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You're and Your, etc.

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toMACsh
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So who gets to decide which pronunciation is "correct," thus making the rest "perversions"? Of course, none of them are perversions; it's just as you said--language changes. It's not a good or a bad thing; it's just reality. It's not determined by individual preference but by corporate usage.

The masses get to decide what becomes the acknowledged correct pronunciation. If a word that was pronounced one way for 500 years slowly morphs into something else, that is a perversion of the pronunciation considered to be the "right way" for half a millennium. After a century, let's say, of this alternate pronunciation, if it gains enough traction for it to be the overwhelmingly common pronunciation so much so that 90% of the major dictionaries list it as the #1 pronunciation, it has effectively been changed. What once was considered "wrong" by almost everyone now is "right". If I choose to pronounce a word the way it was originally said according to historic sources, I am not wrong, and the new, now accepted way is not wrong either. The newer way, now accepted by nearly everyone, cannot be considered a perversion any longer, but it started out as such.
 

RavingMac

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Ewer awl sew rung!!!
 
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Ewer awl sew rung!!!


+1!!
But I'm not sure you have the correct tone or attitude there listning to yur accent. :Smirk:



- Patrick
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The wonderful thing about English is that you can mangle it horribly and still be understood. Most English speakers are so used to dealing with different and/or bad English that we're (we are) very forgiving. If my Australian friend says, "Pahk the cah in the cah pahk" I know that he's trying to say, "Park the car in the parking lot." No problem. Leave out the "r's"; I can deal with it. (But, can you deal with that questionable semicolon?)

Try that in Thailand where the native speakers seem completely unable to deal with poorly spoken Thai. Make one tiny tone error in a sentence and they're (they are) baffled.

Although English is a horribly complex and inconsistent language in so many ways, I contend that it easy fairly easy to learn because beginners are encouraged to keep trying by our ability to parse their mistake-laden (is that hyphen OK?) early utterances. We can deal with bad pronunciation, unconjugated verbs, homophonic confusion and almost every other error you throw at us. We've heard it all, both from native speakers and early learners. We remain unfazed.
 
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If my Australian friend says, "Pahk the cah in the cah pahk" I know that he's trying to say, "Park the car in the parking lot." No problem. Leave out the "r's"; I can deal with it. (But, can you deal with that questionable semicolon?)
Why is it questionable? You have two closely related complete sentences there. That's what a semicolon is for.

Although English is a horribly complex and inconsistent language in so many ways, I contend that it easy fairly easy to learn because beginners are encouraged to keep trying by our ability to parse their mistake-laden (is that hyphen OK?) early utterances.
That usage is good enough. The insertion of "early" between the hyphenated modifier and the noun is problematic, but not prohibitive.
 
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Correct punctuation, grammar and spelling defines meaning. Get it wrong and understanding is undermined. An oft quoted example is 'Knowing your s..t' versus 'Knowing you're s...t'.

As head of media and marketing for 20 years for a large public sector organisation, I was forced to devise a crib sheet - 'Its, it's and other apostrophes' - for my press officers, most of whom hadn't a clue. Read the Lynne Truss book 'Eats shoots and leaves' for elaboration.

Basically the difference bewteen its, it's, yours, you're, their, etc, is possessive (ownership) and abbreviation. If you ask yourself that question, it's easy to get the right spelling.


* I hung onto them...
IMG_5429.jpg
IMG_5430.jpg
 

RavingMac

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Sue,
You nailed the main issue, and why “Grammar Nazis” annoy me. The rules are about clarity of understanding in communication. Where the meaning of a message is unambiguous, whether or not it obeyed the rules is moot.

Writing is one of my passions (both prose and poetry), and so I chose words and structure for how they flow off the tongue as much as for any other reason. If my choice fits the rules, great!

If not, the meaning is clear, and the flow is what I desire, then also great!

I like your crib sheet BTW
 
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Correct punctuation, grammar and spelling defines meaning. Get it wrong and understanding is undermined.

For me, it's more of a matter of attention to detail. If I see a plumber's work vehicle that says "Its time to calls an plummer;" on the side, my understanding is not undermined in the least, but the errors indicate to me a lack of care and attention to detail, and thus I wouldn't call them to have any work done (same goes for crooked decals). Obviously that's an extreme example. Most real-life examples would be far more tame.

You may have seen something like this before, which shows how even atrocious spelling doesn't undermine comprehension:

mixed-up-letters2_web_600.jpg
 

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Pretty amazing - I could read that as fast as if all the spelling was totally correct.

On the other hand, I can look at a complete page written correctly except for one word, and somehow my brain directs my eyes immediately to the misspelled word.

I guess software needs a lot more development for it to match the brain's capability in that regard.
 

RavingMac

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For me, it's more of a matter of attention to detail. If I see a plumber's work vehicle that says "Its time to calls an plummer;" on the side, my understanding is not undermined in the least, but the errors indicate to me a lack of care and attention to detail, and thus I wouldn't call them to have any work done (same goes for crooked decals) . . .
Well, I agree I most certainly wouldn’t call them for help with a writing assignment, but they may very well be bang up plumbers. I used to be an Engineering Division Mgr (several years ago now), and I always appreciated well written and properly punctuated Project Reports . . . but not nearly as much as well executed projects. And, unfortunately, one was not always a good predictor of the other.
 
