G4 Sawtooth AGP - USB problem at startup / firmware

[kay_mac]

I just purchased a fairly stock 350mhz (Sawtooth AGP graphics) G4 tower currently running only OS 9 but which is exhibiting a strange USB problem. Always chimes ok, but it does not start to boot unless everything has been left unplugged from the USB ports. It stalls if you leave anything connected to the USB ports. If that happens, I have to shutdown and start booting all over again. Once the boot has begun and is underway, it is possible to connect any USB peripherals, keyboard, mouse etc.. and the motherboard performs quite normally in OS9.2.1 - but connect anything to the USB ports too early, and it will prevent it from booting any further. The only USB item that can be plugged in at startup is an LED reading light, i.e., not a data peripheral.

The absence of any keyboard at startup means that I cannot try booting into open firmware, nor repeat- zap the pram etc. (TechTool later saw to that). It is just possible to boot without extensions, but you have to be very quick about connecting the keyboard. I have tried the reset button for the PMU but this doesn't make any difference. PRAM battery is good. Has 512mb ram installed- which checks out as "OK". Internal 56k modem doesn't currently 'see' the serial port, but I don't know if that issue relates.

I tried an update of the ROM using Version 4.2.8 However, the "G4 Firmware" data file created in the System Folder (OS9) seems to prevent the system from starting to boot up. I removed the data file from the System Folder which allows it to boot again, but of course, no update takes place.

Apple System Profiler shows:-

ROM revision: $77D.45F6

Boot ROM version: 1.3f1

Mac OS ROM file version: 8.4


USB version is 1.5.5 and startup activity on the bus looks typically like this:-


1.257: Expert - Initializing ROM based USB Expert 1.5.5
1.279: [ 123456789]: UIM - keylargo found -2147483648
1.279: [ 123456789]: UIM - wake handler enqueued 0
1.291: [ 123456789]: UIM - keylargo found -2147483648
1.291: [ 123456789]: UIM - wake handler enqueued 0
1.355: [ 123456789]: UIM - UIMEndpointDelete: Could not find endpoint -6987
1.416: [ 123456789]: UIM - UIMEndpointDelete: Could not find endpoint -6987
1.431: [ 75576029]: Expert - LoadClassDriver: USBHub1Apple - calling driver initialize routine... 0
1.431: [ 75576029]: Expert - LoadClassDriver: USBHub1Apple - driver initialization completed 0
1.431: [ 75576029]: Driver - Externally powered Hub attached - power supply good 0
1.446: [ 75576286]: Expert - LoadClassDriver: USBHub1Apple - calling driver initialize routine... 0
1.446: [ 75576286]: Expert - LoadClassDriver: USBHub1Apple - driver initialization completed 0
1.447: [ 75576286]: Driver - Externally powered Hub attached - power supply good 0
2.712: [ 0]: Expert - Bus Enumeration using ROM-based drivers (mSec): 1299
2.716: [ 0]: Expert - Registered with Native Power Manager 0
12.391: [ 524]: Expert - LoadUSBShim: Unable to register fragment! -2805
13.469: [ 0]: Expert - Bus Enumeration using disk-based drivers (mSec): 1016
35.251: [-2146951168]: UIM - All ports disconnected, stopping clocks 0
35.255: [-2146955264]: UIM - All ports disconnected, stopping clocks 0
51.819: [ 75576286]: Driver - Hub Driver - Device found, calling USBHubAddDevice. Port 1
51.976: [ 0]: USL - processDelayQ delayQueueChanged, breaking 0
52.180: [ 75576543]: Expert - LoadClassDriver: USBCompositeDevice1.5.5 - calling driver initialize routine... 0
52.181: [ 75576543]: Expert - LoadClassDriver: USBCompositeDevice1.5.5 - driver initialization completed 0
52.231: [ 0]: USL - processDelayQ delayQueueChanged, breaking 0
52.394: [-1744499966]: Expert - LoadInterfaceDriver: USBHIDMouseDriver - calling driver initialize routine... 0
52.395: [-1744499966]: Expert - LoadInterfaceDriver: USBHIDMouseDriver - driver initialization completed 0
52.406: [ 0]: USL - processDelayQ delayQueueChanged, breaking 0


As I wasn't the owner of the G4 at the time, I don't know how the USB port/ Firmware /ROM problem started. I would like to do something about the USB ports but am not sure how to approach this. I tried fitting a PCI USB card, but it hasn't solved the problem. Does anyone have an idea that I can try out?

