iPhone as a wifi device

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Perhaps, but how much space is actually left over on a 16GB iPhone after the OS and included apps are used? I don't know the answer to that myself.


It seems, at least according to this article, a normal iOS and its apps install is going to take up roughly 4 to 6 GB assuming my math is correct.

The amount of SPACE AVAILABLE is shown for different iDevices and a typical iOS install:
iOS 10 reviewed: There’s no reason not to update | Ars Technica

I would think that would leave you lots of room for your maps and projects. And especially so considering it wouldn't even be your normally used device but should still work as a backup if you really needed it.



- Patrick
======
 

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It seems, at least according to this article, a normal iOS and its apps install is going to take up roughly 4 to 6 GB assuming my math is correct.

Actually, you're right on Patrick. See my reply to Mike above yours. ;)
 
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But don't forget to calculate that some states have much fewer roads and miles than some others:

Road Miles by State:
Road Miles by State--A chart of states and number of road miles | Cubit's Blog

For comparison, I would think they would easily fit onto a 16 gig iDevice especially considering the full Marine navigation charts for North America and Canada coasts and lakes I used and with depth soundings and much more details etc easily fit onto my 16GB iPad 2.


- Patrick
======
True, Patrick, but he already has California, Arizona, Nevada, New Mexico, Texas, Colorado, Louisiana and Utah. Those add up to just over 1.9Million miles, or 21% of the total on that page. So 8/50 = 16%, but he already has 21% so, again doing the math, the other 79% should take no more than 7.2 Meg, for a total of 8.7 Meg. I still think 16GB should work, but more is obviously better and if the more only costs $20, it's probably worth it.
 
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I have been thinking about buying a used iPhone, perhaps a 6 or 7, to use as a navigation device for Waze and/or Google Maps. My idea is to not activate it on a cell network but use it, via my cell hot spot, to run the nav software through my vehicle's display. I have a Ford Sync 3 system which interfaces with the CarPlay app on the phone, or at least does so with my wife's iPhone.

I don't want to add it to my Verizon plan because I don't plan to use it as a phone, only for the nav stuff, and I was wondering if I could do that without adding a SIM card to the phone. That is, buy a used iPhone without a sim and without activating it and just connect it to the hot spot and, via a usb cable, to my vehicles Sync 3 system. Is there any reason that an iPhone without a sim and without activation would not work as a network device?

As has already been pointed out, an iPhone absolutely can work without a SIM card over Wi-Fi, although it may need to be carrier unlocked to do so. I don't know about GPS accuracy over wi-fi, but I have an iPhone 5s that I can do a brief test with when I get a chance if that helps. (EDIT: I was replying on the assumption you wanted to connect the new iDevice to a hotspot, but on re-reading that was what another member mentioned. Do you intend to be wholly offline, or connect to a hotspot running on your regular phone?)

Something else to consider when picking which model to go with.... iOS 13 has some very nice enhancements coming to CarPlay, one of which is split-screen mode to have navigation on one half of the screen, the other half showing music playback controls with the name of the song playing, as well some useful notifications. In my case, while iOS has had "Do No Disturb while driving" available for a couple years, it didn't work for me on my Pioneer unit until now (I'm on the beta version of iOS 13). At the moment, only Apple Maps is available in the split screen mode, but I don't know if that's just a matter of updates needed from 3rd parties to their own apps or what. Anyway, if you believe you will want these new features, you'll need an iPhone that supports iOS 13, which is the iPhone SE and the 6s onwards. The new features do work on Ford's Sync 3 system (my wife's car has that).
 
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As has already been pointed out, an iPhone absolutely can work without a SIM card over Wi-Fi, although it may need to be carrier unlocked to do so. I don't know about GPS accuracy over wi-fi, but I have an iPhone 5s that I can do a brief test with when I get a chance if that helps. (EDIT: I was replying on the assumption you wanted to connect the new iDevice to a hotspot, but on re-reading that was what another member mentioned. Do you intend to be wholly offline, or connect to a hotspot running on your regular phone?)

Something else to consider when picking which model to go with.... iOS 13 has some very nice enhancements coming to CarPlay, one of which is split-screen mode to have navigation on one half of the screen, the other half showing music playback controls with the name of the song playing, as well some useful notifications. In my case, while iOS has had "Do No Disturb while driving" available for a couple years, it didn't work for me on my Pioneer unit until now (I'm on the beta version of iOS 13). At the moment, only Apple Maps is available in the split screen mode, but I don't know if that's just a matter of updates needed from 3rd parties to their own apps or what. Anyway, if you believe you will want these new features, you'll need an iPhone that supports iOS 13, which is the iPhone SE and the 6s onwards. The new features do work on Ford's Sync 3 system (my wife's car has that).

Good to know. Thank you.

I travel with a Verizon hot spot that I have been using for my laptop, but which I would also use for any iPhone that I bought to use as a nav system. While I would buy an unlocked phone I do not believe that it would have to be unlocked to use wifi, regardless of the source of the wifi. In this case it is a Verizon hot spot but I assume wifi is generic and any device can connect to it, assuming it is wifi compatible.

Since my carrier is Verizon I might make the point of buying a Verizon compatible (ie, CDMA) phone, but perhaps not since I have no plans to use the phone as anything other than a nav device and no plans to get internet any way other than wifi. In any case, even if I bought a CDMA compatible phone, it would not be compatible with today's Verizon 4G LTE signal and if I wanted to make sure the phone was compatible to both signals I think I would have to look at something like an Verizon iPhone 7, and thus the cost starts to increase. We have our normal phones (an iPhone 8 Plus and a Samsung S10 Plus) so I don't really see the point of getting another compatible phone.

It is good to know that there is a split-screen view available, but I do not think I would need it since I do not listen to music when I travel. Typically my wife and I are talking and, if we are not, then I listen to a book from Audible.com, and that is on my regular phone. I just plug some ear buds in and play the book. I might be able to do that through CarPlay but don't really see how that is any advantage. The more functionality I need from the nav device the more modern (and faster) a phone I would probably need.
 
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if the more only costs $20, it's probably worth it.

I agree with your math, although I may have to add maps from Canada as well, and 16GB might well be enough. Still, there is something to the old saw about never having too much memory. Fortunately the cost of adding memory to an older iPhone like the 6 is so low that it generally feels worth it. 32GB would certainly make me feel more comfortable although I do not see the need for 64GB.

One of the truly annoying things about the iPhone is the inability to add flash memory to it. I am sure Apple is selling more memory because of that restriction, and they seem to understand the marketing.
 

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Out of curiosity I called AppleCare and asked for technical support for the iPhone. I asked the "techie" if a used iPhone could be used as a wifi device without a SIM card or with an inactive SIM card, and she put me on hold, clearly indicating that she did not know the answer. After a couple of minutes she came back and told me that if the iPhone did not have a SIM card, or if the SIM card was inactive, then it could NOT be used even as a wifi device, and I find that hard to believe.

Not saying there aren't folks at Apple that wouldn't know the true answer to this question.;) But as can be seen...maybe when the "average" customer service person is hit with an unusual question...and they do some sort of "off-line pow-wow" with nearby co-workers in other cubicles...the response they give the customer may not always be correct.

Logically...an iPhone without a SIM card is basically an iPod touch (first released in 2007 and still being sold). These iPod touches have a very similar 3.5" to 4.0" "touch" display just like iPhones up to the iPhone 5s & iPhone SE.

- Nick

p.s. And of course the real-life info provided by members in this thread were right on the money (it works)!:)
 
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Alright, so here is what I can confirm. I set up an old iPhone 5s to navigate to work using Apple Maps, then turned wi-fi and bluetooth off before plugging it into my Pioneer head unit. I have no SIM card in it so I was 100% off the grid. I only have a 10 minute drive to work, so Maps was able to preload my route and streets in the general area. As I was driving, the map display remained quite accurate with voice-over directions working until I strayed off route to get coffee. The roads for the area were still loaded and Maps continued to show my correct GPS location even off route. Once I was back on route, the directions resumed.

So, given my limited trial, I think you can expect pretty good GPS accuracy with at least an iPhone 5s and newer even if you aren’t connected to a hotspot.
 
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Alright, so here is what I can confirm. I set up an old iPhone 5s to navigate to work using Apple Maps, then turned wi-fi and bluetooth off before plugging it into my Pioneer head unit. I have no SIM card in it so I was 100% off the grid. I only have a 10 minute drive to work, so Maps was able to preload my route and streets in the general area. As I was driving, the map display remained quite accurate with voice-over directions working until I strayed off route to get coffee. The roads for the area were still loaded and Maps continued to show my correct GPS location even off route. Once I was back on route, the directions resumed.

So, given my limited trial, I think you can expect pretty good GPS accuracy with at least an iPhone 5s and newer even if you aren’t connected to a hotspot.

I think that would be true for any off-network navigation system. I have Sygic loaded and will test it as well, but you do need some connectivity for nav systems like Google Maps and Waze. What I found was that if there was no cell connectivity (we were in an area with no cell service so the hot spot had no signal) Waze could not plan any routing. It just sat there spinning trying to get a signal. Once it has a signal it can follow it without service, but it can not route (or re-route) without one.

Sygic, which is off-network, is probably different, as is Apple Maps. I will try both when we make our next trip. The real question will be if any of the off-network systems (other than Apple Maps) will work through CarPlay as I would like to have a large enough display to actually see the routing. I currently have no idea if CarPlay will even display the Sygic nav software.
 
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I think that would be true for any off-network navigation system. I have Sygic loaded and will test it as well, but you do need some connectivity for nav systems like Google Maps and Waze. What I found was that if there was no cell connectivity (we were in an area with no cell service so the hot spot had no signal) Waze could not plan any routing. It just sat there spinning trying to get a signal. Once it has a signal it can follow it without service, but it can not route (or re-route) without one.

Sygic, which is off-network, is probably different, as is Apple Maps. I will try both when we make our next trip. The real question will be if any of the off-network systems (other than Apple Maps) will work through CarPlay as I would like to have a large enough display to actually see the routing. I currently have no idea if CarPlay will even display the Sygic nav software.

Yes, since Sygic already self-contains all the map data, it should work perfectly fine when off-network. Also, according to their website, Sygic works with CarPlay (iOS 12 and higher required). They also tout their app as being the first "offline" navigation app for CarPlay, so yeah, you should be good to go!

Sygic Confirms Apple CarPlay Connectivity as the First Offline Navigation App - Sygic | Bringing life to maps
Apple Carplay - Sygic | Bringing life to maps
 
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Not withstanding Sygic's over-the-top claim to be first, there are two types of GPS navigation systems out there. I used to write professional articles on GPS systems when they were first coming out, when the accuracy of GPS was permitted to be used by civilians by the DoD to a level where it was practicable to use as a navigation system for cars.

If you want to know more about how it works, keep reading, otherwise you can stop now.

The two types of GPS navigation systems are what I will call on-demand and on-device. The difference between the two are where the maps are stored and where the navigation is performed. On-demand systems are dynamic in that they store the maps at some location in the cloud, downloading what you need for the route you ask for when it is planned. The planning can be done either at the mothership (as in Waze) or on the device. So the on-demand approach requires connectivity to the mothership, either by cell or wifi. And what happens without the connection varies. Waze, for example, plans your route and downloads the maps you need for that route at the start, so that it can show the entire route for you. And as you navigate, it constantly updates for traffic, obstructions, police, etc, etc. If you lose connectivity, it will use the last calculated route for you but it will tell you it has lost that connectivity and it won't update the route for those outside factors. Nor will it recalculate if you leave the planned route, as all planning is done at the mothership. I have a route I use it for fairly frequently and there is a 20 minute stretch with no cell service, so Waze complains for that 20 minutes. Once back in coverage, sometimes it automatically connects, sometimes it seems to have given up and won't connect unless I stop it and restart it. I suspect Apple and Google maps work the same way.

The on-device navigation systems are, as it sounds, on the device and can be used with zero external connectivity. Of course, if you want traffic, or dynamic routing around accidents, incidents, construction zones, etc., you will need some sort of connectivity. So when Sygic, for example, offers traffic updates, it is assuming you have that connectivity. No connectivity, no avoidance navigation.

So which is better? Depends. On-demand requires connectivity for just about everything. Although the "local" map may be on your device because that was the last one you used, if you use On-demand and want to go someplace new, particularly if it's far away, those maps for that route will need to be downloaded for you. But the advantage is that you get the absolutely latest information, including traffic delays, in near real time. On-device has the advantage of working without any connectivity at all, but you have to dedicate storage for the maps you *might* use, even if you aren't using them very often. Right now, I have an on-device navigation system called CoPilot GPS with all the maps for North America (US, Mexico, Canada) and it takes 3.61GB of storage. I also have Waze and it is reporting 108 Mbytes, or about 3% of what CoPilot is using.

As for accuracy, GPS for cars is accurate to about 5 meters (16.5 feet). That's good enough to use on the road as most of the system use a feature called "snap to road" that assumes you are ON the road, even if the most recent fix is not. Theoretically it is possible to have accuracy to within millimeters, if you want to step up in price to a dedicated GPS system. (Think Google Maps and Apple Maps cars driving around. I suspect they have a more accurate GPS to get the maps as accurate as they can.) (Geologists also track movements of the earth along earthquake faults using high-accuracy GPS receivers.) Cell tower triangulation can help get a bit more accuracy, which is why you see that nag notice if you turn off cellular and just use GPS. The improvement with cell triangulation is to about 5 feet, which is handy in cities where the bouncing signals from GPS can make it less accurate. I suspect 5G will enhance that triangulation, but I haven't seen any figures on it.

GPS is degraded if the satellite "constellation" above you is out of optimum shape. When a satellite gets low in the sky the bending of the signal through the atmosphere can make a few nanoseconds worth of error. (A nanosecond of error is just under 1 foot, so a delay of 15 nanoseconds would give you an additional 15 feet of error, for a total of 30 feet of error.) Bounce is even worse as every foot of added distance for the signal in the bounce degrades your position by that same foot. That's why GPS wanders around in cities as the signals bounce all over the place. Recent launches of additional satellites has significantly reduced the "bad constellation" instances and the logic in the calculations says, basically, "5 of us agree we are HERE and you single satellite vote THERE. We will use HERE."

Some systems will let you view the GPS data as it comes in. "Back in the day" you could actually see the constellation of satellites being used for the fix, so you could judge for yourself the accuracy. I haven't done that in years--no need for it with all the satellites that are currently up.

If you want more boring tech details, PM me. No need to bore the rest of the visitors to the forum!

EDIT: Added a bit of clarity on Waze navigation being done on the mothership.
 

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Alright, so here is what I can confirm. I set up an old iPhone 5s to navigate to work using Apple Maps, then turned wi-fi and bluetooth off before plugging it into my Pioneer head unit. I have no SIM card in it so I was 100% off the grid. I only have a 10 minute drive to work, so Maps was able to preload my route and streets in the general area. As I was driving, the map display remained quite accurate with voice-over directions working until I strayed off route to get coffee. The roads for the area were still loaded and Maps continued to show my correct GPS location even off route. Once I was back on route, the directions resumed.

So, given my limited trial, I think you can expect pretty good GPS accuracy with at least an iPhone 5s and newer even if you aren’t connected to a hotspot.

Super awesome sir. Thanks for the real-life experiment & positive results.:)

- Nick
 
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Not withstanding Sygic's over-the-top claim to be first, there are two types of GPS navigation systems out there. I used to write professional articles on GPS systems when they were first coming out, when the accuracy of GPS was permitted to be used by civilians by the DoD to a level where it was practicable to use as a navigation system for cars.

If you want to know more about how it works, keep reading, otherwise you can stop now.

The two types of GPS navigation systems are what I will call on-demand and on-device. The difference between the two are where the maps are stored and where the navigation is performed. On-demand systems are dynamic in that they store the maps at some location in the cloud, downloading what you need for the route you ask for when it is planned. The planning can be done either at the mothership (as in Waze) or on the device. So the on-demand approach requires connectivity to the mothership, either by cell or wifi. And what happens without the connection varies. Waze, for example, plans your route and downloads the maps you need for that route at the start, so that it can show the entire route for you. And as you navigate, it constantly updates for traffic, obstructions, police, etc, etc. If you lose connectivity, it will use the last calculated route for you but it will tell you it has lost that connectivity and it won't update the route for those outside factors. Nor will it recalculate if you leave the planned route, as all planning is done at the mothership. I have a route I use it for fairly frequently and there is a 20 minute stretch with no cell service, so Waze complains for that 20 minutes. Once back in coverage, sometimes it automatically connects, sometimes it seems to have given up and won't connect unless I stop it and restart it. I suspect Apple and Google maps work the same way.

