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  1. #61
    Creating a Bootable Installer for MacOS

    Member Since
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    To answer Rod Sprague, it was not from my Purchases page. I started out by googling the topic and discovered the Apple support bulletin at https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201372. Under paragraph 4 there is a hot link that leads to downloading HS and that is where my troubles began with only the 22.7mb file.

  2. #62
    Creating a Bootable Installer for MacOS
    MacInWin's Avatar
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    It would seem any Mojove user who wants to go backwards and can will sure have their work cut out to do so and it seems that Apple sure won't be helping them out!!
    Actually, going back to Sierra, assuming your system was originally equipped with Sierra or earlier when originally built, is easy as Booting with OPT-CMD-R. https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT204904 tells you how to do that.
    Jake

  3. #63
    Creating a Bootable Installer for MacOS
    pm-r's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MacInWin View Post
    Actually, going back to Sierra, assuming your system was originally equipped with Sierra or earlier when originally built, is easy as Booting with OPT-CMD-R. https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT204904 tells you how to do that.

    That would be great Jake if it actually works that way, for those who need to use it.

    I'm a bit leery as I had to do a complete restore on the newer, non-booting Apple iPad Air 2 my wife got that originally would have come with Pre-Installed OS: iOS 8.1.

    When it all finally and eventually completed, the latest iOS 12.x ended up getting installed which rather surprised me. And I sure didn't notice any other earlier iOS version options being offered.

    So who knows what OS version is going to get installed I wonder. ???

    PS: A similar thing happened to a neighbour's 2013? iMac. High Sierra ended up getting installed with a Apple Restore. She had been using El Cap'n with it, but it went completely goofy, hence the Restore. Again, a bit of a surprise and not really wanted, or needed.





    - Patrick
    ======

  4. #64
    A general comment -
    For those who need an installer of an older macOS, is it not possible to make the file available somewhere in this forum?
    Or does that somehowcontravene Apple's rules?
    It's not that anyone is getting anything for free and Apple is using revenue.

    It just seems people are wasting tons of time trying to get some of these installers that should really be readily available.

  5. #65
    Creating a Bootable Installer for MacOS
    MacInWin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pm-r View Post
    That would be great Jake if it actually works that way, for those who need to use it.

    I'm a bit leery as I had to do a complete restore on the newer, non-booting Apple iPad Air 2 my wife got that originally would have come with Pre-Installed OS: iOS 8.1.

    When it all finally and eventually completed, the latest iOS 12.x ended up getting installed which rather surprised me. And I sure didn't notice any other earlier iOS version options being offered.

    So who knows what OS version is going to get installed I wonder. ???

    PS: A similar thing happened to a neighbour's 2013? iMac. High Sierra ended up getting installed with a Apple Restore. She had been using El Cap'n with it, but it went completely goofy, hence the Restore. Again, a bit of a surprise and not really wanted, or needed.





    - Patrick
    ======
    Patrick, sorry to be so long in getting back, but I wanted to test myself before I responded.

    First, for iOS as Apple does that system differently than for macOS. iOS is always going to be updated to the latest release, so you experience is exactly what I would have expected. And I would also expect that along the way between purchase and restore there were opportunities to update to the versions along the way, but Apple ceases to sign previous releases of iOS when a new release is made. So even if you wanted to get something between original and current, and even if you still had the install files, they would not install because Apple would not verify them for the phone. It's been that way from the first iPhone to now. The previous version is only there for a day or so after a new release, just in case someone upgrades and for any reason wants to go back. That decision to go back has to be made very quickly as the signing is rescinded within days.

    OK, but that's not how it works for macOS. Apple makes it possible to go all the way back to what the system originally had, at least as far as the downloaded versions. And to test that for you, I took my backup MBP that had High Sierra installed and booted with Opt-CMD-R and did an internet install. It installed, as I expected, the original version, Lion. And from there I upgraded to El Capitan by looking into the Mac App Store and finding there my previously "purchased" installer for El Cap. Then I did an update to the last version of El Cap. And from there I upgraded to High Sierra, which put (or will put, it's still in process) the system back to what it was a few hours ago.

    I know you are often a sceptic when it comes to Apple, but in this case, if done properly, you can get back to what was originally on the system and then move along any previously installed versions to the highest the system will support. Just as Apple says you can.
    Jake

  6. #66
    Creating a Bootable Installer for MacOS
    pm-r's Avatar
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    I know you are often a sceptic when it comes to Apple, but in this case, if done properly, you can get back to what was originally on the system and then move along any previously installed versions to the highest the system will support.


    Thanks Jake for your info, and on the time and effort you put into this. But unlike some posters to the forums here, it seems you were lucky enough to have access to the versions you needed that were in your Apple Store purchases.

    One thing I haven't figured out from restoring my wife's iPad Air 2, or maybe I am misunderstanding something, but when I also used our imazing.app to restore ALL her stuff from its backup, I understood, or misunderstood, that it had the capacity to install the older iOS version as well but there was no option to do so or choose, and the newer iOS version from an Apple Restore stayed as it was.

