Page 3 of 8 FirstFirst 1234567 ... LastLast
Results 31 to 45 of 120
  1. #31
    Why all this resistance to updating/upgrading ?
    MacInWin's Avatar
    Member Since
    Jan 01, 2009
    Location
    Winchester, VA
    Posts
    5,854
    Your Mac's Specs
    MBP 15" Mid 2015, iPhone XS, an iMac, plus ATVs, AWatch, MacMini
    I guess I don't know why SL was "extremely stable." It worked, yeah, sure, but so did every version after that, at least for me. No kernel panics, no sudden reboots, no strange behavior. Yes, things changed, but that's just part of changing an OS. So, at least for me, SL wasn't all that much more stable than anything else I have used, and I have used all of them from SL to Mojave.

    As for hardware, I have one iMac that is 'stuck' at Sierra, and one MBP that is similarly limited to High Sierra. No problem, the Sierra one is my home automation server and Sierra does that task nicely. The MBP that is held to HS is a deep backup, just in case everything else dies, kind of machine. So in that case HS will be fine. Frankly, the MBP is also a backup for the iMac, just in case it dies on me, so it's configured for all the same home automation functions. And both are very stable.
    Jake

  2. #32
    Snow Leopard was "extremely stable" because Apple made it so.
    It was pretty much a "clean up" release with a lot of code cleaned up and very few new capabilities.
    It also became the jump off point for later releases - for a lot of them one needed to have SL installed to be able to upgrade.
    I think it also was the last OS where Apple actually provided a DVD.

    I'm not talking about kernel panics or sudden reboots, I haven't had those since I was playing with a Hackintosh...and that doesn't really count.
    But I do get the odd quirks with El Capitan now and then.
    Latest one is that my mouse every once in a while for no reason somehow locks into permanent "right click" mode when I do a left click.
    Tried three different mice, a Logitch, a Microsoft and a Staples one.
    They all do that occasionally for no apparent reason. I don't remember ever having that problem before.
    Easy fix is to unplug the mouse and plug it back in again - then everything is fine for days or even weeks - haven't kept track.

  3. #33
    Why all this resistance to updating/upgrading ?
    MacInWin's Avatar
    Member Since
    Jan 01, 2009
    Location
    Winchester, VA
    Posts
    5,854
    Your Mac's Specs
    MBP 15" Mid 2015, iPhone XS, an iMac, plus ATVs, AWatch, MacMini
    That's not what I meant. I'll try to make it clear.

    What is the definition of "extremely stable?" A dead horse lying on the ground is "extremely stable" but not very useful. Same for a computer that won't boot. So, what made SL "stable?" What, exactly, was so stable about it? And don't say that it didn't add features, it just "cleaned up the software" because that process can make things less stable just as much as it can make it more stable. I was in software development for more than 30 years, so I know exactly how that works. BTDT.

    As for your mouse glitch, that sounds more like a hardware issue in the USB port to me. And it's probably NOT a function of the OS, as it's not widespread, but restricted to you, or maybe to a handful of others. I have had zero mouse issues with any of the versions since SL. Having an issue with hardware is NOT a symptom that the OS is not "stable."

    So, you still haven't said what made SL so "stable."

    In my experience, a "stable" system was one that had few defects (you can never say zero) and the ones that it had were well known and had work-arounds to avoid them. No surprises, no daily changes. Dictionary.com says stable is:
    • not likely to fall or give way, as a structure, support, foundation, etc.; firm; steady.
    • able or likely to continue or last; firmly established; enduring or permanent:
    • resistant to sudden change or deterioration:
    • steadfast; not wavering or changeable, as in character or purpose; dependable

    .
    By calling SL "extremely stable" one implies that subsequent releases somehow were less so. All I'm asking is just how that is observed? Given that the subsequent releases all were "stable" by the definition, what made SL so special?

