Installing 7.5.x on a Mac SE

[dhoggan]

Hi,

I'm hoping this is the right forum, but apologies if not.

I have a Mac SE with a Superdrive (and relevant chipset) that can successfully read and write 1.4Mb floppies. It also has a SCSI2SD setup with two virtual devices - a 2GB device 0 (for OS) and a 12.something GB device 1 (for data). The OS partition was a disk image downloaded from savagetaylor.com - the 2GB base 7.5.5 image - and this allows the Mac to boot and is usable. I've installed some Infocom adventures a and After Dark v2.

The issue I have is that I want to complete the OS installation but have tied myself up in knots trying to understand how. I have downloaded the 19 part v7.5.3 images set off the internet archive, and on my iMac G5 (running Leopard) I can extract it as a mountable disk. Not what I want, but it suggests the images are not corrupt. I've copied each of these files to the SE but when I click on the SMI (aka part 1) it gives an error saying it cannot be opened because of error type -199.

I'm obviously not understanding what I am meant to be doing, but how can convert the 19 part 7.5.3 set into floppies that I can use. My aim is to either expand the base installation of 7.5.5 that I have to a full version, or create a set of floppies that I can then use to erase device 0 completely and install a fresh copy of 7.5.3 - which can then be upgraded to 7.5.5.

Any help really appreciated!

Thanks,

Dave

 

[MBAmtloin]

wow, i remember on my SE that anything the macintosh could not read was deemed "corrupt" when the data worked on other systems, like a commodore.
that is software reading issue, but im trying to remember back to 1995 having one and successfully exporting files wth a program that was eventually changed into claris works for a 7200 macintosh that year.
it might be rosetta stone?
the weird thing is i was just trying to find a 2003 file and think about all these 1990's computing systems and how happy we can use thumb drives or air.
sorry if i did not answer or solve your problem.

 

[pigoo3]

It also has a SCSI2SD setup with two virtual devices - a 2GB device 0 (for OS) and a 12.something GB device 1 (for data). The OS partition was a disk image downloaded from savagetaylor.com - the 2GB base 7.5.5 image - and this allows the Mac to boot and is usable. I've installed some Infocom adventures a and After Dark v2.

Hello Dave...definitely an interesting project you have there. I've been doing the "Mac thing" for quite some time...and have probably done something similar to what you're trying to do now...but when I dit it...it was a long time ago. Lol

Some questions to help understand things & your setup:

1. Can you clarify what hard storage device you're working with please? You mentioned having a 2 gig device for the OS...and a 12+ gig device for data. Is this an actual physical hard drive(s)...or "virtual"/something else. Also...do you really mean to use the term "gigabyte"? Nothing back in the Mac SE days was gigabyte...more like "megabyte"...and even megabytes wasn't used that much...since a decent sized HD back then was 20 megabyte. Lol

2. Is the Superdrive you have an internal floppy drive for the Mac SE...or an external floppy drive?

3. As far as the disk images & converting to floppies. You said you copied the disk images from the iMac G5 to the Mac SE. How exactly was this done...please include as much detal as possible.

4. As far as opening the OS 7.5.3 images on the Mac SE...one thing to keep in mind...the Mac OS way back around 1995 was not nearly as "flexible" as the MacOS is today. This is just a guess since it's been so long...but trying to mount an OS 7.5.3 disk image on a Mac SE desktop running OS 7.5.5.

Anyways...rather than recreate the wheel..here's a pretty good article on how to make Classic Mac boot floppies (hopefully it helps...or at least suggests some options not previously considered):

Creating Classic Mac Boot Floppies in OS X | Low End Mac

- Nick

 

[pigoo3]

Another question. If this Mac SE is already running Classic Mac OS 7.5.5 (the maximum OS possible for a Mac SE)...what's missing from this OS 7.5.5 install that requires all of the "summersaults" with OS 7.5.3...and then upgrading to 7.5.5?

- Nick

 

[dhoggan]

Hi Nick,

The SE has a SCSI2SD adapter in pace of the original 20 MB drive. I currently have a 16GB SD card configured as two virtual SCSI devices (a 2GB device 0 and a 12.8GB device 1). SO, definitely GB and not MB.

The Superdrive is internal. I've replaced the original 800K one and the three required ICs on the mobo have been replaced. The Superdrive is tested and operational, writing and reading 1.4Mb floppies.

To copy the 19-part 7.5.3 install I coped each file (the initial .SMI and the following 18 .part files) one at a time on a 1.4Mb floppy. The G5 has an external floppy drive connected and, again, I'm confident it works as I've transferred other software, such as After Dark, and that works).

