iCloud versus iCloud Drive Confusion

[PGB1]

Hi All,
I am 100% new to iCloud, so please pardon my ignorance. I've studied here and every Apple article I can find, but I'm still confused.

When I turn on iCloud Drive in Settings, the desktop, documents and photos disappear from Finder. If the computer is offline (internet goes down often), I can't access these documents. I turned iCloud Drive off and the folders reappeared in Finder and are available when the internet is on strike.

I'm not interested in syncing to the cloud because I don't use a phone or iPad to work on documents. What I would like to do is to put some documents, some photos, the Contacts list and Calendar on iCloud so I can log in on my not-Apple phone via a web browser and view a document, a photo, the Contacts list and Calendar.

Is there a way to store such things on iCloud Drive, but leave them available on the computer's physical drive for when the internet is broken?
I assume that they won't sync automatically. Is there a way to sync manually and still leave them on the computer's drive? (For example, if I make changes to a Pages document or add some photos to my computer, make them show up in iCloud Drive- but still leave them available on the local hard drive?

Thanks for helping my brain understand this!
Paul

 

[Raz0rEdge]

iCloud is the cloud offering by Apple that can be used for a variety of services. For example, Notes, Pages, Photos, Calendar, etc. can use it to store things in the cloud and be accessible on other devices or on the web.

Desktop and Documents are special folders that can be backed up in iCloud. I would, however, caution you against putting this in in iCloud unless you intend to share the files across multiple devices (not your use case) since turning this on and off might result in you losing all of your files.

iCloud Drive (like Box, Dropbox, Google Drive) is a generic file storage mechanism that allows you to keep a copy of files in the cloud to be accessible everywhere. The way this works is that you keep a local copy of the file in the cloud. However, after some time, the local copy is removed to make space and can be downloaded again when you need it.

 

[MacBiter]

iCloud Drive (like Box, Dropbox, Google Drive) is a generic file storage mechanism that allows you to keep a copy of files in the cloud to be accessible everywhere. The way this works is that you keep a local copy of the file in the cloud. However, after some time, the local copy is removed to make space and can be downloaded again when you need it.

It depends how you use Dropbox - you can also use it to sync local data to the cloud but it also remains on your device.

 

[PGB1]

Thank You Ashwin for your explanation of how iCloud works and for the caution. Since I don't want to access computer files on another device, my best plan seems like to not use iCloud. I'd rather the files stay on the local hard drive. (And Time Machine and the Offsite Backup Application)

For iCloud Drive, it may come in handy if I want to have a document available when I'm away- assuming I remember to put the document there.

Thanks MacBiter for mentioning that DropBox can sync.

Thanks Again Guys!
Paul

 

[Jimmysb]

Thank You Ashwin for your explanation of how iCloud works and for the caution. Since I don't want to access computer files on another device, my best plan seems like to not use iCloud. I'd rather the files stay on the local hard drive. (And Time Machine and the Offsite Backup Application)

For iCloud Drive, it may come in handy if I want to have a document available when I'm away- assuming I remember to put the document there.

Thanks MacBiter for mentioning that DropBox can sync.

Thanks Again Guys!
Paul

I am a member of a couple of organisation, and use iCloud for one organisation and OneDrive for the other. iCloud where I need access via my iPad/iPhone during meetings and generally about, OneDrive where I need to ensure other people can gain access, because whether we like it or not more people have access to OneDrive than iCloud.

 

[Rod]

Sorry, but what you turned on is iCloud Drive Sync. Turning it off again will return the Desktop and Documents folders to the Finder sidebar but they will be empty.
Ensure in Finder Settings that iCloud Drive is displaying (ticked).



Select iCloud drive and you will find a Desktop and Documents folder within. Thats where all your files are now.

You can have iCloud Drive on without the above happening if you don't use Sync but, with Sync on the same contents will be available to all your devices eg. in the Files app on iPhone and iPad. Sync means any changes made to any file on any device will be mirrored on all devices.

There are advantages and disadvantages to both methods it's up to you to choose which works best for your needs.

If you want to return the system to the way it was;

So, this is basically just a drag an drop process. I will assume that iCloud Drive appears in the sidebar of the computer in question, if not make it so.

First you need to turn off sync Documents & Desktop Folders in System settings.

This as Apple explains recreates those folders in the Finder sidebar but they are empty.

Now open a second Finder window and in that window open iCloud Drive.

Locate either the Documents or Desktop Folder, you have to do this to both so let's say you open the Documents folder first.

Select all of the contents in that folder and drag them to the empty Documents folder in the first (local) Finder window, you may want to open it so you can see what's happening, it may take a little time, some of the files will be greyed out until they have downloaded.

Now your local Documents folder is populated with the contents of the Documents folder in iCloud Drive.

Now do the same thing for the Desktop folder.

Once that is done and it could take a little while because you may be downloading a lot of data, (I advise you compare the folders to ensure that all of the files in each of the Documents and Desktop folders are the same as the iCloud Drive versions), you can go ahead and delete the iCloud Drive versions of the Documents and Desktop folders or at least their contents.