kay_mac

 

[Badger]

Have you tried booting from a utility CD like TechTool Pro or Norton's? If it won't boot from the CD with the keyboard attached try setting the CD as the start up volume in the control panel.
Badger

 

[kay_mac]

Have you tried booting from a utility CD like TechTool Pro or Norton's? If it won't boot from the CD with the keyboard attached try setting the CD as the start up volume in the control panel.
Badger

Thanks for the suggestion. So far I have successfully booted from the installer CD for both 9.0.2 and 9.2.1, also managed to boot from a zip cartridge (internal), as well as from the internal HD. However, as I said above, this only works with the USB ports unplugged, otherwise it just won't boot. Therefore. I don't know it would make much difference to boot from either Techtools Pro or Norton CDs, but I have a Norton Startup CD somewhere and will give it a go.
cheers
kay_mac

 

[rman]

Cuple of questions here. How many usb devices do you have plugged in when the system is up and running? What I am wondering is if you have more devices connected the system other than the keyboard and mouse. I am thinking that you may have a power problem. Where the devices on the usb ports are not getting enough power.

 

[kay_mac]

Cuple of questions here. How many usb devices do you have plugged in when the system is up and running? What I am wondering is if you have more devices connected the system other than the keyboard and mouse. I am thinking that you may have a power problem. Where the devices on the usb ports are not getting enough power.

Thanks for your input. I totally agree this can matter, but even a basic USB mouse plugged in will stop the boot process. After booting up, I have only tried Apple's USB keyboard and sometimes an Apple PRO keyboard and an optical mouse, so there are no other power draining peripherals. Seems to work ok with a USB flash drive. I plugged a reading light in the USB ports to see if it would affect booting, which it does not.

Come to think of it, I haven't tried connecting the USB ports to an external powered hub at startup. That would be the logical next step from your advice. I'll give that a try as well.
Thanks.
kay_mac

 

[Badger]

Since the computer has the same problem when it starts from a system CD the problem is probably mechanical/electrical. It seems that power levels are OK after the machine boots (and a power-only device - the light - works normally) so the problem seems related to the port's data initialisation during the bootup. I know that firewire ports occassionally can be revived by starting up with the programmer's reset depressed. I have no idea if that would help here.
Badger

 

[kay_mac]

Since the computer has the same problem when it starts from a system CD the problem is probably mechanical/electrical. It seems that power levels are OK after the machine boots (and a power-only device - the light - works normally) so the problem seems related to the port's data initialisation during the bootup. I know that firewire ports occassionally can be revived by starting up with the programmer's reset depressed. I have no idea if that would help here.
Badger

Thanks for your further observations. I also feel that specific component damage cannot be ruled out, but the USB ports operate normally once the boot up is fully underway, which suggests to me the problem is more likely to be firmware.

I was very interested in what you say about the firewire ports, as I have read that these can sometimes be 'lost' as the result of a firmware upgrade. I tried your idea of booting with the programmer's reset button, but it hasn't made any difference on the USB side. Still it was worth a try.
Thanks.
kay_mac

 

[kay_mac]

I should mention what happens if I leave the keyboard or optical mouse connected at startup. The caps-lock light on the original Apple USB keyboard lights up and cannot be turned off. Once that has happened, the G4 will not boot any further, even if the keyboard is unplugged at that stage.

Similarly, If I connect the optical mouse at startup, the red LED comes on, but it will not boot any further.

Unplug either of these items briefly and reconnect; the lights don't come back on, but instead they just give a very slight flash. (The caps-lock light doesn't show at all on the Apple PRO keyboard at startup, although I am not sure of the reason for this)

kay_mac

 

[Jolly John]

RE: G4 Sawtooth AGP - USB problem at startup/firmware.

Hi kay_mac

I need to ask you a question about your forum listing 05-18-2004 USB problem.

This is the URL: http://www.mac-forums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6563&highlight=sawtooth+usb+problem

It refered to your G4 Sawtooth AGP - USB problem at startup/firmware.

All the symptoms you have discribed I also have with my G4 400 Mhz Sawtooth. The same as you, I bought it from another second hand.

The thread seems to have come to a undefined end.

Did you ever resolve the problem and what did you do to resolve it.

Thanks

Jolly John.