Should I wait?

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Closerframe
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I agree with you that it was possible for Apple to incorporate mms into the 1st gen iPhone and have always considered it a mistake on Apples part to under estimate the importance of such a basic feature. I believe they based this discussion on the iPhone being so advance with internet features they just assumed that the ability to email those same photos would be the choice of the future so....

But even thou I agree with you on this point I really do belive that you have missed the mark on the rest of your argument about being left behind by a company when it is simply not the case. You just cant expect apple or anyone to offer the latest support for every product in its line up. At some point you just have to let the older technology fade and move on. Lets not for get that when the iPhone 3g was released it suffered from the same lack of mms that the 1st iPhone did. But it had the hardware to keep moving.

And I dont feel that anyone was jumping on your back , but having a spirited debate on an issue that in my opinion you just were not prepared for . Dont stop voicing your opinions just be ready for them to not always be the opinion of every one here . Thats not a bad thing .
Take care and I hope you enjoy the iPad that started this whole thing

Respectfully
Clay

I spent $400 on the iPhone. I think that's what's really getting me angry about the entire thing of feeling "left behind".

p.s. And Jeez...let's at least wait until the iPad 1.0 is available for sale to see what it's true positives & drawbacks are before worrying about iPad 2.0!;)

Like I do with almost all things I do before I buy them, I look over the pros and cons. I noticed that the iPad doesn't offer the best online experience, simply because it doesn't have flash videos. Something I most likely will need when I'm surfing the web for class, but it does offer something great for such a compact size. I could easily take notes, and create beautiful powerpoints within minutes.

I'll see how the iPad unfolds over the next year, and if I know Apple, than I can expect to see an iPad 2.0 next year. Possibly cheaper, and featuring additional features that may make it even better. (Camera)
 
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chas_m

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When the very first iPhone was released, I picked it up, and than a year later, a cheaper and better iPhone came out.

You're being a little revisionist, I think. Yes, 13 months after the original release, a better one came out.

However, is this statement not broadly true of almost all computer-centric devices?

Not only did the original buyers get a device that continues to be useful (I still use mine every day), they got a $100 rebate on it. Oh, AND they got bragging rights and the ability to use this incredible device for over a year longer than anyone else. I found that to be quite valuable myself.

Although the 3G/3GS models are cheaper in terms of hardware, they require more lock-in and pretty much NEED 3G data to fulfill their potential, so it could be argued that in terms of TCO they are actually more expensive than the original models. :)

My plan is to get a pretty basic model iPad, and use it to make money (and yes, I will make money with it), then later on sell it and buy a revised model when one appears. I have a feeling -- just a hunch, I freely admit -- that the "iPad 2" will be a longer time coming than just a year.
 
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chas_m

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I noticed that the iPad doesn't offer the best online experience, simply because it doesn't have flash videos.

To me, that's a HUGE plus.

Flash is so unbelievably annoying that I was *forced* to install ClickToFlash on all my computers so that I could get back to speedy, stable browsing. The developers of Mobile Firefox have similarly stripped out Flash because (their words) it "degrades the browser to an unacceptable level of performance."

With YouTube now offering their entire portfolio of videos in (optional) non-Flash format, I see no disadvantage to "no Flash on iPhone/iPad/etc)" other than all those annoying ads I'm not seeing. If that's your idea of "left behind," please spare me from the Rapture!! :)
 
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I agree. No flash and no camera on the ipad is a huge (read: Godsent) plus for the ipad. If I had to put up with flash ads or a battery draining camera on the ipad, well those two things would definantly turn me away from the ipad. If they were there.
 
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To me, that's a HUGE plus.

Flash is so unbelievably annoying that I was *forced* to install ClickToFlash on all my computers so that I could get back to speedy, stable browsing. The developers of Mobile Firefox have similarly stripped out Flash because (their words) it "degrades the browser to an unacceptable level of performance."

With YouTube now offering their entire portfolio of videos in (optional) non-Flash format, I see no disadvantage to "no Flash on iPhone/iPad/etc)" other than all those annoying ads I'm not seeing. If that's your idea of "left behind," please spare me from the Rapture!! :)

I agree. No flash and no camera on the ipad is a huge (read: Godsent) plus for the ipad. If I had to put up with flash ads or a battery draining camera on the ipad, well those two things would definantly turn me away from the ipad. If they were there.

But without flash how is a person suppose to watch videos on non-quicktime supported websites. And without a camera it completely neglects the possibility of having video chats. The battery wouldn't be drained if neither are in use, plus you're acting like the battery would not be killed if you're watching a quicktime video, or having multiple apps.

