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  1. #16
    Why all this resistance to updating/upgrading ?
    Rod Sprague's Avatar
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    I really don't mean to be harsh on those people who make mistakes in regard to updating or backup. I always try to be diplomatic, sympathetic and understanding of thier plight. What I find harder to accept is deliberate avoidance of what is plainly the easiest answer to tthier problems due to beliefs based on erroneous rumour, wacky conspiracy theories and plain old pig headedness.


    Sent from my iPad using Mac-Forums
    I used to be conceited but now I'm perfect.

  2. #17
    Why all this resistance to updating/upgrading ?
    ferrarr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rod Sprague View Post
    I surprised and disappointed that the Apple store staff would not inform a customer of those steps before allowing them to trade in a device. Really sad to loose all your photos because of an oversight.


    Sent from my iPad using Mac-Forums
    The Apple staff really shouldn't have to confirm what the customer did or didn't do. They ask, "if the customer has all their important data backed up", and that should be good enough. Personal responsibility for the amount of knowledge someone puts into a tool they use, is their crux to bear.

    It's like the users that come here and say "I need help". With no information about; device, OS, app, and all the other minutia that is needed to diagnose issues. They don't comprehend the model years and product models specs are so different.
    -- Bob --
    Please backup. Everything has a life cycle, unexpected and warning free. Nothing will last as long as you want it to.

  3. #18
    Why all this resistance to updating/upgrading ?
    lclev's Avatar
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    And that is why we have to be patient. The majority of users just want their devices to work - forever. They have no clue what they need to do to maintain their device or how to backup their data - and they really do not worry about it...until the device malfunctions. And they blame the company that made it.

    The smarter users decide to learn how to take care of and backup their device and thus post on the forums to gain knowledge. Those are the ones we get here. They may not know what info we need or how to frame their questions - but they are willing to try. And that is a good thing.

    Lisa
    Recommend using Onyx to clean your Mac.
    If you have been helped, please add to their reputation by clicking on the icon in the lower left hand corner of the post.

  4. #19
    I'm one who is hesitant to upgrade Mac OSs.
    I have been on a Mac since OS 6, that's a long time, and I typically upgrade all Macs in the family only every three of four releases.
    I remember when Apple went from OS 9 to OS 10.1, everyone kept pushing me to get on board with the new OS, but in retospect it turned out that 10.1 was a bit of a mess.
    In the past, there were some Mac OS versions that were perceived to be more stable than others.
    Tiger was one and I stayed there for a while, the next was SnowLeopard which Apple themselves actually called a 'clean-up' release at the time - few new features but a rewrite of a lot of the existing code.
    My older Macs actually ran faster on SL than on Tiger.

    One of the main reasons I don't upgrade with each new OS are compatibility issues with applications and capabilities that just disappear with the new OS.
    The biggest problem I find, from my point of view, that I have not found a recent conciose and accurate document that will tell one which applications/features/capabilities have changed/disappeared in a new OS compared to the previous one.
    There used to be a website, now that I think of it, that showed compatibility of a long list of applications; that was a start but it also listed many as being partially compatible which didn't give me a warm and fuzzy fealing.
    I have been thinking that a concise resource like that would be good to have in this forum.

    I recently changed one user from a 2011 MacBook pro to a 2017 MacBook Air, both running the same OS, El Capitan.
    Didn't really expect to run into any issues since we kept the same OS, but.....
    1. Apple Mail no longer worked. It was set up to automatically detect and maintain account settings on the 2011 MBp but had to be reconfigured to work again
    2. The user also had bought a few games from the Apple store, they no longer worked when just changing hardware. Took a while to get those back since we had trouble logging into the Apple store
    3. None of the MS Office 2011 applications worked. I ended up reinstalling all of them.

