For those planning to boot an Apple Silicon machine from a clone backup, read this:

[MacInWin]

A very good in-depth article from Howard Oakley on the importance of the Owner of an Apple Silicon Mac when trying to boot from an external drive:

Ownership of Apple silicon Macs matters: how it can stop external bootable disks

To boot from an external disk, Apple silicon Macs need them to have an Owner. Here’s how to investigate ownership, and how it works.

eclecticlight.co

This is particularly key for those who still use bootable clone backups of Apple Silicon Macs.

 

[IWT]

A very good in-depth article from Howard Oakley

Without question, that is true. And thanks, Jake, for posting it.

But I guess, starting with me, that the detail and consequences of all that is explained in the article will be over heads of most people.

Security versus "ease of use" has to be finely balanced.

Silicon Macs are becoming the norm and I suspect that dealing with a failure of any kind may be beyond the capabilities of most users??

Nonetheless, all kudos to you for drawing our attention to the article.

Ian

 

[MacInWin]

Silicon Macs are becoming the norm and I suspect that dealing with a failure of any kind may be beyond the capabilities of most users??

Not really. It's just different from the way we dealt with Intel machines. In the Apple Silicon systems, the tight security of the system and the way it interacts with the Apple mothership have significantly changed. You can see in the article that just booting a new Mac creates all kinds of communications with Apple. Howard recently wrote an article about how dependent the systems now are on that connection:

Using a Mac without a network connection

New version of ViableS runs in a sandbox, with no shared folders, and can now be isolated from networks. So how well does Ventura work without internet?

eclecticlight.co

Apple says they do that for security. I'm OK with it, as long as it doesn't get more visible to me. My one concern is that more software will do what Microsoft and Adobe already do, that is, "phone home" before launching an app I have paid for. And with subscriptions becoming more common, I think that is exactly what will be happening. Interconnectivity has a price.

 

[Randy B. Singer]

I got this from Dave Nanian of SuperDuper! fame:

"Randy, there are and were *always* things that could not make something bootable. The OS on the backup might not support the Mac you're trying to boot from. There may be technical issues with software you've installed that tie it to the Mac you copied from. The drive might have issues with one Mac or another. None of these things are new. There are more issues that might happen with Apple silicon Macs.

The article is talking about ownership of the secure keys and users for boot. But it also explains (at the end) how you can deal with that to enable boot if you're having trouble. As always, there may be other issues! This is just one new one because of the new architecture of Apple silicon, and how it interacts with macOS.

The key—and this is important—is that the *data* on the drive (apps, settings, data, etc) can be restored even if you have a boot issue. That's the most important thing!"

So, I guess that it comes down to the fact that we all need to back up our data, because drives can and do fail. We only have two choices in type of backup: clone or versioned. Both have their advantages and disadvantages (which we can discuss, if you like), but I find a clone backup, even one that you can't boot from, to be the more useful of the two.

 

[MacInWin]

Randy, I totally agree with Dave Nanian on what he said there. But having a bootable backup clone on Mx Macs is not as useful as it was on Intel Macs. Still useful, but not as useful. I do use cloned data as part of my backup strategy, but I don't even try to make it bootable. All I need is for my data to be protected, as Dave said.

In previous posts you have suggested that a bootable clone would still be practical for a business that could not tolerate any down time by having a "spare" Mac available to be booted from the clone backup. That is a good approach for a critical business that can afford that approach. What Howard's article points out is that if anyone plans to take that approach, the "spare" Mac needs to be either uninitialized (Factory-fresh, and "Owner-less," as it were), or at least the Owner of the machine resolved to allow it to boot from the external for the emergency run/restoration. The article contains some approaches to solving the dilemma of Ownership on that spare Mac, if it is not brand new.

So, I guess that it comes down to the fact that we all need to back up our data, because drives can and do fail. We only have two choices in type of backup: clone or versioned. Both have their advantages and disadvantages (which we can discuss, if you like), but I find a clone backup, even one that you can't boot from, to be the more useful of the two.