    And if you can't tell, I wasn't that fond of SL. About the only thing it had going for it that subsequent releases didn't and don't have was Rosetta, but it was time to give up on all those old applications and move on. (Yes, I read what Randy said about OmniPage Pro, but does abandoning something old make the new less "stable?" In that case, a brand new car is, by definition, less "stable" than the '48 Plymouth sedan I learned to drive in because new cars don't have floor buttons for headlights.)
    Jake

  4. #34
    I don't think this discussion is getting us anywhere.
    If you're looking for more reasons why SL was considered especially stable - called by many the "gold standard", you can read through a few articles about that here (and the user comments):
    https://9to5mac.com/2018/01/31/snow-...bility-legend/
    https://www.macstories.net/mac/reliv...leopard-magic/
    https://www.macobserver.com/analysis...-snow-leopard/

    As to my mouse problem - I tried different USP ports, the two on the Apple keyboard, one on a Dell monitor with a built in hub and also two directly on the Mini.
    Same issue.
    I initially thought the problem was the mouse, but three different ones from three manufacturers give me the same problem.
    So eliminating USB ports and the mouse, that only leaves the OS especially since I have used that Mini and keyboard and monitor with previous OSs and never had the problem before.

    But like most of these "quirks" on El Capitan, there are very simple work-arounds if you know what to do.
    When this problem happened initially, I would reboot my Mac to "reset" the mouse; later I found out just unplugging it and plugging it in again solved the problem, at least for a while.

  5. #35
    Why all this resistance to updating/upgrading ?
    pm-r's Avatar
    Member Since
    Oct 16, 2010
    Location
    Brentwood Bay, BC, Canada
    Posts
    11,295
    So eliminating USB ports and the mouse, that only leaves the OS

    Maybe try deleting the "Mouse pref pane .plist" file and let the OS create a new one. Just in case it's corrupt or just somehow goofy.





    - Patrick
    ======

  6. #36
    Why all this resistance to updating/upgrading ?
    Randy B. Singer's Avatar
    Member Since
    Feb 01, 2011
    Location
    Sacramento, California
    Posts
    1,525
    Quote Originally Posted by MacInWin View Post
    I don't know much about "Archive and Install" ...
    I don't think it is so much Apple that made it a chore

    Yes, they really did compared to how it used to be. A number of years ago if you did an Archive and Install your old OS was deactivated and left on your hard drive in a folder called something like " Old System" and the new OS was automatically a clean install. You kept the Old System folder around until you decided that there was no longer anything in it that you needed anymore, and then you trashed it. That setup was dead simple, and it precluded the modern problem of an "install in place" leaving behind outdated stay-resident system software that causes conflicts and slowdowns.
    Randy B. Singer
    Co-author of The Macintosh Bible (4th, 5th, and 6th editions)
    Mac OS X Routine Maintenance • http://www.macattorney.com/ts.html

  7. #37
    Why all this resistance to updating/upgrading ?
    MacInWin's Avatar
    Member Since
    Jan 01, 2009
    Location
    Winchester, VA
    Posts
    5,854
    Your Mac's Specs
    MBP 15" Mid 2015, iPhone XS, an iMac, plus ATVs, AWatch, MacMini
    kris, good reading, particularly this from the first article:
    Initial experiences with Snow Leopard weren’t as blissful as more recent commentary remembers. The troubled rollout of MobileMe, iCloud’s precursor, was still an open wound. Soon after release, a major bug was discovered in Snow Leopard that would cause the home directories of guest accounts to be wiped completely. The issue was prevalent enough that Apple publicly responded and later issued an update, 10.6.2, to address the problem.

    Early updates to Snow Leopard were packed with fixes to a long list of bugs. A 2009 article from iLounge on Snow Leopard’s reliability is filled with comments from frustrated users, some considering moving back to Leopard.
    and this from the second article:
    And perhaps a few versions later, especially after the irritations of 10.7 Lion, one might have pondered the practicality of just staying with Snow Leopard. But here we are at macOS 10.13 High Sierra, and not only is going back in OS time impractical from a security standpoint, but we’d suddenly be missing features we take for granted today.
    and this from the third article:
    Apple adapts. Security challenges continue. New hardware technologies enable a better, more responsive, more intelligent OS. We always move forward into the future, often forgetting that more primitive technologies of the past, while perhaps favored in memory, just wouldn’t cut it today.
    All of which sort of make my point about resisting change being somewhat mystifying.