Even during the iPad commercial when the person visits a newspaper website you can see the safari error box where a video is suppose to be. I'm just saying, you can't call something the "ultimate internet browser" if you can't even watch videos that aren't quicktime or youtube.
 
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It's called html5. It when it's completed will work totally without flash so I hear.
And yes watching video drains battery power. Heck even turning the thing on drains battery power. It's just my opinion that I like it how it is without the flash and camera. I know it's a heated topic and many people want those 2 things and many don't.

And the ipad was not designed for video chats. Well you can have a device that does everything. Like a Jack of all trades and a master of none. Or you can have a device that does a few things only but does those few things really really well.

And I think we all know which one Apple went for with the ipad.
 
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But without flash how is a person suppose to watch videos on non-quicktime supported websites. And without a camera it completely neglects the possibility of having video chats. The battery wouldn't be drained if neither are in use, plus you're acting like the battery would not be killed if you're watching a quicktime video, or having multiple apps.

Even during the iPad commercial when the person visits a newspaper website you can see the safari error box where a video is suppose to be. I'm just saying, you can't call something the "ultimate internet browser" if you can't even watch videos that aren't quicktime or youtube.

Just my opinion but if sites really want me to browse then they will offer their content with a non flash format. There are sites that understand that flash will fall by the wayside and are being proactive in the implementation of other formats. With the popularity of the iPhone and soon the iPad many more will soon follow suit. Even Hulu(at least rumored to be ) is working on there product for the iPad so....

Clay
 

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Just my opinion but if sites really want me to browse then they will offer their content with a non flash format. There are sites that understand that flash will fall by the wayside and are being proactive in the implementation of other formats. With the popularity of the iPhone and soon the iPad many more will soon follow suit. Even Hulu(at least rumored to be ) is working on there product for the iPad so....

Clay

It's unfortunate, but Flash isn't going anywhere anytime soon - with or without the iPhone OS, it's going to be fairly pervasive for quite some time.

As I said before, you can push standards when you're the dominant player. Apple isn't there yet. The public perception of this won't be that Flash is an inferior technology, it's going to be "the iPhone/iPad can't do this", and in the end will only serve to tarnish Apple.

Now, you know my opinions of Flash - it's bloated and performs horribly. But so many different platforms support it, and because of the fact that it has DRM qualities that appeal to content producers, it's going to be a necessary evil.
 
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Oh I agree that it will take a long while to get rid of flash altogether. But at the same time I am pleased with Apple not buckling to it. We all know the Adobe is just as lazy as steve said. The program was written for and optimized for windows and no attention has ever been given to OS X . Before my extended use of the iPhone I wouldn't have thought it possible to live without flash...now I have weened myself from it and will try hard to not go back.
Now Ill be honest I use ClickToFlash which will allow me to cheat when I just have to see what is there. But thats why I have a Macbook. Ill not miss it on my iPad.

Clay
 
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chas_m

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But without flash how is a person suppose to watch videos on non-quicktime supported websites.

I believe I already addressed this at least once, but here it is again: some of the major providers of flash-based video also provide alternatives to non-flash-capable browsers. You have a YouTube app on your own 2G iPhone, for feck's sake, and you claim not to know of any alternative??

YouTube (and others) are starting to try out HTML5 as a much simpler, less processor-intensive, less-buggy way of delivering video clips. And guess what? It works very well! I doubt it will "kill" Flash, but it will probably do a pretty good job of eliminating the numerous, cross-platform, universally-complained about problems with Flash-as-video-deliery-tool.

And without a camera it completely neglects the possibility of having video chats.

Yes. That's true.

In part I think this comes down to a few different factors:

a. iChat, much as I love it, is neither widely used nor widely accepted. So the camera would primarily be helping Skype, *an iChat competitor.* Really, one doesn't have to be too much of a rocket scientist to work this one out.

b. AT&T is flatly NOT going to let a high-quality video chat program that millions of people would start using immediately bring down their network. NA GA HA PEN. The bandwidth just ain't there yet. Maybe in a year or two.

c. Hard to figure out how to add both the raw hardware of a video camera AND the necessity of then rewriting iChat (for Mac *and Windows*) without that adding to the cost. They got a mic in there, and frankly most people much prefer audio chatting to video chatting anyway (grandparents excepted). :)

and finally

d. Apple is big on the quality of the experience. iChat is (frankly) not up to snuff given the demands created if the previous three objections are overcome. Bad video-conferencing quality is actually WORSE for Apple than *no* video-conferencing ability.

