unwise and should be unnecessary unless it's used as an archive.
Yep, I would agree with that. I kept old TM backups, but always started a new on when the OS upgraded. Then after a while I'd delete the old backup because the chances of needing it were very small.
The Tima Machine we use in Monterey is not the same as the Time Machine we used in Catalina.
It is. And I think it's better. I like the snapshot approach.

The M1 will change all that but for Intel it's been perfect for me.
Exactly! The M1 SoC changes just about everything about backup strategy. I no longer have a bootable installer. TM can be used to boot to the snapshots. Reinstalling the OS is built into the chipset. The need to back up the core system files is gone.

EDIT: Let me correct and clarify something. The snapshots aren't intended to boot, but they can be mounted as devices on the Mac. So, if you need to restore from last week, mount the snapshot from last week, use Finder to get the file you need and then unmount the snapshot. Makes a lot of sense to me to do it that way. Of course, you can still do the old "Enter Time Machine" to scroll through the backups and restore, but if you already know the day/time you want to restore, you can go directly there by mounting the snapshot.
 

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I did think the snapshot feature was introduced in Big Sur. So maybe that was just when I became aware of it.🤭
 

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The Time Machine we use in Monterey is not the same as the Time Machine we used in Catalina.

It is. And I think it's better. I like the snapshot approach.

Actually there is a change and there may be more: One change I discovered is that the current version of TM in Monterey no longer backs up Mail or Mail folders whereas in Catalina it did so.

I found that out during a test of restoring data from various TM backups that I have. I kept wondering why Mail no longer showed up in any of my backups even when opening the Mail app and invoking TM. That used to work quite well and was recommended.

You can try that for yourself by using one of your latest TM backups to see if Mail shows up.

Thank goodness that both CCC and SD! continue to backup mail.

More info: Read thru this entire thread from the Apple Support Communities

 
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Actually there is a change and there may be more: One change I discovered is that the current version of TM in Monterey no longer backs up Mail or Mail folders whereas in Catalina it did so.
Not really true. It does back up the files in ~/Library/Mail/V as it always has. I opened two Finder windows side by side and looked at what is on my internal drive and what is on one of the snapshots I explored. Same on both. So it's wrong to say it doesn't back up Mail. It does.

What does seem to be different is that you can't restore one email message the way you could before. If you have Mail open and enter Time Machine, it switches now to Finder on the Desktop, not in Mail. So that is a change. You can restore the ENTIRE V folder from a backup, but not any particular message in Mail.
 
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Thank goodness that both CCC and SD! continue to backup mail.
I did some exploring. I don't know when it was added, or how long it's been there but under Mail/Preferences/Accounts there is a "Mailbox Behaviors" tab that has a Trash Mailbox option to store deleted messages in the Archive for periods from "Never" to "One Month" and then deleting them. So you can recover an email you deleted for up to a month in the app Archive folders. Combine that with the ability to restore the mail files back even further in TM and you're covered reasonably well, I think. I've never had to restore an email from more than a few days, so I'm ok with the way it is now. YMMV.
 

chscag

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Very confusing. And which V folder is the one to backup? With a CCC backup I could easily see that the V9 folder is where all my mail folders and their labels are located and be able to restore them one by one or all at the same time.

Yes TM somewhat backs up mail (but not the way it did before) and makes it much more difficult to restore individual folders or mail messages. Most users are not going to understand this and wind up losing mail.

The mailbox behaviors you mentioned above has been around for awhile. The same thing can be accomplished by leaving mail you deleted locally to remain on the server. Gmail keeps them for 30 days before trashing them for good. (Limit up to 15GB)
 

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