 

[MacInWin]

Rod has given excellent directions. However, depending on the speed of your internet connection and how long and how much stuff has been moved to the cloud, you will need to wait between these two steps:

First you need to turn off sync Documents & Desktop Folders in System settings.

This as Apple explains recreates those folders in the Finder sidebar but they are empty.

Now open a second Finder window and in that window open iCloud Drive.

When you turn off the Optimize/sync in settings, what happens is that EVERYTHING that was in Documents and on the Desktop is copied back to your internal drive, in those two folders in iCloud Drive. That can take a while to complete, so let that finish before moving on to

Locate either the Documents or Desktop Folder, you have to do this to both so let's say you open the Documents folder first.

I can't tell you how to know that the process of downloading is complete as there are no messages or progress bars. You might open Activity Monitor and look at Network to see if a lot of data is being received, but that's about it. Just wait. Maybe even overnight.

And make sure your internal drive has sufficient space for all of that stuff, too, or it will fail when the drive gets full. And with a full drive, the Mac will get impossibly slow.

 

[PGB1]

Sorry, but what you turned on is iCloud Drive Sync. Turning it off again will return the Desktop and Documents folders to the Finder sidebar but they will be empty.
Ensure in Finder Settings that iCloud Drive is displaying (ticked).

View attachment 40369

Select iCloud drive and you will find a Desktop and Documents folder within. Thats where all your files are now.

You can have iCloud Drive on without the above happening if you don't use Sync but, with Sync on the same contents will be available to all your devices eg. in the Files app on iPhone and iPad. Sync means any changes made to any file on any device will be mirrored on all devices.

There are advantages and disadvantages to both methods it's up to you to choose which works best for your needs.

If you want to return the system to the way it was;

So, this is basically just a drag an drop process. I will assume that iCloud Drive appears in the sidebar of the computer in question, if not make it so.

First you need to turn off sync Documents & Desktop Folders in System settings.

This as Apple explains recreates those folders in the Finder sidebar but they are empty.

Now open a second Finder window and in that window open iCloud Drive.

Locate either the Documents or Desktop Folder, you have to do this to both so let's say you open the Documents folder first.

Select all of the contents in that folder and drag them to the empty Documents folder in the first (local) Finder window, you may want to open it so you can see what's happening, it may take a little time, some of the files will be greyed out until they have downloaded.

Now your local Documents folder is populated with the contents of the Documents folder in iCloud Drive.

Now do the same thing for the Desktop folder.

Once that is done and it could take a little while because you may be downloading a lot of data, (I advise you compare the folders to ensure that all of the files in each of the Documents and Desktop folders are the same as the iCloud Drive versions), you can go ahead and delete the iCloud Drive versions of the Documents and Desktop folders or at least their contents.

Wow! That's a great explanation & step-by-step, Rod. Thank You for posting it.
Paul

 

[PGB1]

Rod has given excellent directions. However, depending on the speed of your internet connection and how long and how much stuff has been moved to the cloud, you will need to wait between these two steps:

When you turn off the Optimize/sync in settings, what happens is that EVERYTHING that was in Documents and on the Desktop is copied back to your internal drive, in those two folders in iCloud Drive. That can take a while to complete, so let that finish before moving on to

I can't tell you how to know that the process of downloading is complete as there are no messages or progress bars. You might open Activity Monitor and look at Network to see if a lot of data is being received, but that's about it. Just wait. Maybe even overnight.

And make sure your internal drive has sufficient space for all of that stuff, too, or it will fail when the drive gets full. And with a full drive, the Mac will get impossibly slow.

Thank You Jake for the additional, and very helpful, information. I appreciate it.
Paul

 

[Rod]

Lets try to get this straight, the confusion is all around the difference between iCloud Drive and iCloud Drive Sync. They are not the same thing.
iCloud Drive is just like and External Hard Drive (EHD), the only difference is it's not plugged into your computer with a cable, its connected to your computer via the internet.
You can display it in your Finder sidebar, you can put files in it and take them out just like an EHD.

iCloud Drive Sync of your Documents and Desktop folders takes your local Documents and Desktop folders out of your computer and puts them in your iCloud Drive folder (in iCloud) so that they are all available on any device sighed into your Apple account.

An interesting effect of this can be demonstrated if you have iCloud Drive Sync turned on. Try dragging say a photo from your Pictures folder to the desktop, the minute you let it go it disappears. Where did it go? It went to the Desktop folder in iCloud Drive.

The problem is all down to Apple's poor description of the option.



If you look in the "Learn more" link you get a better description of what is going to happen and what will happen if you turn it off.

"What happens when you turn off Desktop and Documents?
When you turn off Desktop & Documents Folders, your files stay in iCloud Drive and a new Desktop and Documents folder is created on your Mac in the home folder. You can move files from iCloud Drive to your Mac as you need them, or select all of your files and drag them to the place you want to keep them."

This is not a disaster, it has advantages and disadvantages and it's completely recoverable. It's just a bit frightening for new users because it's unexpected.