    So, there three things are now fixed, but I didn't expect any one of them to stop working.
    And there are dozens and dozens of other applications on that Mac, for some of them we will only find out months later that something won't work.
    Talking about MS Office 2011, it was posted earlier:
    I know that when I move on to macOS 10.15.X, I will have to give up several apps that I like and use often. One of them is MS Office 2011. I refuse to update to Office 2016 or 2019 for various reasons. But I know that I will find a substitute for Office 2011 that will work for me just as well.
    Any suggestions as to a substitute?
    For PowerPoint I have tried Keynotes and the PPT equivalents in LibreOffice, NeoOffice and others - none will show all charts in exactly the same way as Power Point.
    Sometimes part of the text is missing or text runs into images.

    But besides application compatibility, I also worry about features and/or capabilities that Apple has decided to eliminate (without telling anyone)...I put that in brackets, maybe there is an Apple document that covers that.
    What usually happens is that I want to do something that I have done a million times before and it does not work.
    Then after some googling I find out....oh, this is no longer supported on the OS I upgraded to.
    Last capability I "lost" was trying to read a batch of old floppies I found. I had bought an external floppy USB drive when Apple decided to get rid of floppy drives on Macs. That was fine, I have no problems with that, technology moves on. But somewhere between SnowLeopard and ElCapitan, Apple decided to no longer support external USB floppy drives - I don't remember Apple making an announcement about that.
    Now I'm wondering when my external USB DVD drive will be next.

    This post is getting rather long, but I can tell you, if I hadn't been burned in the past, I would be much more inclined to upgrade the OS on a regular basis.

    PS: BTW - I do backup all Macs on a regular basis, I also tend to make sure the OS I'm running is the latest version, but on the other hand, I don't always upgrade to the latest version of Firefox having had problems doing that in the past.

  5. #20
    Why all this resistance to updating/upgrading ?
    MacInWin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by krs View Post
    I'm one who is hesitant to upgrade Mac OSs.
    I have been on a Mac since OS 6, that's a long time, and I typically upgrade all Macs in the family only every three of four releases.
    I remember when Apple went from OS 9 to OS 10.1, everyone kept pushing me to get on board with the new OS, but in retospect it turned out that 10.1 was a bit of a mess.
    In the past, there were some Mac OS versions that were perceived to be more stable than others.
    Tiger was one and I stayed there for a while, the next was SnowLeopard which Apple themselves actually called a 'clean-up' release at the time - few new features but a rewrite of a lot of the existing code.
    My older Macs actually ran faster on SL than on Tiger.

    One of the main reasons I don't upgrade with each new OS are compatibility issues with applications and capabilities that just disappear with the new OS.
    The biggest problem I find, from my point of view, that I have not found a recent conciose and accurate document that will tell one which applications/features/capabilities have changed/disappeared in a new OS compared to the previous one.
    There used to be a website, now that I think of it, that showed compatibility of a long list of applications; that was a start but it also listed many as being partially compatible which didn't give me a warm and fuzzy fealing.
    The website is called RoaringApps and is at https://roaringapps.com/ .
    I have been thinking that a concise resource like that would be good to have in this forum.

    I recently changed one user from a 2011 MacBook pro to a 2017 MacBook Air, both running the same OS, El Capitan.
    Didn't really expect to run into any issues since we kept the same OS, but.....
    1. Apple Mail no longer worked. It was set up to automatically detect and maintain account settings on the 2011 MBp but had to be reconfigured to work again
    2. The user also had bought a few games from the Apple store, they no longer worked when just changing hardware. Took a while to get those back since we had trouble logging into the Apple store
    3. None of the MS Office 2011 applications worked. I ended up reinstalling all of them.
    You didn't mention the names of the games, but for MS products, the anti-piracy setup from MS requires re-registration whenever the hardware is changed. Not an Apple problem, but MS. As for Mail, it sort of varies from ISP to ISP. Some monitor the system hardware and if it changes require a re-set and re-setup as a security feature. Apple, in particular, watches for hardware changes that way. My email provider does not do that checking, so I can move from one machine to another with no issues at all.