    I wonder if I missed something but I don't think so, but regardless the latest and current iOS version is working out OK so I'll just leave things as such.





    - Patrick
    ======

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by MacInWin View Post
    Patrick, sorry to be so long in getting back, but I wanted to test myself before I responded.

    First, for iOS as Apple does that system differently than for macOS. iOS is always going to be updated to the latest release, so you experience is exactly what I would have expected. And I would also expect that along the way between purchase and restore there were opportunities to update to the versions along the way, but Apple ceases to sign previous releases of iOS when a new release is made. So even if you wanted to get something between original and current, and even if you still had the install files, they would not install because Apple would not verify them for the phone. It's been that way from the first iPhone to now. The previous version is only there for a day or so after a new release, just in case someone upgrades and for any reason wants to go back. That decision to go back has to be made very quickly as the signing is rescinded within days.

    OK, but that's not how it works for macOS. Apple makes it possible to go all the way back to what the system originally had, at least as far as the downloaded versions. And to test that for you, I took my backup MBP that had High Sierra installed and booted with Opt-CMD-R and did an internet install. It installed, as I expected, the original version, Lion. And from there I upgraded to El Capitan by looking into the Mac App Store and finding there my previously "purchased" installer for El Cap. Then I did an update to the last version of El Cap. And from there I upgraded to High Sierra, which put (or will put, it's still in process) the system back to what it was a few hours ago.

    I know you are often a sceptic when it comes to Apple, but in this case, if done properly, you can get back to what was originally on the system and then move along any previously installed versions to the highest the system will support. Just as Apple says you can.
    In all my years using a Mac, I have never done this.
    But should Opt-CMD-R be Shift-Opt-CMD-R or is this Apple article wrong?
    https://support.apple.com/en-ca/HT204904

  8. #68
    Creating a Bootable Installer for MacOS
    MacInWin's Avatar
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    One thing I haven't figured out from restoring my wife's iPad Air 2, or maybe I am misunderstanding something, but when I also used our imazing.app to restore ALL her stuff from its backup, I understood, or misunderstood, that it had the capacity to install the older iOS version as well but there was no option to do so or choose, and the newer iOS version from an Apple Restore stayed as it was.
    Nope, that's not how iOS works. Once a version is released, the previous versions become unsigned and uninstallable. So a "restore" always ends up with the latest version iOS. Previous version will simply NOT install. That environment is tighter than the macOS.

    Yes, I had access to the versions between Lion and HS because I move along to each version as it comes along, so they were in my "purchased" tab. If anyone has a system for which they did not install, or at least download, the iterations of the OS but jumped from, let's say, Lion to HS directly and then needed to restore for some reason, their options would be to go back to Lion, then reinstall HS. But since they didn't have the interim versions in the first place, what that process would do is mimic what they chose to do along the way. That seems fair. Why should, say, Sierra, be available to someone who never installed, or downloaded, it when it was "new?"

    One of the things we need to keep in mind is that Apple is a hardware company and gives the operating system away for free. So it's in their interest to keep the cost of that giveaway under control and version control is how they choose to do that. Unlike Apple, Microsoft is a software company, so it has been in their business model to support older versions longer, which they did until they got to Win10, at which time they shortened up the support for legacy versions. So they are now addressing the same costs that Apple had controlled all along. That's just the reality of technology in the 21st century.

    FOR KRS

    From that same article you linked:
    If macOS Sierra 10.12.4 or later was never installed on your Mac, macOS Recovery works differently:
    Command-R is still the recommended way to start up from macOS Recovery. This combination makes sure that the installation isn't associated with your Apple ID, which is important if you're selling or giving away your Mac.
    • Option-Command-R installs the macOS that came with your Mac, or the closest version still available.
    • Shift-Option-Command-R isn't available.
    In my experiment today, I first used the recovery boot using Opt-CMD-R to repartition, erase and reformat the drive to totally blank. At that point the drive had no association with Sierra, which it had installed once before. But given it was totally reformatted, Opt-CMD-R took me directly back to Lion. If I had not done the reformatting, you are correct that I would have had to use the Shift-Opt-CMD-R. I was trying to emulate a machine in which the hard drive had failed, the user had no backup and needed to install a system from worst case. Normally, I would have tried a more normal CMD-R to reinstall from the recovery partition, or booted from a backup and reinstalled from there.
    Jake

  9. #69
    Creating a Bootable Installer for MacOS
    pm-r's Avatar
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    That seems fair. Why should, say, Sierra, be available to someone who never installed, or downloaded, it when it was "new?"

    I dare say you'll get a completely different opinion from those for whatever reason didn't or maybe couldn't download the installer when it was new and readily available!!