The battery wouldn't be drained if neither are in use, plus you're acting like the battery would not be killed if you're watching a quicktime video

Actually, it's not. Again, you can refer back to your very own 2G iPhone (or all subsequent iPhones/Touches) to confirm this. They all have a chipset that 'offloads" the specialised work of decoding h.264 (which is why Apple prefers it), meaning its much less of a drain than Flash would be (... and guess who has never bothered to include hardware acceleration in Flash for Apple products?). This is why I can watch two full-length movies on my original iPhone and still have more than enough for calls I'll need to make, etc when I get off the plane.

Even during the iPad commercial when the person visits a newspaper website you can see the safari error box where a video is suppose to be.

Look again -- I think you will see that that was supposed to be an ad. Please refer to my previous post for my opinion of Flash ads.

I'm just saying, you can't call something the "ultimate internet browser" if you can't even watch videos that aren't quicktime or youtube.

You're misquoting them. They called it "the BEST internet browsing experience," not the ultimate internet browser. Big difference there.

And while I can't be sure till I get one in my hands, yes I think they're speaking truthfully there. Not being able to see Flash (which is MOSTLY used for ads or incredibly juvenile video sites) is a small price to pay for being able to "touch the internet" ie navigate it in a very naturalistic way.

PS. One more thing -- you've repeatedly referred to the 2G iPhone as crappy or a crap product, and this is just nonsenical malarkey. When pressed, you admit that your opinion is based on its "so called" inability to do MMS (which I could easily disprove, but I digress). This may shock you, but some of us grown-ups out here don't have much use for MMS, and are just as glad to be free of it as have it. It's certainly not a crucial part of the phone life of anyone who has mentally progressed beyond high school.

I continue to run the latest software (which you've repeatedly implied can't be done) and almost all of the latest apps on my original iPhone. Yes, I can do video -- there's an app for that. Yes, I can do MMS if I care to pay for a plan that supports it -- there's an app for that. I *do* miss out on apps that rely on the 3GS' compass or the 3G's true GPS. But nearly every one of the thousands of other apps available on the App Store run on my iPhone.

(and as for GPS, I drove cross-country using only Google Maps and in my seven-week tour, I missed exactly ONE turn. GPS is hugely overrated IMHO).

So, at least for me, I continue to get tremendous value out of my 2.5 year old iPhone and don't expect that to end anytime soon. Maybe when the 4th-gen cell networks really roll out, I'll reconsider. Till then, I'll be doing pretty much the same things with my devices that you're doing with yours -- only not spending as much money.
 
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I believe I already addressed this at least once, but here it is again: some of the major providers of flash-based video also provide alternatives to non-flash-capable browsers. You have a YouTube app on your own 2G iPhone, for feck's sake, and you claim not to know of any alternative??

YouTube (and others) are starting to try out HTML5 as a much simpler, less processor-intensive, less-buggy way of delivering video clips. And guess what? It works very well! I doubt it will "kill" Flash, but it will probably do a pretty good job of eliminating the numerous, cross-platform, universally-complained about problems with Flash-as-video-deliery-tool.

So you're telling me that if a website, say New York Times, has a video that is singly flash based, that I'm suppose to just go to YouTube and look for the video?



Yes. That's true.

In part I think this comes down to a few different factors:

a. iChat, much as I love it, is neither widely used nor widely accepted. So the camera would primarily be helping Skype, *an iChat competitor.* Really, one doesn't have to be too much of a rocket scientist to work this one out.

b. AT&T is flatly NOT going to let a high-quality video chat program that millions of people would start using immediately bring down their network. NA GA HA PEN. The bandwidth just ain't there yet. Maybe in a year or two.

c. Hard to figure out how to add both the raw hardware of a video camera AND the necessity of then rewriting iChat (for Mac *and Windows*) without that adding to the cost. They got a mic in there, and frankly most people much prefer audio chatting to video chatting anyway (grandparents excepted). :)

and finally

d. Apple is big on the quality of the experience. iChat is (frankly) not up to snuff given the demands created if the previous three objections are overcome. Bad video-conferencing quality is actually WORSE for Apple than *no* video-conferencing ability.

I'm not referring to iChat or something provided by At&t. I'm talking about something like Skype of AIM. Both are already applications on the iPhone/iPod Touch, so it would be nice to feature a camera that you can easily use.

Actually, it's not. Again, you can refer back to your very own 2G iPhone (or all subsequent iPhones/Touches) to confirm this. They all have a chipset that 'offloads" the specialised work of decoding h.264 (which is why Apple prefers it), meaning its much less of a drain than Flash would be (... and guess who has never bothered to include hardware acceleration in Flash for Apple products?). This is why I can watch two full-length movies on my original iPhone and still have more than enough for calls I'll need to make, etc when I get off the plane.