 

[Rod]

So, I should add that I still have iCloud Drive even though i had to use the recovery method I described in Post # 6. I just don't have my Documents and Desktop folders on it.
I use it to store files I don't need to have on my Mac AND those files are still available on my other devices as well as my Mac and online at iCloud.com
If I choose to put eg. an MS Word document into iCloud Drive I can open the Files app on my iPhone and find it there. I can open it with iOS Word and edit it and that will be reflected in my iCloud Drive copy on all my devices.
I frequently save Pages docs to iCloud which are also available in the Files app > iCloud Drive > Pages folder.
So, a combination of iCloud Drive used manually (rather than synced automatically) works very well for me, when I drag or save something onto my Desktop that's where it is, locally on my Mac, like the screenshots I post on these forums.

I hope that clarifies the topic a bit more.

 

[pm-r]

Should take over the hope that clarifies the topic a bit more.

Maybe you and Jake should take over the explanations from Apple for how macOS and the various Apple/OS functions work as they don't seem to be able to write a clear understandable explanation, at least not in English.

And thanks for some of the clarifications as to how the new function actually works, or at least how it's supposed to.



- Patrick
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[IWT]

Maybe you and Jake should take over the explanations from Apple

Spot on, Patrick. The two of them do a fabulous job on our Forum, all round.

Ian

 

[MacInWin]

Thank you for the kind words.

iCloud and iCloud drive are not that complex, but Apple's choice to name them that way makes it more confusing.

Stop here if you don't want the details:

iCloud is a generic term for Apple's cloud storage. It's used by your AppleID when you log multiple devices into it for syncing things like pictures, for example. It can also be a backup location for your iDevices.

iCloud Drive is a service Apple offers that has two modes of operation (Jef Raskin would be furious at that). In one mode, if the user opts for "Optimize storage" the contents of the user's Documents and Desktop folders are MOVED to the cloud and what are called "dataless" files, or tokens are left behind to point to the location in the cloud. When the user wants to use one of these files, it is downloaded from the cloud to the local storage. When the user is done, it is saved locally, then again moved to the cloud and replaced with a new dataless file.

Now, all is good unless the user is not connected to iCloud for any reason, or if the connection is poor quality or speed. Then things fail or get very slow.

Where it gets confused is that if the user then decides to reverse the Optimize option, macOS creates a new Documents folder and a new Desktop folder to replace the ones with the dataless tokens in them. Then it creates new folders with those names in the iCloud Drive folder on the local storage and downloads all of the actual files from iCloud to those two folders. It's up to the user to then move them into the new, empty, folders created by the system when Optimize was turned off, if the user wants them there. Apple doesn't make assumptions about what user's intend to do.

In the other mode of iCloud Drive, it operates more like other file sharing services (Dropbox, etc.). The user can put things into the iClod Drive folder and whatever is there is duplicated (not moved) to the iCloud Drive folder in iCloud. Other devices also logged into that same AppleID can access that iCloud Drive folder for those files. That access can be manually or automatically triggered by the settings for sync. This second method is how I use iCloud Drive for my stuff. If I want to get a file to my iPad from my MBP, I drop it in iCloud Drive folder.

It didn't have to be this way. Apple developer ignored Jef Raskin's advice to always be modeless. And in this case, modeless would have been achieved simply by NOT naming all of these functions with "iCloud."

I think I'll mark this post because I seem to end up repeating this same story as new users stumble into the morass.

 

[IWT]

I think I'll mark this post because I seem to end up repeating this same story as new users stumble into the morass

Exactly so. "Over and over again", our members get confused and tied up with the nomenclature, which you kindly explain "over and over again".

And thank you, and others, for doing this.

Ian

 

[Rod]

iCloud and iCloud drive are not that complex, but Apple's choice to name them that way makes it more confusing.

Yes I second that, and thank you all for your kind words. Like anything, it's simple if you understand it.

I think I'll mark this post because I seem to end up repeating this same story as new users stumble into the morass.

I already have

 

[MacBiter]

it would have made more sense it they'd called them 'iCloud (Sync)' and 'iCloud (Storage)'. Or, just iCloud with a 'sync' default across your devices, but with the option for 'non sync' (i.e. storage online only) for each file.

 

[MacInWin]

it would have made more sense it they'd called them 'iCloud (Sync)' and 'iCloud (Storage)'.

It would still be confusing. It would make better sense to have totally unrelated names. Maybe something like "Online Document Storage" and "Sync Documents" and leave out "iCloud" altogether. I think the Apple marketers are too fond of "iCloud." The idea of modeless is to keep from confusing an end user by having the same stuff (app, hardware, whatever) have multiple ways of operation. Do a bit of research on "modeless" to see what I mean and why it's a bad idea to have multiple modes for the same setup.

 

[pm-r]

Do a bit of research on "modeless" to see what I mean and why it's a bad idea to have multiple modes for the same setup.

I agree completely.


It's unfortunate that the Apple software designers and especially their head honcho cannot read or heed such advice and it would be nice if they went back and learned some of the advice given in the old classic Mac GUI Interface Manual.

But I certainly do appreciate many of the improvements especially those for the handicapped that they have improved upon throughout the years.

Maybe they'll get them up to date and working better before I can no longer use any of them.



- Patrick
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