    But you are correct, you have an opinion and seem unlikely to change, so this discussion is going nowhere. So, I'm done.
    *******
    Randy, that makes sense, except for the last statement, "That setup was dead simple, and it precluded the modern problem of an "install in place" leaving behind outdated stay-resident system software that causes conflicts and slowdowns." I've never had any system software stay-resident and cause any problems at all. Maybe somebody else had issues, but my personal experience is that install in place works as long as you don't "install, install, install, install, install in place" for many generations. As I said, I alternate install in place and nuke/pave installations for upgrades, and I have had zero issues with it.

    But this whole discussion is, as krs said, going nowhere. I don't have a fond recollection for SL, it was good, but time moves on. But if others want to reminisce about the "good old days," my experience is that nothing will ever disabuse them of the selective memory of times gone by.
    Jake

  8. #38
    Why all this resistance to updating/upgrading ?
    Randy B. Singer's Avatar
    Member Since
    Feb 01, 2011
    Location
    Sacramento, California
    Posts
    1,525
    Quote Originally Posted by MacInWin View Post
    Given that the subsequent releases all were "stable" by the definition, what made SL so special?
    I think that recent versions of the Mac OS have been extremely stable.

    However, because so few people opt to do a clean install of recent versions of the OS, it's possible to get a highly unstable (extremely slow, buggy, with lots of rotating beachballs) installation that has outdated stay-resident software that has been left behind, causing a software conflict, which is difficult or impossible to isolate.

    This doesn't happen a "lot", but it happens often enough that it gives recent versions of the Mac OS a bad rap. On just about every Mac discussion list that I'm on, I hear from one or two folks a week who have just upgraded their OS and their Mac is now either terribly slow or terribly buggy. Doing a clean install always fixes it.

    This never happened under Snow Leopard because folks did an Archive and Install upgrade to it and there were no problems.

    And, yes, Snow Leopard was extremely stable. It may not have been more stable than a **clean install** of, for instance High Sierra, but it was the first version of OS X for which Disk Warrior was just about never necessary (and only then for the rare case of a severely corrupted directory on a failing hard drive, which wasn't the OS's fault). Snow Leopard, which just a touch of routine maintenance, was extremely trouble free.
    Randy B. Singer
    Co-author of The Macintosh Bible (4th, 5th, and 6th editions)
    Mac OS X Routine Maintenance • http://www.macattorney.com/ts.html

  9. #39
    Why all this resistance to updating/upgrading ?
    MacInWin's Avatar
    Member Since
    Jan 01, 2009
    Location
    Winchester, VA
    Posts
    5,854
    Your Mac's Specs
    MBP 15" Mid 2015, iPhone XS, an iMac, plus ATVs, AWatch, MacMini
    Randy, according to this: https://discussions.apple.com/thread/2362057 the Archive and Install was not available for SL. Which is why I don't remember it at all. I started with Leopard and my first upgrade was to SL, so I did an install in place then and it worked well. So that mystery is cleared up!
    Jake

  10. #40
    Why all this resistance to updating/upgrading ?
    Randy B. Singer's Avatar
    Member Since
    Feb 01, 2011
    Location
    Sacramento, California
    Posts
    1,525
    Quote Originally Posted by MacInWin View Post
    ...if others want to reminisce about the "good old days," my experience is that nothing will ever disabuse them of the selective memory of times gone by.
    Except that folks such as myself aren't looking backward through rose-colored glasses. I have an office full of Macs, with macOS 10.12, 10.13, and 10.14 running on them. And I have one iMac with OS X 10.6 on it. I have no problem directly comparing them. I do it every day. Nothing is being romanticized.