With not getting too much into detail it can be noted that the iPhone battery on the original 2G is pretty bad. Not being able to last more than 6 hrs. with the lowest brightness, and in standby mode. I'm a big texter, but I couldn't even get it through an entire day on one charge.



You're misquoting them. They called it "the BEST internet browsing experience," not the ultimate internet browser. Big difference there.

And while I can't be sure till I get one in my hands, yes I think they're speaking truthfully there. Not being able to see Flash (which is MOSTLY used for ads or incredibly juvenile video sites) is a small price to pay for being able to "touch the internet" ie navigate it in a very naturalistic way.

PS. One more thing -- you've repeatedly referred to the 2G iPhone as crappy or a crap product, and this is just nonsenical malarkey. When pressed, you admit that your opinion is based on its "so called" inability to do MMS (which I could easily disprove, but I digress). This may shock you, but some of us grown-ups out here don't have much use for MMS, and are just as glad to be free of it as have it. It's certainly not a crucial part of the phone life of anyone who has mentally progressed beyond high school.

I continue to run the latest software (which you've repeatedly implied can't be done) and almost all of the latest apps on my original iPhone. Yes, I can do video -- there's an app for that. Yes, I can do MMS if I care to pay for a plan that supports it -- there's an app for that. I *do* miss out on apps that rely on the 3GS' compass or the 3G's true GPS. But nearly every one of the thousands of other apps available on the App Store run on my iPhone.

(and as for GPS, I drove cross-country using only Google Maps and in my seven-week tour, I missed exactly ONE turn. GPS is hugely overrated IMHO).

So, at least for me, I continue to get tremendous value out of my 2.5 year old iPhone and don't expect that to end anytime soon. Maybe when the 4th-gen cell networks really roll out, I'll reconsider. Till then, I'll be doing pretty much the same things with my devices that you're doing with yours -- only not spending as much money.

Steve Jobs said himself that the iPad is suppose to have a better internet browsing experience, and be more powerful than a smartphone, but with the support of non-flash videos that somewhat diminishes its value as an internet browser. And to just call Flash a "clunky" and/or "old" is just taking the attention off Apple for not offering the feature.

You label not having a "small" feature like flash as a small price to pay to being able to "touch the internet". Is that something seriously so revolutionary when HP along with LG are releasing a product like the iPad that offers the ability to watch both flash videos and quicktime videos?

I think the iPad is something revolutionary, but one can't deny the many faults the device faces.
 

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Don't know what you do with your iPhone. Both mine and my wife's first gen were lasting 3-5 days on a charge when they were 2 years old at which point I sold them for the same money the new 3GS cost me. So, basically got a free upgrade from my 2 year old phones.

Maybe it's time to check into a battery replacement for yours. Or better yet - sell it and get the 3GS. Bet you can get the same money for your 1st gen as what the 3rd gen will cost you, same as I did. First piece of electronics I've ever been able to do that with.
 
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Don't know what you do with your iPhone. Both mine and my wife's first gen were lasting 3-5 days on a charge when they were 2 years old at which point I sold them for the same money the new 3GS cost me. So, basically got a free upgrade from my 2 year old phones.

Maybe it's time to check into a battery replacement for yours. Or better yet - sell it and get the 3GS. Bet you can get the same money for your 1st gen as what the 3rd gen will cost you, same as I did. First piece of electronics I've ever been able to do that with.

Than I'd be subjected to paying $30 a month for a data plan I don't even want. Unless, I bought a jailbroken one. And its hard for me to believe your iPhone lasted on a single charge for 3-5 days of usage.
 
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The iPad may certainly fill the role of travel companion for me. When I am travelling I like to watch a movie on the plane, maybe surf the web and check my email while waiting at the airport or sitting in my hotel room or on a train. I own a netbook, and yes I agree with Jobs when he says netbooks aren't great at doing anything. If I can watch a movie, listen to music, read books and study materials, surf the web, check my email and have something that is light and small the iPad is for me. The only thing I would like to see is more storage and some USB ports, as with the iPhone 3GS which I purchased lately, I think I may wait a couple of updates before buying, this time next year I should be able to get one with double the storage and maybe some new features too.
 
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Closerframe is clearly not getting the basics of business principle. No point in trying to teach him much.
 
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Closerframe does have a point with what he said. If you don't want a $30 a month fee then do not get an iphone. And the person he quoted didn't day how much he used the iphone in those 3-5 days. I suspect it would not have been much.

But what Closerframe said really does not relate at all to what he was quoting. Seriously selling a 1stG I phone for the same price as a 3rdG one is a good deal. Mind you the buyer must have been pretty gullable to pay that price. Personally I'd never pay 3rd gen prices for a 1st gen product. Because depreciation exists and it's not new anymore. Anyways if you can suck someone in to paying that price then good for you :)
 
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chas_m

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Closerframe does have a point with what he said. If you don't want a $30 a month fee then do not get an iphone. And the person he quoted didn't day how much he used the iphone in those 3-5 days. I suspect it would not have been much.

Define "much." Closerframe seems to continuously use his iPhone in a combination of ways, and if that's the case then yes, his battery would be prone not to last more than 6 hours.

I use mine as an iPod more or less all day, plus make and take a normal volume of phone calls, check email every now and again or surf a website to get some quick info (usually to settle a bet at the bar). That's my TYPICAL day-to-day use, and I find that I last all day and then some. If you don't use it as an iPod continuously, it can easily last 3-5 days doing what I described above.

Seriously selling a 1stG I phone for the same price as a 3rdG one is a good deal.

Here in Canada I could sell my 2G iPhone (which were never sold here) for a lot MORE than the base cost of the newer iPhones (not counting the contract). There are reasons for that, but they don't apply in the US so it's not worth discussing here.

As for closerframe's posts generally, I have to say he totally and regularly misquotes Jobs and Apple generally because he's imagining a device they didn't create. Let's just say that the next time I need a bunch of goalposts moved, I'd give him a call. On his original iPhone. :)
 
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Define "much." Closerframe seems to continuously use his iPhone in a combination of ways, and if that's the case then yes, his battery would be prone not to last more than 6 hours.

I use mine as an iPod more or less all day, plus make and take a normal volume of phone calls, check email every now and again or surf a website to get some quick info (usually to settle a bet at the bar). That's my TYPICAL day-to-day use, and I find that I last all day and then some. If you don't use it as an iPod continuously, it can easily last 3-5 days doing what I described above.

I use my iPhone for music as well, and for about 1 hr of talk time a day, and like I said, I'm a heavy texter, but I keep the screen brightness to a minimum, and make sure my wifi is turned off when I'm not using it.

Here in Canada I could sell my 2G iPhone (which were never sold here) for a lot MORE than the base cost of the newer iPhones (not counting the contract). There are reasons for that, but they don't apply in the US so it's not worth discussing here.

As for closerframe's posts generally, I have to say he totally and regularly misquotes Jobs and Apple generally because he's imagining a device they didn't create. Let's just say that the next time I need a bunch of goalposts moved, I'd give him a call. On his original iPhone. :)

Misquoting Jobs? He did in fact say that netbooks aren't good at anything. Adobe Flash is "lazy", and the iPad is the best device to surf the web on.
The device I imagined is not a pocketed sized Macbook, but a device that offers a true revolution. Sure, the iPad still has the potential to be something of that sort, but seriously no USB, camera, and a larger carrying capacity. People argue we have cameras on everything, so why need another one? Well if companies are pushing towards a device that makes your life easier, than wouldn't it be smart to make a device that features something as like a camera? Nintendo made the same argument about not supporting DVD or CD drives because there are already so many of them. I guarantee the next iPad model will feature a camera, and everyone who thought it was useless the first time around will embrace it. Apple is notorious for releasing a product that lacks basic features, and presents them in the next device like they're something new.
 
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I don't see how having a camera on the iPad would make life easier.
 
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Closerframe is clearly not getting the basics of business principle. No point in trying to teach him much.

I am more than aware of basic business principles thank you very much. A company should know their audience, knows what makes them different, manage cash flow, and manage customer expectations. If I were a person looking to buy an iPad and I already have both an iPhone, iPod, and Macbook or other labtop device, than why would I buy an iPad? Its something created to generate a wider audience who hadn't already embraced the iPhone or couldn't afford the Macbook.

I understand the concept of dishing out new and remodeled iPods every year because it will generate millions of dollars, and create a broader spectrum of customers. What I've said in my previous post is that I'm not aware of Apple's intentions with the iPhone. People keep telling me their sob story of how they sold off their old 2G and upgraded when the 3G came out, but what if everyone doesn't have the opportunity to do such a thing? Are they subjected to being left with a phone that misses basic features a Razr features, but exceeds in being an internet brower? It seems like people like to look more at the positives of the 2G more than its apparent negatives. I'd love to have a 3GS one day, but my dream was crushed once phone companies started charging $30.00 a month for a data plan.
 
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