I have read the article you linked to and unfortunately it does not help. It does include a link to the 19-part archive I have, but then goes on to discuss using dd to copy image files to floppy. These are not image file and so, unless I'm missing something (which is very possible!), I can;t see how to get from the files to disks I can use.

As for the current state of 7.5.5. It is a very bare-bones install. It was provided on the web site I linked to in the original post as part of their 'getting started' image. Basically, their image provides just enough files to boot the system, but nothing else. No control panel or anything like that. This is why I either want to add the rest of the v7.5.5 configuration (which I cannot find anywhere), or creat a set of 7.5.3 floppies that I can use to reinstall the OS on to the 2GB drive 0 - so something I can boot into and feed it floppies one after another.

Thanks,

Dave

 

[pigoo3]

Thanks Dave for all the additional details...and thankfully a couple of the details I think could be important.

Firstly...that SCSI2SD adapter sounds pretty cool...I didn't know they existed. But then again...how many users are trying to adapt a Macintosh SCSI port to SD in 2020?? Ha ha. Do you have a link to it?...I'd like to check it out.

I also have not heard of someone swapping in a 1.4 megabyte floppy drive & doing the motherboard IC install to make it work. Usually users back then just got an external 1.4Mb floppy.

As far as the link. I guess I thought you were working with OS 7.5.3 image files (I think this was mentioned in post #1)...in post #5 you said they aren't disk images.

Ok so here's the possible important part. Sounds like you have an external floppy drive connected to the iMac G5...and then a 2nd (different) floppy drive inside the Mac SE. What I've learned after years & years of messing around with old computer equipment is (regarding floppy drives)...as long as all the floppy drives you're working with are relatively new (not too many "miles" on them)...taking a floppy disk from one drive & using it in a 2nd drive to move files around works fine.

But...when one or both of the floppy drives are older...issues & errors start to show up. Seems that the read/write mechanisms in the floppy drives as they wear out kind of change alignment. If you format & use a floppy disk in one floppy drive...all is ok. But when you format & use a floppy disk in one older floppy drive...then take that disk to a 2nd older floppy drive...the 2nd floppy drive may not read the floppy at all (due to the formatting & writing the floppy from floppy drive #1).

If the floppy disk formatted & written to on floppy drive #1 is inserted & mounted properly on floppy drive #2...then sometimes you might get read/write errors with floppy drive #2. This may or may not be the source of the error's you're getting...but if there was some way to get the files from the iMac G5 to the Mac SE without using a floppy disk or floppy drives at all...then we could eliminate the possibility of the error type -199 as coming from the floppy drives or floppy disks.

Once this is done...if issues continue...we can try to tackle them one by one.

- Nick

p.s. Of course there's also the possibility that the uncommon/rare 1.4MB internal floppy drive install into a Mac SE (that only had 800k internal drives)...could possibily be the source of the -199 error. Thus getting the files to the Mac SE without using floppies or floppy drives could bypass any possible error's the 1.4Mb floppy drive may be causing.

 

[dhoggan]

Hi Nick,

I know what you're saying - floppies can degrade or fall out of alignment. I'm wondering if that is the case here as I'd have thought the CRC checking would have picked up disk reading issues (whether caused by the source drive not writing accurately or the destination drive not reading accurately). Also, I have written and read other disks in this setup with no issue.So, never say never, but it seems unlikely right now.

Tackling the issue another way, I thought that the 19 part archive was basically one image per floppy, but - from what I've seen on the G5, it extracts to a mountable image containing three file - one of which is a 30+ MB install. So it looks like it is not one file per floppy. As this is really what I'm after to do a fresh install, do you know if such a thing exists? Or am I looking at OS installation on a SE all wrong?

Oh, just Google SCSI2SD - lots around from varions source and the blog mentioned above also discusses a way to use them in a SE system.

Thanks,

Dave

 

[pigoo3]

The floppy alginment issue (with age) may or may not be a cause of the -199 error...just wanted to mention it in case you hadn't thought of it...or knew it existed.

As far as the floppies & installing. If my memory serves me correctly...Classic Mac OS 7.6 was the first Classic Mac OS version shipped on CD. Thus everything before it would have shipped on floppy disk...very likely 800k disks. Thus any disk images of of Classic Mac OS 7.5.3 or 7.5.5 would have had to fit on floppy disks (yes...that would be a ton of floppy disks for an OS install). If you're seeing a install file/disk image of 30+ megabyte...then either that file is wrong (or in the wrong format)...or somehow it's supposed to be split up into smaller disk images that will each fit on an 800k floppy.

- Nick

 

[dhoggan]

Hi Nick,

Ah, I didn't know about the meaning of the -199 error, so worth knowing.

As for the 30Mb file. What I meant was that, once I had downloaded the 19 individual parts (each of approx. 1.4MB) and opened part 1 (the .SMI) it mounted an image which contained three files, one of which was 30MB in size). I do not know, but I think that the files I have are designed to be loaded onto a lower OS version (for the purposes) of upgrading, or to be copied onto a new system once a minimal boot had taken place (perhaps by another floppy). The issue is that I can;t find anyone how knows what that 19 part archive the Apple released is for!

And yes, I agree with you that any System 7 deployment will either be on CD or multiple floppies. What I really need is someone to point me in the right direction to obtains those floppies. They must exist somewhere, but I'm having trouble finding them.

Thanks,

Dave

 

[pigoo3]

Ah, I didn't know about the meaning of the -199 error, so worth knowing.

I may have been misunderstood in my last message. I wasn't defining what a -199 error was...I was saying that the mechanical alignment of the floppy drive read/write head (for either or both floppy drives)...may or may not be the reason for the issues you are experiencing. Maybe this is not the issue. I mentioned it just in case it was a possible cause.

As for the 30Mb file. What I meant was that, once I had downloaded the 19 individual parts (each of approx. 1.4MB) and opened part 1 (the .SMI) it mounted an image which contained three files, one of which was 30MB in size).

Something still doesn't sound right here. If one of the 19 install segments (or images)...was 1.4 megabyte downloaded...but when mounted on the desktop contained at least one 30 megabyte file...that would mean at least (if not more) a 95% data compression rate. That's pretty high compression.

Here's a link to the 19 disk images needed to install Classic Mac OS 7.5.3. Since as mentioned...the currently installed OS (7.5.5 is minimal)...maybe it's better to install a fully operational version of 7.5.3...then update to 7.5.5...in order to have a fully operational 7.5.5:

System 7.5.3 (full) and tools to install it

Here's another link where the author explains in detail how to get 7.5.5 installed. 7.5.3 should be very similar:

* This link also contains download links for the 19 images for OS 7.5.5.
* A download link for the OS 7.5.5 updater (7.5.3 to 7.5.5 updater).
* And a download link for Classic Mac OS version 6.0.8 (which is only 2 files).

Setting up your vintage (classic) 68k Macintosh – Installing the full version of System 7.5.5 or 6.0.8 – David and Steve's Blog

HTH,

- Nick

 

[dhoggan]

Hi Nick,

These are the files, and this is the blog I've been following. When I click on the part 1 file it produces three file as a mounted image. I suspect it is not a case of excellent compression, more a case of part 1 is linking all the files and expanding that into a mountable image. As that page you linked to suggests, it need to be installed on top of an existing OS and this is my problem; my existing OS is 7.5.5 so above the version of the files. As mentioned, I suspect I need a version that can be used to install the OS when there is no existing OS - just a blank disk. From the searching I've done, these do not appear to be available.

I suppose my question is: given that you - and others here - have probably built one of these older systems in the past, is it these files you used to create the floppies? If so, then I'm at an impasse my only way to get data onto the SE via via floppy to floppy copy (which might be responsible for it not working) or to use my G5 (which turns those linked files into three files in a single mounted image).

But, if it is these file you linked to that you use, then at least I know the issue is me doing something fundamentally wrong. Right now I don't if it is me or I'm using the wrong images.

Thanks,

Dave

 

[pigoo3]

I suppose my question is: given that you - and others here - have probably built one of these older systems in the past, is it these files you used to create the floppies? If so, then I'm at an impasse my only way to get data onto the SE via via floppy to floppy copy (which might be responsible for it not working) or to use my G5 (which turns those linked files into three files in a single mounted image).

Those files in the link should be the files necessary to install the OS (7.5.3 or 7.5.5). Each of the files should be a disk image capable of fitting on an single floppy disk of the appropriate size (800k or 1.4Mb). Thus if everything was trasferred to floppy disks...you would need a whole bunch of floppy disks. There is a procedure using the correct app (I believe it was called "Disk Copy")...probably other apps did the same thing...where each disk image is transferred to a floppy disk...so that the floppy disk works exactly like an original Apple OS install disk would have worked when brand new.

Back in the day...with any Mac with a single floppy drive...it was a real pain in the butt doing an OS upgrade with so many floppies. Even the Mac SE's that had dual 800k floppy drives it was a pain. The way the OS install process worked was...usually Disk #1 was the boot disk. Since this disk was only 800k or 1.4MB...it was a pretty slim boot disk (especially when it came to installing System 6 & &)...but it had everything on it to boot the computer...and do the OS installing.

Basically with a single floppy drive...the computer would boot up with the boot disk...then spit it out...and ask for disk 2...disk 3...disk 4...etc (or maybe the name on the disk). You would constantly be inserting & removing floppy disks until the install was complete...and sometimes it might ask for a previous disk (or the boot disk) be inserted at some points.

I'm thinking that transferring all the disk images is a lot of work...and due to the nature that old floppy drives may not be as reliable as we would like them to be (due to read/write heads having different alignments) involving more than 1 floppy drive to do this might introduce more issues (external drive connected to the iMac & internal floppy drive in the SE).

There was another way to do this using a hard drive. I'm familiar with doing this on a Mac Plus, Mac SE, or a Mac SE/30 computer either with an internal or external 10 or 20 megabyte hard drive. The hard drive is bootable. What you do is...you mount all 18 or 19 disk images at the same time from the hard drive to do the install...then I think you start the install process from Install disk 1. Usually install disk #1 was called (Insert me first...boot disk...Install disk 1 ...or something like that.

What I don't 100% remember is...if the computer still needed to be booted with floppy disk #1...or if you just needed to double click on the installer on the disk #1 image mounted on the desktop (from the hard drive). I seem to remember it could all be done from the hard drive...but it's been a really long time.

Another thing to be aware of is the disk formatting. I believe the disk formatting (hard drive, floppy disk, or the SD card you're using)...needs to be formatted for a Mac SE computer. The disk formatting for an iMac G5 running MacOS X would be using a different disk format than what's needed for a Mac SE. I believe the much older Mac's needed to be formatted as "HFS"...and Mac's running Mac OS X needed the drives formatted to "HFS+". Just mentioning this in case you didn't know...in case using the incorrect disk format was causing any errors.

Check things out...and see if you can get something working.

- Nick

 

[dhoggan]

HI,

Thanks for the info - it helps understand me understand the process. The interesting thing is that, on the G5, the 19 images get coalesced into a mounted image called "Sys7.5 V7.5.3 CD Inst". Now I'm not sure if that is because the G5 StuffIt app is doing something clever but where is the "CD" bit coming from. It does sound like the images I've been using - and the ones you linked - are for the CD install you mentioned, not a floppy install. There're the ones I need. I think think this may explain some of the issues - it's the wrong set of files!

The plot thickens....


Dave

 

[dhoggan]

Hi,

I might be on to something. I've found the floppy disk images for v7.0.1 on the Internet Archive and creating the on my G5 (via the dd procedure). If I can get 7.0.1 on the SE, then I can copy over the 7.3.5 files I already have (I hope) and upgrade to that, and then on to 7.5.5.

It's getting late here in the UK so I'll look into this tomorrow and let you know.

Thanks for all your help - very much appreciated!

Dave

 

[pigoo3]

I might be on to something. I've found the floppy disk images for v7.0.1 on the Internet Archive and creating the on my G5 (via the dd procedure). If I can get 7.0.1 on the SE, then I can copy over the 7.3.5 files I already have (I hope) and upgrade to that, and then on to 7.5.5.

Sounds great Dave. This is what I was hinting at earlier. Getting ANY version of the OS fully installed on your SE may be better than a minimally installed version of 7.5.5...then upgrade from there.

- Nick

 

[dhoggan]

Hi,

Just an update - I've manged to use the floppies to install v7.0.1 on the SE.

Getting back to 7.5.3: can anyone point me in the direction of where to download the floppy images? I'm working on the basis that, as Apple have released 7.5.3 into the public domain (albeit the CD version), then is is OK for download the floppy version. I've seen it on eBay, but as I can write disks myself, that would be cheaper.

Thanks,

Dave

 

[pigoo3]

Just an update - I've manged to use the floppies to install v7.0.1 on the SE.

That sounds great Dave...congrats on making some progress!

Getting back to 7.5.3: can anyone point me in the direction of where to download the floppy images?

Please refer to the link in post #10 of this thread. I included a OS 7.5.3 download link there for the floppy images.

- Nick

 

[dhoggan]

Hi Nick,

There are not the floppy images. As mention above, they are the CD install.

Thanks,

Dave

 

[pigoo3]

You're investingating this more closely than I...thus I will yield to what you say about the floppy vs. CD images. What I don't understand is...if the downloads in that link are a CD install...why would it be in 19 parts of a little more than 1 megabyte each (each download small enough to fit on a floppy)? If it's a CD install...it should be one single download file (not 19).

- Nick

 

[aOf8T3OD4AO]

7.5.3 + 7.5.5 Installers

Don't know if this will help, but thought I'd offer anyway.

I have original apple developer CDs with system software releases from System 6 onward. The 12/1996 disc has a System 7.5.3 Install folder and a System 7.5.5 Update folder. A screen capture from the disc's finder window is attached. I can send the files to you via WeTransfer if you wish.

Best,
Henry Korman