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Pretty amazing - I could read that as fast as if all the spelling was totally correct.

Which was exactly the point of my earlier post. Your ability to parse English does not depend on the precision demanded by pedants.

BTW, I wonder how well the scrambled spelling would work in languages that use non-Latin writing systems.
 
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Which was exactly the point of my earlier post. Your ability to parse English does not depend on the precision demanded by pedants.

BTW, I wonder how well the scrambled spelling would work in languages that use non-Latin writing systems.


I'm guessing that this may be one of the main reasons that places like the UN choose English as the main universal language as it could be used and still understood even with all the various mistakes included.



- Patrick
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Well, I agree I most certainly wouldn’t call them for help with a writing assignment, but they may very well be bang up plumbers. I used to be an Engineering Division Mgr (several years ago now), and I always appreciated well written and properly punctuated Project Reports . . . but not nearly as much as well executed projects. And, unfortunately, one was not always a good predictor of the other.

My point is if someone can't be bothered to proof-read and/or learn the basics of grammar in a professional context, that tells me they're not a detail-oriented person. I don't want someone doing work for me that doesn't care about details. Yes, perhaps their sloppy writing is an odd anomaly to their otherwise detail-oriented activities, but I'm not going to take that chance.
 

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My point is if someone can't be bothered to proof-read and/or learn the basics of grammar in a professional context, that tells me they're not a detail-oriented person. I don't want someone doing work for me that doesn't care about details. Yes, perhaps their sloppy writing is an odd anomaly to their otherwise detail-oriented activities, but I'm not going to take that chance.

I don’t want to belabor the point, nor do I disagree in general with your position. It’s just I have known several exceptions to the rule you propose. When I was an Army Officer many years ago now, some of my best troops, even two of my squad leaders, were illiterate. That shortcoming did not negatively impact the quality or timeliness of their work.
 
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I don’t want to belabor the point, nor do I disagree in general with your position. It’s just I have known several exceptions to the rule you propose. When I was an Army Officer many years ago now, some of my best troops, even two of my squad leaders, were illiterate. That shortcoming did not negatively impact the quality or timeliness of their work.

Yes, of course there will always be exceptions. The point is to present yourself consistently with your work ethic. For example, someone might be brilliant at whatever job they're applying for, but if they submit a poorly-written resume, they're probably not even going to get an interview because they've made a bad first-impression.

If someone does not have the mental ability to learn to write, then obviously that's not what I'm talking about as it can't be helped. I'm talking about people who could write better but just don't take the time to work at it.
 

IWT


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Following on from Ratsima's (Mike's) link in post #34:

I have a near neighbour who has a sign on their gate, "Beware of the dog's".

Beware of the dog's what? Their bite or something more slippery?

Ian
 
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Languages morph over time, and English is able to handle the change. I remember in an English Lit class having to read the opening to Chaucer's Canterbury Tales in Middle English. The opening four lines were:
Whan that April, with his shoures soote
The droughte of March hath perced to the roote
And bathed every veyne in swich licour
Of which vertu engendered is the flour;
(Wow, that took some serious over-riding of the spell checker to type!)

That opening was pronounced (roughly)
Vaan that A-pril, with his shoe-ers swet
The drachts of March hath per-ced to the root
And both-ed every veen in swish liquor
Of whose vir-two, on-jon-red is the flur
In modern English that opening becomes
When April with its showers sweet
The drought of March has pierced to the root
And bathed every vein in such liquor
Of whose virus engendered is the flower

So I get it, languages change. But what annoys me is not so much the incorrect use of there/their/they're or its/it's or you're/your or a misplaced apostrophe. Those I just laugh at and read through them when they are online. They reflect badly on the writer as a sloppy thinker, to be sure, but sometimes a spill chicker will jump up and change things that go unnoticed. In a book, however, it's most annoying when I hit a grammatical error because those errors signal that the proofreader did not execute the task properly. Given that the proofreader was paid to correct the mistakes, that failure signals that the proofing was done poorly and in any non-fiction book puts the rest of the book in the precarious position of mistrust. If the publisher cannot take the time to get simple grammar correct, why should I trust the point of the rest of the material? Was the writers thinking so poorly organized that the proofreader had no chance of getting it correct? Bad grammar is, to me, a signal of potentially equally poor logic or thought. Not always, I understand, but it does weaken the impact of the author's logic and my trust of it.

What drive me over the edge, however, is the lack of punctuation. When someone comes to this forum and starts to tell us all about the problems with the system they are having and run everything together with no breaks and no punctuation I find it very hard to read often I don't bother to read past the first line or two because I simply don't have the time to try to sort out what they might be trying to say It is hard to read much less understand. I want to type out an answer something like
.....,,,,,,;;;;;:::: Sprinkle some of these in your post so I can tell what you are trying to say.

& don't u txt 2 me unless u r on ur fone. Not English. Twittering, maybe. English, no. You have a full sized keyboard, use it.
 

IWT


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Was the writers thinking so poorly organized

I realise you slipped this in to test us, Jake:):D:loveit Cheeky!

Of course depending on the number of authors, it could be writer's or writers' thinking.

Ian
 

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