    So, there three things are now fixed, but I didn't expect any one of them to stop working.
    And there are dozens and dozens of other applications on that Mac, for some of them we will only find out months later that something won't work.
    Talking about MS Office 2011, it was posted earlier:

    Any suggestions as to a substitute?
    For PowerPoint I have tried Keynotes and the PPT equivalents in LibreOffice, NeoOffice and others - none will show all charts in exactly the same way as Power Point.
    Sometimes part of the text is missing or text runs into images.

    But besides application compatibility, I also worry about features and/or capabilities that Apple has decided to eliminate (without telling anyone)...I put that in brackets, maybe there is an Apple document that covers that.
    Yes, there usually is a release document at Apple.com for the release, but it doesn't address what third party applications work because that is up to the developer to provide as they decide what to do. Apple does have a beta program for developers to participate in the development and testing of their own applications in the new environment. If they choose not to participate, it's their own issue. Now, for the OS itself, there is a public beta if the functions/features are important to you. I have not been with Mac that long (I came in at Leopard), but the changes in function from then to now (Mojave) have not been that drastic. The biggest changes are in the security aspects, where Apple has been putting more and more locks on the system files as a protection for the naive users that don't always know what they are doing. (Particularly the influx of former Windows users who think they need system cleaners/antivirus/tuneup/whatever kinds of utilities that ended up making more problems because the mucked with critical system files. One in particular was CleanMyMac that erased all the "unnecessary" language files and basically killed the OS.) Those lockdowns restrict what sophisticated users can do, which could be frustrating, but I've adjusted as it's happened.
    What usually happens is that I want to do something that I have done a million times before and it does not work.
    Then after some googling I find out....oh, this is no longer supported on the OS I upgraded to.
    Last capability I "lost" was trying to read a batch of old floppies I found. I had bought an external floppy USB drive when Apple decided to get rid of floppy drives on Macs. That was fine, I have no problems with that, technology moves on. But somewhere between SnowLeopard and ElCapitan, Apple decided to no longer support external USB floppy drives - I don't remember Apple making an announcement about that.
    Something must be wrong with your setup. I have a MBPr, mid-2015, running Mojave 10.14.3 (updated as of today!), and I just now attached a USB 3.25 floppy drive and read the disc in it with no issues. It was dead slow, but that's probably because of the media, not the setup. (Or maybe my standards for speed have changed?) However, it worked. So, it should work for you.
    Now I'm wondering when my external USB DVD drive will be next.

    This post is getting rather long, but I can tell you, if I hadn't been burned in the past, I would be much more inclined to upgrade the OS on a regular basis.

    PS: BTW - I do backup all Macs on a regular basis, I also tend to make sure the OS I'm running is the latest version, but on the other hand, I don't always upgrade to the latest version of Firefox having had problems doing that in the past.
    Understand the burned feeling. It's why I now make multiple backups, and why I store stuff off-site. But with a bit of planning and a willingness to adjust to change, keeping up to date is a good thing, IMHO. Is it perfect? Nope! I just recently wanted to play an old game again but when I broke out the CD, it needed Rosetta, which disappeared a long time ago, or WinXP which is also gone. Oh, well, that's what they call progress. Put it aside and moving on.

    But, it's a free country, so you can do what you want. But the further behind you are, the harder it is going to be to get newer stuff to work and the riskier it gets for you online as the developers stop supporting your system.
    Jake

  6. #21
    Yes, RoaringApps was the website I was thinking of.
    Thanks.

    As to games, the first game we tried was Full Deck Solitaire - either the SD cloning had a problem with this or changing hardware triggered the message that the app cvould not be opened because it was corrupt.

    The MS requirement to require re-registration is a pain. Are there other companies that require that as well when changing hardware?

    As to the problem reading old floppies - I have a TEAC FD-05PUB that I have always used with previous versions of the OS. It didnít work with ElCapitan.
    Canít remember exactly what happened and would have to see if I can find another old floppy to try to duplicate the problem.
    For the time being I used an iMac with an older macOS I had sitting around, got off the floppies what I wanted and turfed the floppies after that.