The on-device navigation systems are, as it sounds, on the device and can be used with zero external connectivity. Of course, if you want traffic, or dynamic routing around accidents, incidents, construction zones, etc., you will need some sort of connectivity. So when Sygic, for example, offers traffic updates, it is assuming you have that connectivity. No connectivity, no avoidance navigation.

So which is better? Depends. On-demand requires connectivity for just about everything. Although the "local" map may be on your device because that was the last one you used, if you use On-demand and want to go someplace new, particularly if it's far away, those maps for that route will need to be downloaded for you. But the advantage is that you get the absolutely latest information, including traffic delays, in near real time. On-device has the advantage of working without any connectivity at all, but you have to dedicate storage for the maps you *might* use, even if you aren't using them very often. Right now, I have an on-device navigation system called CoPilot GPS with all the maps for North America (US, Mexico, Canada) and it takes 3.61GB of storage. I also have Waze and it is reporting 108 Mbytes, or about 3% of what CoPilot is using.

As for accuracy, GPS for cars is accurate to about 5 meters (16.5 feet). That's good enough to use on the road as most of the system use a feature called "snap to road" that assumes you are ON the road, even if the most recent fix is not. Theoretically it is possible to have accuracy to within millimeters, if you want to step up in price to a dedicated GPS system. (Think Google Maps and Apple Maps cars driving around. I suspect they have a more accurate GPS to get the maps as accurate as they can.) (Geologists also track movements of the earth along earthquake faults using high-accuracy GPS receivers.) Cell tower triangulation can help get a bit more accuracy, which is why you see that nag notice if you turn off cellular and just use GPS. The improvement with cell triangulation is to about 5 feet, which is handy in cities where the bouncing signals from GPS can make it less accurate. I suspect 5G will enhance that triangulation, but I haven't seen any figures on it.

GPS is degraded if the satellite "constellation" above you is out of optimum shape. When a satellite gets low in the sky the bending of the signal through the atmosphere can make a few nanoseconds worth of error. (A nanosecond of error is just under 1 foot, so a delay of 15 nanoseconds would give you an additional 15 feet of error, for a total of 30 feet of error.) Bounce is even worse as every foot of added distance for the signal in the bounce degrades your position by that same foot. That's why GPS wanders around in cities as the signals bounce all over the place. Recent launches of additional satellites has significantly reduced the "bad constellation" instances and the logic in the calculations says, basically, "5 of us agree we are HERE and you single satellite vote THERE. We will use HERE."

Some systems will let you view the GPS data as it comes in. "Back in the day" you could actually see the constellation of satellites being used for the fix, so you could judge for yourself the accuracy. I haven't done that in years--no need for it with all the satellites that are currently up.

If you want more boring tech details, PM me. No need to bore the rest of the visitors to the forum!

EDIT: Added a bit of clarity on Waze navigation being done on the mothership.

That was a very helpful summary of how the different systems work. I guess I assumed some of that - my RV has a built-in navigation unit so it works everywhere without any external signal, but it knows nothing about traffic conditions - but it is always good to get confirmation and much of what you posted I did not know. Thank you for taking the time.

As far as getting a used iPhone without a SIM card for the nav system, I ordered that this afternoon and it should be here in a couple of days. Iended up ordering an iPhone 6 with 64GB since I could not find one with 32GB. We have a trip scheduled early next week so I should know how the whole thing works relatively soon. I expect to add Waze, Google Maps and Sygic and its maps to the iPhone and see how they work. Sygic offers real time traffic information, but it is apparently an add-on and I have not checked how much extra it costs.

Interestingly enough we have an old Garmin hand-held gps unit that we used to use for hiking and it had the satellite display that you referred to and it was easy to see how many satellites the device was referencing. All of that seems to be gone.

One of the puzzling things to me is why these nav systems do not show elevation. Our old portable system - a Rand McNally - showed elevation but Waze does not and neither does Google Maps. I don't know about Sygic because I really have not used it, but I expect to on our next trip.

Thanks again for all of the information.
 
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One of the puzzling things to me is why these nav systems do not show elevation. Our old portable system - a Rand McNally - showed elevation but Waze does not and neither does Google Maps. I don't know about Sygic because I really have not used it, but I expect to on our next trip.
Elevation is not critical to road navigation and it adds a lot of extra data to have 3D maps. All the terrain information has to be added to the lat/lon info already there for 2D. That extra data adds about 50% to the size of the files with the maps. In addition, altitude is the most unreliable aspect of GPS. The challenge is that all of the satellites are on one side of you (above you) so there is a natural bias in the calculations. By the time a satellite is low on the horizon and useful for altitude, the error induced by the signals travelling through a lot more atmosphere makes them more unreliable overall. It's a lot better now than it was in the "early days" when you could be at the beach, literally at sea level and have the GPS report anywhere from +500 to -500 feet.

I used to have a 3D mapping system. I don't remember the name, but the map sizes were huge. It was kind of cool to be driving up a valley and see the hills on either side on the screen, but to be honest, the terrain information just wasn't useful for road navigation.

EDIT: If the system you use has a screen to show lat/lon, it should also show elevation. But again, the maps are 2D for the most part.
 
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I am sure that what you have written is absolutely correct, but I am not particularly interested in terrain mapping. We travel in an RV and that means that part of our decision as to where to stop for the night depends upon the local temperatures - can we sleep in the heat or will it freeze - and that often depends upon the elevation. Where we live, in southern Arizona, we need to be above 5000 feet to have a decent chance of sleeping at night during the summer and the same is true for neighboring states like New Mexico and Nevada, so the elevation is important to us.

Navigation systems get gps signals and the position of those satellites is known by the system. It seems a relatively simple thing mathematically to compute the elevation based on the angles of the satellites and both our hand-help Garmin (which is so old it no longer works) and our old Rand McNally portable nav system gave us elevation but our Sync 3 nav system from Ford (which is built into our RV) and the one from Chrysler built into our Jeep do not do so. Neither do Wave or Google Maps, at least as far as I can tell from my limited use of them, and that means that I end up having to use an app for my phone, and as simple as the computation should be I just don't see why the nav systems don't provide it.

I am sure you are right about the elevation data for terrain mapping, but I would be perfectly happy with gps computed elevations.
 
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Let me recommend some solutions, all of which, I think, are in the App Store from your iPhone:

Inrix Traffic - brilliant for traffic, navigation is OK
MotionX-GPS - recording tracks, elevations, speeds
Altimeter+ - Yep, just what it says

There are a lot of options in the App Store. Those are my three I have kept.

EDIT: Again, the road mapper software typically used for navigation while driving is not dependent on altitude as the maps are flat. You have a specific need for altitude, and it's perfectly available from GPS, but the map software makers choose not to have altitude (or the terrain modeling routines) in their software. If you do a search at the App Store for 3d map gps you can see what is available (not much for roads, but pretty good options for hiking, biking, skiing).
 
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2018 MacBook Pro, 15", i9, 32GB RAM, Monterey
Thank you for the list. I will check them out.

I do wonder if any of them are compatible with CarPlay as I do not wish to use the small screen of the phone. The whole idea is to get the apps to work through my Sync 3 system using the larger screen of the vehicle entertainment display. I know that Waze, Google Maps, Apple Maps and Sygic are compatible, but don't know about the others.
 
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southern Arizona
Your Mac's Specs
2018 MacBook Pro, 15", i9, 32GB RAM, Monterey
Would something like this help:
How to Find Elevation on Google Maps on iPhone or iPad
How to Find Elevation on Google Maps on iPhone or iPad: 7 Steps

This might work in the hilly areas, but does not seem to do much in the flat areas.

I checked Google Maps for our home, followed the steps and was told that we were at an elevation of 100 feet. We are, in fact, about 1500 feet above sea level, but probably 100 feet over the lowest flat land in our area.

What would be nice is just an entry on the map display that indicated the elevation. :)
 
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2011 27" iMac, 1TB(partitioned) SSD, 20GB, OS X 10.11.6 El Capitan

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