Exactly! Totally agree. Backups are key. Both kinds work, each has its unique strong and weak points. But it is overall much better to have ANY backup than to have NONE. But as previous Intel Mac owners move to the Apple Silicon Macs, they need to think slightly differently about the overall strategy to optimize their own situation(s). Otherwise they might be in for an unpleasant surprise when (if) they fall on that "bootable clone" backup only to find it won't help the way they thought it would.

 

[Randy B. Singer]

...But having a bootable backup clone on Mx Macs is not as useful as it was on Intel Macs.

As you have told us one or two times....

In previous posts you have suggested that a bootable clone would still be practical for a business that could not tolerate any down time by having a "spare" Mac available to be booted from the clone backup.

Or..one could lease a Mac for a few weeks while theirs is being fixed by Apple. Or one could purchase a new or used Mac if their work had to proceed with all due haste.

And I believe that I posted an entire list of ways that a bootable backup is still valuable. Do you need me to cut and paste it here? I suspect that folks are really tired of hearing about this by now.

 

[MacInWin]

As you have told us one or two times....

Yeah, I guess I have.

And I believe that I posted an entire list of ways that a bootable backup is still valuable. Do you need me to cut and paste it here? I suspect that folks are really tired of hearing about this by now.

Nah, no need. Bootables are still valuable. Somewhat. I just think it's important to say these things as more and more Mac owners move from Intel to AS machines. Once the transition is mostly complete and the vast majority of folks are on some sort of AS, then it won't need repeating as much.

 

[Slydude]

I ran into this ownership issue recently on a "new-to-me" Mac Mini". I had a full backup of my Intel iMac and after I completed the basic setup of my Mini and started moving some apps and data from my iMac backup. I suddenly realized that even if I were ruthless about how much I transferred it wouldn't leave the Mini with enough space to have any headroom at all.

I knew I had temporarily shared a clone of the Mini and my TM backup of the Mini on the same drive but couldn't get another clone made for the life of me. Even re-installing Ventura on a newly blank external SSD didn't work. After multiple failures and much head-scratching, I realized that a component of Audio Hijack Pro had asked me to change drive ownership. Once I changed them back to the higher level of security the clone worked.

I've been running off of the clone now for several days with no issue but still haven't gotten Audio Hijack properly installed.

 

[MacInWin]

I ran into this ownership issue recently on a "new-to-me" Mac Mini". I had a full backup of my Intel iMac and after I completed the basic setup of my Mini and started moving some apps and data from my iMac backup. I suddenly realized that even if I were ruthless about how much I transferred it wouldn't leave the Mini with enough space to have any headroom at all.

I knew I had temporarily shared a clone of the Mini and my TM backup of the Mini on the same drive but couldn't get another clone made for the life of me. Even re-installing Ventura on a newly blank external SSD didn't work. After multiple failures and much head-scratching, I realized that a component of Audio Hijack Pro had asked me to change drive ownership. Once I changed them back to the higher level of security the clone worked.

I've been running off of the clone now for several days with no issue but still haven't gotten Audio Hijack properly installed.

Yeah, the whole "Ownership" thing is new, and Apple hasn't been terribly forthcoming with it. Glad you got it sorted out. I think we may see more of these issues if more apps start playing games with Ownership like Audio Hijack apparently did. It's not a killer, but we do need to be aware of it to be able to help people.

 

[Slydude]

I still haven't gotten Audio Hijack Pro working correctly yet but it has been low on my list of priorities. I have looked at most of the suggestions on their site and either I'm misunderstanding something or there are other issues going on.

I don't remember the exact wording of the ownership error message that I got but I think it's something we've discussed here before in the context of cloning issues in general. I wasn't really paying attention to cloning SoC Macs because I wasn't planning to buy one at the time.

 

[MacInWin]

I wasn't really paying attention to cloning SoC Macs because I wasn't planning to buy one at the time.

That is what I think we will be facing as more and more folks get AS Macs. And that is why I keep posting, when appropriate, that the Mx Mac is not just a Mac, it's really different. So, the more we address it here, the easier it will be for the AS-newbies to find what they need.