    I also have an external USB ZIP drive and a few ZIP cartridges that I have to check to see what is on them.

    As to keeping the OS up-to-date.
    If OS 10.14 is the last macOS to support MS Office 2011, that may just be the OS version I move all the current Macs to - especially since 10.14 may also be as far as I can take my 2012 MacMini.

  7. #22
    Why all this resistance to updating/upgrading ?
    MacInWin's Avatar
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    As to games, the first game we tried was Full Deck Solitaire - either the SD cloning had a problem with this or changing hardware triggered the message that the app cvould not be opened because it was corrupt.
    Sounds like the copy process created a problem somewhere. Good that you got it going again.
    The MS requirement to require re-registration is a pain. Are there other companies that require that as well when changing hardware?
    Yep, Adobe does that I know about personally. There may be others. Typically it's the "expensive" software developers who take more aggressive anti-piracy measures.

    Again, with Office it's your decision about what to do. I use Office365 because for US$10/month I get six copies, plus each user gets access to One Drive for up to 1T each. That's pretty reasonable to me. I get all the updates (usually about once a month or so) for all the office products (Word, Excel, Powerpoint, Outlook, etc). Right now I have three copies installed with three 1T One Drive accounts, all for that $10.

    My FD is a USB from Sabrent. And as I said, it works perfectly, if slowly. Takes forever to finally mount the floppy. Sounds like it's reading the entire disk before it mounts. However, once mounted, the files are read from it fairly quickly. There are no special drivers for it, it's just a USB drive. If the TEAC has died, you might look for a Sabrent. https://www.amazon.com/Sabrent-Exter...disk+drive+usb

    I don't have any connection to Amazon or Sabrent, just a happy customer.
    Jake

  8. #23
    Why all this resistance to updating/upgrading ?
    Rod Sprague's Avatar
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    Please understand that this is just my personal opinion but it has always seemed to be easier to stay up to date in small increments. Before OSX system upgrades were sometimes accompanied by dramatic changes. OS 8 to OS 9 for example but since OSX the Upgrades have been punctuated by Updates. 10.1.1. followed by 10.1.2 and so on. Each update usually included a security update and a few new features or bug fixes from the previous version. Little changed in the way of function and if it did it was heralded by articles on the topic if one was interested enough to look. I never did an upgrade or major update before performing a quick search for; eg. what's new in OSX 10.1.2. that way I was prepared and if necessary could postpone the process until I found a workaround or replacement for an outdated or incompatible app. Or sometimes understood how to perform an old task in a new way. There was seldom more than one "change" that effected me immediately. If however I waited to update OSX 10.1.1 until OSX 10.2.0 there may be five things I need to learn or accommodate. If I let this put me off updating I could find myself in the position many find themselves in. Suddenly they are running an unsupported macOS, the next version is no longer available and the current version has so many new features altered compatibilities with both software and hardware (iOS devices in particular) that they turn on the developers, blaming them for making life difficult when in reality they (the developers) are just keeping up with technology. Lots of little steps are easier than one or a couple of big steps. The gap gets wider every day.


    Sent from my iPhone
    I used to be conceited but now I'm perfect.

  9. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Rod Sprague View Post
    Please understand that this is just my personal opinion but it has always seemed to be easier to stay up to date in small increments. Before OSX system upgrades were sometimes accompanied by dramatic changes. OS 8 to OS 9 for example but since OSX the Upgrades have been punctuated by Updates. 10.1.1. followed by 10.1.2 and so on. Each update usually included a security update and a few new features or bug fixes from the previous version. Little changed in the way of function and if it did it was heralded by articles on the topic if one was interested enough to look. I never did an upgrade or major update before performing a quick search for; eg. what's new in OSX 10.1.2. that way I was prepared and if necessary could postpone the process until I found a workaround or replacement for an outdated or incompatible app. Or sometimes understood how to perform an old task in a new way. There was seldom more than one "change" that effected me immediately. If however I waited to update OSX 10.1.1 until OSX 10.2.0 there may be five things I need to learn or accommodate. If I let this put me off updating I could find myself in the position many find themselves in. Suddenly they are running an unsupported macOS, the next version is no longer available and the current version has so many new features altered compatibilities with both software and hardware (iOS devices in particular) that they turn on the developers, blaming them for making life difficult when in reality they (the developers) are just keeping up with technology. Lots of little steps are easier than one or a couple of big steps. The gap gets wider every day.
    ^wisdom
    -Jonathan
    iMac (27-inch, Late 2012) - 2.9 GHz Intel Core i5
    MacBook Air (13-inch, Mid 2012) - 1.8 GHz Intel Core i5

  10. #25
    Why all this resistance to updating/upgrading ?
    Randy B. Singer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rod Sprague View Post
    In the last week I have posted to at least 5 threads where OP's have demonstrated an unwillingness to update or upgrade their devices.
    You've opened up a huge kettle of fish, and I only have a small amount of time to address some of your points. I created an entire Web page to address many of them:

    Upgrading To The Very Latest Macintosh Operating System
    Upgrading To The Very Latest Macintosh Operating System

    I don't think that most users cling to OS X 10.6 (Snow Leopard) because they are necessarily enthusiasts of that version of the Mac OS (though it was an extraordinarily stable version of the Mac OS). I think that many folks had a huge investment in PowerPC software (Snow Leopard being the last version of the Mac OS that included Rosetta, and thus could make use of PowerPC apps) and that they 1) don't want to lose it, and 2)much of it is irreplaceable. For instance, I have an old iMac running Snow Leopard in my office mostly to keep OmniPage Pro available. OPP is a far more advanced OCR program than any OCR program currently available, and OPP never made it past Snow Leopard. I also have a couple more programs like that in Snow Leopard. Snow Leopard runs very nicely, and the old iMac it is running on is plenty fast...I could still use it as my primary computer if I wanted to, and sometimes do.

    There are lots of reasons that folks don't want to upgrade to the latest version of the Mac OS. One of the biggest ones is that since Apple did away with the ability to do an "Archive and Install." it has become way too common for an ordinary "install in place" upgrade to result in decreased performance. The problem can be avoided by doing a "clean install" instead, but Apple has made that too much of a chore. (But a clean install usually results in a performance increase, not a performance decrease.) It would be great if Apple brought back the ability to do an Archive and Install; without it many users don't want to take the chance that upgrading will cause problems.

    Another problem is that rotating disk hard drives, especially older ones, like to decide to fail when worked really hard. A major upgrade of the Mac OS will work a rotating disk hard drive really hard. Sometimes it's just better to leave things alone.

    Doing a major upgrade of one's OS is no longer quick or dead easy. Especially if you do it right and backup first and do a clean install. What are the benefits? For many they are negligible. Since many of us only hold on to a Mac for three to five years, why even bother? After a few years we'll just get a new Mac anyway, and it will COME WITH a system upgrade.

    Note too that Mojave converts all internal hard drives to the new APFS, even rotating disk hard drives. My personal opinion is that APFS isn't optimal for RDHD's. If one has a RDHD, it might be best to stop at High Sierra at most.

    Why do some people prefer not to use iCloud? You can't figure this out? Have you missed all the news stories about how many security breaches there have been with cloud services? And the cloud as a backup is a huge bottleneck if you want to restore a lot of data. Plus, some folks just don't like the subscription model. A local hard drive to back up to or to offload data to makes a lot of sense to some users.

    I think that most of the above points might merit their own discussion threads. They've each been discussed at length on other forums.
    Randy B. Singer
    Co-author of The Macintosh Bible (4th, 5th, and 6th editions)
    Mac OS X Routine Maintenance ē http://www.macattorney.com/ts.html

  11. #26
    Why all this resistance to updating/upgrading ?
    IWT's Avatar
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    @Randy,

    In other words, each to their own. Which is a fair and reasonable point.

    One aspect you didn't touch on, and which is highly relevant for many users - is if a person decides to stick with Snow Leopard or even a later OS like El Capitan or Mavericks, they will find that their shiny new iPhone/iPad no longer syncs with their Mac (iTunes, Photos etc).

    Then the only Backup (BU) options are iCloud or a third party app such as iMazing.

    Apple has designed an ecosystem which, like it or hate it, means that all components of that system need to be commensurate with each other.

    I much appreciate the time & effort you give to our Forums. I was just adding a codicil, so to speak

    Ian
    Ian

  12. #27
    Why all this resistance to updating/upgrading ?
    MacInWin's Avatar
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    Randy, you said:
    Why do some people prefer not to use iCloud? You can't figure this out? Have you missed all the news stories about how many security breaches there have been with cloud services? And the cloud as a backup is a huge bottleneck if you want to restore a lot of data. Plus, some folks just don't like the subscription model. A local hard drive to back up to or to offload data to makes a lot of sense to some users.
    But that same issue, security, is a greater problem with older, unsupported versions of the OS because those older versions don't get updates to fix security issues and block new threats. There have been some security issues with some cloud services, but I can only think of the one that Apple had when some celebrity accounts were breached in 2014. Since then Apple has instituted 2FA, which for some strange reason, some folks still resist, to prevent that same style breach. Since then, nothing.

    I don't know much about "Archive and Install" but my install method is to make a thorough backup, test it, and then do a nuke/pave install every other upgrade. I'll do one "in place" upgrade because it's easier, but nuke/pave the next. You said that:
    The problem can be avoided by doing a "clean install" instead, but Apple has made that too much of a chore.
    I don't think it is so much Apple that made it a chore as it is that vendors like Adobe and Microsoft have put such tight restrictions on registration (for anti-piracy reasons) that it is a chore to re-register their products. Cloning with CCC, testing that clone and restoring from it with Migration Assistant is not really much of a "chore," actually. But then having to contact Adobe and MS to re-authorize their software is a pain. Office365 makes it easier, but Adobe is still Adobe.
    Jake

  13. #28
    Why all this resistance to updating/upgrading ?
    MacInWin's Avatar
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    Had a couple of lingering thoughts about this topic. Randy pointed out that a clean install generally results in a faster machine, which was true in rotating hard drive days, but the difference in an SSD environment is going to be much, much smaller. A clean install is still a good idea every so often, but the "install in place" penalty in performance is much reduced in an SSD machine.

    Also, Randy is dead on with his caution about APFS and rotating drives. APFS will drive rotating drives much harder than HFS+. Have a read of what OWC thinks: https://blog.macsales.com/43043-usin...ht-not-want-to
    Jake

  14. #29
    I must say, I can relate perfectly to what Randy posted.

    SnowLeopard was the last macOS release that was not only extremely stable but also the last release where every feature and option we use worked as expected,
    The only reason we updated was because some Webinar software we use several times a week was no longer compatible with SL.

    We have about six or so Macs currently in use in the family, desktops and laptops, that are mostly used by people who just want the computer to work. I’m the only one with a bit of technical background, so I would like all the Macs to run on the same OS release to make trouble shooting a bit easier. So upgrading all of them every time a new OS comes out is not really practical since all Macs tend to be of different vintages and run different applications.
    I would like to find a new “extremely stable” OS I can migrate all of them to (along the lines of SL) but that doesn’t seem to exist yet.
    All Macs except one still use the rotating hard drives, only one uses an SSD. So it seems the best bet right now is to move everyone to High Sierra.

  15. #30
    Why all this resistance to updating/upgrading ?
    pm-r's Avatar
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    SnowLeopard was the last macOS release that was not only extremely stable but also the last release where every feature and option we use worked as expected,
    The only reason we updated was because some Webinar software we use several times a week was no longer compatible with SL.

    And the only thing I needed with Snow Leopard that it didn't include was AppleTalk or any support we needed to run our old reliable HP 4ML Laserjet Mac serial network printer, but I guess that's starting to push things a bit too far into old software, but many still relied on it back in thos days.





    - Patrick
    ======

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