    One other thing...my iMac running Snow Leopard is full of Adobe products. Adobe can drop dead before I'll be spending thousands of dollars to upgrade that software that works perfectly on that old Mac. If that old iMac dies I'll just purchase another old iMac for a couple hundred dollars to keep all of that expensive legacy software running. There's nothing in more recent versions of the Mac OS that I feel that I'm missing when using that old iMac.
    Randy B. Singer
    Co-author of The Macintosh Bible (4th, 5th, and 6th editions)
    Mac OS X Routine Maintenance • http://www.macattorney.com/ts.html

  11. #41
    Why all this resistance to updating/upgrading ?
    Randy B. Singer's Avatar
    Member Since
    Feb 01, 2011
    Location
    Sacramento, California
    Posts
    1,525
    Quote Originally Posted by MacInWin View Post
    Randy, according to this: https://discussions.apple.com/thread/2362057 the Archive and Install was not available for SL.
    So? It was probably the first OS that didn't offer the option, so there was little or no cruft left behind by the older versions of the OS. It's certainly a problem now.
    Randy B. Singer
    Co-author of The Macintosh Bible (4th, 5th, and 6th editions)
    Mac OS X Routine Maintenance • http://www.macattorney.com/ts.html

  12. #42
    Why all this resistance to updating/upgrading ?
    MacInWin's Avatar
    Member Since
    Jan 01, 2009
    Location
    Winchester, VA
    Posts
    5,854
    Your Mac's Specs
    MBP 15" Mid 2015, iPhone XS, an iMac, plus ATVs, AWatch, MacMini
    Maybe not you, Randy, but I have see lots of comments here and elsewhere rhapsodizing over SL. I totally understand your business use and sympathize about Adobe. I run a virtual machine with Win7 on it because I have a business printer for my wife's business that would cost well over $10,000 to replace and the drivers for it were last updated for Win7 (never for Mac). So I keep Win 7 limping along to do that one print job every week. If/when Apple abandons Intel for its own chips then I will have to make some hard decisions about what to do. I may have to use one of the older Macs I have to run Win7. (Or convince my wife to retire and sell the business. Yeah, right.)

    Hey, I said I was done with this. So I'm going to make that my last comment in this thread. Good discussion.
    Jake

  13. #43
    Why all this resistance to updating/upgrading ?
    pm-r's Avatar
    Member Since
    Oct 16, 2010
    Location
    Brentwood Bay, BC, Canada
    Posts
    11,295
    the Archive and Install was not available for SL.

    It seems it was available with Tiger according to this and Archive and Install:
    This chapter is from the book
    Mac OS X Help Line, Tiger EditionMac OS X Help Line, Tiger Edition
    Installing or Reinstalling Mac OS X | Installing, Upgrading, Backing Up, and Restoring Mac OS X | Peachpit

    I had forgotten about that older Mac OS X install option, and maybe it was available even earlier.


    EDIT:
    Gee, it seems that the Mac OS X "Archive and Install" has been available almost from the begining when I read sections from here, complete with several restrictions:
    General advice on performing an Archive and Install
    General advice on performing an Archive and Install

    Anyway, that's old history and we sure don't have such a choice these days.






    - Patrick
    ======
    Last edited by pm-r; 01-29-2019 at 12:08 AM.

  14. #44
    Why all this resistance to updating/upgrading ?
    Rod Sprague's Avatar
    Member Since
    Jun 12, 2011
    Location
    Melbourne, Australia and Ubud, Bali, Indonesia
    Posts
    4,795
    Your Mac's Specs
    MacBook Pro Retina 13" macOSX 10.13.3 beta
    I note Randy that you take exception to my statement, "There is also resistance to backing up to iCloud. I bought and continue to pay a monthly fee of AU$1.99 for increased iCloud storage primarily to backup our combined 6 devices in case of loss or unavailability of our local backups and the encryption option offered to preserve settings and passwords'.