    - Patrick
    ======

  10. #70
    Creating a Bootable Installer for MacOS
    MacInWin's Avatar
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    Patrick, if the user didn't or couldn't get the installer but moved on to the next version a year or more later, why would they want to have the interim version? I would say 99% of users would want to be back where they were before whatever problem forced them to do a restore in the first place. Will there be someone, somewhere who really, really wants XYZ version that they never had before? Sure, maybe, and for that user the process to get the particular version is a bit more tricky, but it can be done. You just have to search for where Apple keeps the installer. They are there. At least for now.
    Jake

  11. #71
    Creating a Bootable Installer for MacOS
    Rod Sprague's Avatar
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    It seems our advice to users about making a bootable installer of the macOS you are about to upgrade to just in case you need it at a later date is pretty good advice. Had I done so I would now have a library of bootable previous installers but there's a catch. In a case where I downloaded an installer for my current macOS before upgrading I later found it could not be used because it too had been updated.

    Still, I now make sure I perform a clone update before using a new macOS installer, that way the installer is copied to the clone before use. In this way i have accumulated installers for Sierra, High Sierra and Mojave.

    I don't agree that Apple is just a hardware company, as their operating system and native apps is/are unique to their hardware. True they may not be developers in the true sense of the word but their software is an inseparable part of all of their devices, its what makes them Macs.

    I note there are now no instances of OSX installers in the App Store or in my purchase history. They have reintroduced "Software Update" as a part of System Preferences to update your, OS something that we have not seen for years. It may be a good thing to separate apps and OSX version storage. I'm guessing the OSX and probably iOS software is now on separate servers which may mean better handling of the log jams caused by the release of a new or updated operating system. The downside of this appears to be there is now no access to a library of previous operating system downloads from Mojave. This would explain why they have all disappeared from my App store records I suppose.

    KRS queried if maybe this had something to do with the move to APFS and there may just be something to that.
    Last edited by Rod Sprague; 02-04-2019 at 01:28 AM.
    I used to be conceited but now I'm perfect.

  12. #72
    Creating a Bootable Installer for MacOS
    MacInWin's Avatar
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    I don't agree that Apple is just a hardware company, as their operating system and native apps is/are unique to their hardware. True they may not be developers in the true sense of the word but their software is an inseparable part of all of their devices, its what makes them Macs.
    Let me restate it slightly differently. I originally said:
    One of the things we need to keep in mind is that Apple is a hardware company and gives the operating system away for free.
    I would revise that to say,
    One of the things we need to keep in mind is that Apple is a hardware company who only develops software to take advantage of the hardware and gives the operating system and other software they develop away for free.
    For Apple, the software is secondary, kind of a necessary evil, to sell the hardware. So they drive to keep software costs down.

    Also, you said:
    The downside of this appears to be there is now no access to a library of previous operating system downloads from Mojave.
    There IS access to previous operating systems. Internet Recovery. Here is the article on it from Apple: https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201314

    And once you recover to the original OS for the system (Or Lion, as that is the oldest downloadable version), then the App store works as it did back then and all your purchases are visible again, as they were, including all the installers you "purchased" by downloading them. I just did that yesterday, taking a MBP with HS, reverting to Lion, loading El Cap, then HS again, just as a test that it all worked. I don't think it has anything to do with APFS, but more with just how Apple has changed the approach to old versions of the OS.
    Jake

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by MacInWin View Post
    I don't think it has anything to do with APFS, but more with just how Apple has changed the approach to old versions of the OS.
    I originally brought up the possibility that dual download of the HS installer, and the HS installer only!, could possibly relate to APFS.
    All installers from Lion onwards and also including Mojave, will download completely - only the HS installer is done in two steps. Question is why?

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by Rod Sprague View Post
    It seems our advice to users about making a bootable installer of the macOS you are about to upgrade to just in case you need it at a later date is pretty good advice. Had I done so I would now have a library of bootable previous installers but there's a catch. In a case where I downloaded an installer for my current macOS before upgrading I later found it could not be used because it too had been updated.
    So let me understand that;
    Say you downloaded the installer for El Capitan and you now have a bootable USB flash drive.
    Then you upgrade El Capitan to the latest version? Or are you upgrading from El Capitan to Sierra?
    Regardless, should not matter.
    You are now saying that the El Capitan USB flash drive somehow cannot be used to install El Capitan on that Mac?

    Maybe I'm misunderstanding this totally - can you give a concrete example?

  15. #75
    Creating a Bootable Installer for MacOS
    MacInWin's Avatar
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    krs, I think what Rod was saying was that we here give advice to visitors that even if they don't install the version, they should download the installer, "just in case." When they do that, they have a file that can be stored somewhere as an emergency tool. Now you COULD make a bootable installer for each of those, keeping the installer on a separate USB stick for each of the versions, but what I would do is just keep the installer app somewhere and if/when I needed it, I could create a bootable installer using DiskmakerX for that version.

    As for Rod's last sentence, I'm a bit confused about that, too. I'm not sure what the "it too has been updated" actually means. If you have an installer that boots, you should always be able to install it, even if that means wiping out the partitions to get rid of APFS, repartitioning to HFS+ and reformatting the drive totally. Once that is installed, you can update and upgrade right through the sequence. I did that just yesterday as a test, as I said.
    Jake

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