    I would argue that iCloud has had a pretty good track record as far as security goes. Phishing attempts aside. I am not suggesting that one save sensitive documents directly to iCloud either, personally I only sync Reminders, Notes, Contacts, Calendars, iCloud Drive and Find My Mac/iPhone/iPad/Watch, the latter I think would be a silly thing to ignore but of course that's up to the individual. It is hard to avoid being signed into iCloud in some form because nowadays you will be continually pestered to do so in the form of notifications.

    I DO NOT sync my Desktop or Documents folders directly to iCloud. My Documents Folder is contained in a password protected encrypted .dmg (disk image) which I created with Disc Utility and stored in OneDrive. Yes I have to update it occasionally but even out of date it still contains a host of paperwork I would hate to loose. So even if iCloud were breached and all my data was hacked the hackers would still be faced with cracking an encrypted disk image to access my personal files.

    I do an encrypted sync of my iOS devices using iTunes once a month to iCloud and a weekly encrypted sync of my iOS devices to my MBP using iMazing.
    This gives me local flexibility and an emergency remote backup which includes passwords, preferences and settings.

    Much of my reasoning is based on my "disaster plan", living as I do half of the year in Bali, a volcanic island subject to volcanic eruptions and tsunami.
    What would I do in the event of a large earthquake or flood? Hopefully I would have time to grab my iPhone off the bedside table and that might be all.
    My TM backup, clone and laptop could all be lost being in various drawers and locations.
    It's possible even my iPhone might be lost in the ensuing confusion.

    So after we are eventually secure and perhaps returned to Australia how do I get back all my data if i have no Mac devices at all?
    I figured first I would just buy a new iPhone, login to my Apple account (my ID password is complex but memorable). I could then restore my iPhone from my iCloud backup albeit I know it would be slow.

    This would include my Password Manager which is backed up to iCloud so I would now have access to any other logins required. I can restore my email accounts from iCloud backup and the mail from the servers.

    My photos can be retrieved from Google Photos later as can my documents and the various third party apps I own once I have a laptop running and can access the receipts, CD Keys, passwords etc from my saved Documents Folder.

    So in a week I could be pretty much back to where I am now minus some data like media files I downloaded but nothing important.

    So my point here is; consider a major disaster, a fire or a flood or even just theft. Consider you were away from home at the time and all you had was your iPhone and maybe not even that.
    How would you get back all your precious data?

    If you have a plan, like a bootable clone in a bank vault somewhere, good for you, if not I challenge you to think of another viable way without relying on a cloud based remote backup.

    If you don't have a plan, well that's okay too unless you really don't want to loose any of your data in which case i suggest you make one soon.

    This is just how I do it, I'm sure others have different plans, I'd love to hear what they are. Personally I think my system is fairly fool proof but if anyone has any suggestions I'm certainly open the hear them.
    I used to be conceited but now I'm perfect.

  15. #45
    Sort of a last comment from me on this topic...

    It's not that I want to reminisce about the "good old days", I was simply looking for the next logical, stable release to upgrade all the family Macs to.
    Seems my the best bet is High Sierra since almost all of them still use rotational hard drives and it's unlikely they will ever be upgraded to SSD's.

    Maybe that will also resolve my "quirks" with El Capitan and I will definitely do a clean install.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Updating/upgrading pain in the b***
    By Beejaw in forum Switcher Hangout
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: 01-24-2013, 06:00 AM
  2. Unibody MBP scratch resistance?
    By wirelessmacuser in forum Apple Notebooks
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: 01-31-2010, 07:58 PM
  3. Replies: 2
    Last Post: 09-15-2008, 05:21 PM
  4. Key resistance
    By hotdog182 in forum Apple Notebooks
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 07-14-2008, 11:06 AM
  5. FS:PS3 +Resistance and Tekken5!!
    By Game2954 in forum Buy/Sell/Trade
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 02-19-2007, 11:03 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •