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Thread: After Mojave

  1. #31
    After Mojave
    Lifeisabeach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ferrarr View Post
    Not in more current versions of macOS. I “believe” El Capitan or Sierra, were the last versions to display those. Which may have to do with APFS?
    Nah, it has nothing to do with APFS. I can see the old versions on High Sierra and I have APFS in use on this iMac. It appears to have something to do with Apple moving the OS updates to the System Preferences. I found an article that provides download links to all the old versions of OS X. Those links are culled from Apple's support pages. When you click the link, the App Store will open up and show you the page and download button for that version of OS X. On my iMac running High Sierra, clicking download gets me the usual installer. But on my MacBook Air running Mojave, clicking download for High Sierra launches the System Update module in System Preferences, which in turn gave me a warning asking me if I really want to download that older update. I shrugged my shoulders and clicked on Yes, figuring it wouldn't actually do it. Well it did start downloading it and I wound up cancelling the download. I don't know what would have happened if I followed it all the way through. Maybe it would have initiated a full reinstall of High Sierra over Mojave. Maybe it would have just dropped the installer in my Applications folder like it would have been the old way. Maybe it was trying to just download an update combo and would have completely hosed my system once applied. I have no idea right now. I may give that another whirl and follow it through to see what happens after updating my backup clone of the MBA this weekend.

    Please verify and include the exact model/year of your Mac and OS X version number (available from "About This Mac", then "More Info" on the Apple menu).
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  2. #32
    After Mojave
    chscag's Avatar
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    Yeah, Apple has made it difficult to go backwards. And unless you saved all those older versions of macOS on installer flash drives, they're probably gone forever. I'm also not happy about Apple abandoning 32 bit apps with the next version of macOS.

    But wait.... the fun will really begin when Apple notifies everyone that they're giving up on Intel and will go to ARM chipsets. Seems like we've been through that route before.

  3. #33
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    Groovetube's Avatar
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    I know in the pro world this future move to arm processors has many very spooked. Including myself.

  4. #34
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    I'm not sure it will happen as soon as the "Apple Watchers" have predicted. We just saw a round of new iMacs including an option to go with an i9 processor and we will likely see a new Mac Pro later this Summer. Apple ARM chips are powerful and work real well in iOS devices but Apple has yet to prove they can match Intel when it comes to Notebook and Desktop power.

  5. #35
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    pm-r's Avatar
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    I found an article that provides download links to all the old versions of OS X.
    Great Mac OS X download resource site and many should bookmark it:
    How to download older versions of macOS after Mojave was released | The WP Guru

    Thanks, for those who can use and might need it at some point.

    - Patrick
    ======

  6. #36
    After Mojave
    Randy B. Singer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chscag View Post
    Apple ARM chips are powerful and work real well in iOS devices but Apple has yet to prove they can match Intel when it comes to Notebook and Desktop power.
    Apple's ARM chips are ALREADY in several Mac models, as co-processors. And Apple's A12X chip is ALREADY a desktop strength processor.

    What Apple doesn't have yet is a chip with Xenon-levels of performance. And given that Apple is due to release an all-new Mac Pro soon, my guess is that Apple has to stick with Intel Xenon chips for the Mac Pro, at the minimum, for the foreseeable future. If Apple were going to drop Intel processors wholesale, I don't think that they would be releasing a new Mac Pro just now.

    The thing that folks are worried about is a wholesale switch from Intel to ARM, similar to the switch from PowerPC to Intel or from Motorola to PowerPC. Given that Apple is already putting more and more powerful ARM chips in their Macs as co-processors, I think that what is most likely for the foreseeable future is that Apple will continue to use Intel processors for backwards compatibility, and pair them with ARM co-processors for performance and advanced features. So I don't think that anyone needs to get all paranoid anytime soon.

    Have a look at:
    How the Mac will go ARM | iMore
    Randy B. Singer
    Co-author of The Macintosh Bible (4th, 5th, and 6th editions)
    Mac OS X Routine Maintenance ē http://www.macattorney.com/ts.html

  7. #37
    After Mojave
    Lifeisabeach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randy B. Singer View Post
    Apple's ARM chips are ALREADY in several Mac models, as co-processors. And Apple's A12X chip is ALREADY a desktop strength processor.

    What Apple doesn't have yet is a chip with Xenon-levels of performance. And given that Apple is due to release an all-new Mac Pro soon, my guess is that Apple has to stick with Intel Xenon chips for the Mac Pro, at the minimum, for the foreseeable future. If Apple were going to drop Intel processors wholesale, I don't think that they would be releasing a new Mac Pro just now.

    The thing that folks are worried about is a wholesale switch from Intel to ARM, similar to the switch from PowerPC to Intel or from Motorola to PowerPC. Given that Apple is already putting more and more powerful ARM chips in their Macs as co-processors, I think that what is most likely for the foreseeable future is that Apple will continue to use Intel processors for backwards compatibility, and pair them with ARM co-processors for performance and advanced features. So I don't think that anyone needs to get all paranoid anytime soon.

    Have a look at:
    How the Mac will go ARM | iMore
    Yeah, I don't see Apple going all-in on ARM anytime soon, if ever. Maintaining the option to dual-boot Windows is a pretty big carrot to lure buyers. What I would not be surprised to see though is Apple making their own x86 compatible chips rather than rely on Intel or AMD, especially if they can push them to higher performance levels than what either Intel or AMD have been doing.

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  8. #38
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    Yeah, I don't see Apple going all-in on ARM anytime soon, if ever. Maintaining the option to dual-boot Windows is a pretty big carrot to lure buyers. What I would not be surprised to see though is Apple making their own x86 compatible chips rather than rely on Intel or AMD, especially if they can push them to higher performance levels than what either Intel or AMD have been doing.
    LOL, I can see it now..... The mother of all intellectual property suits: Intel vs Apple! Both have enough lawyers to fill a good size baseball park.

  9. #39
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    Frankly what might make better sense would be for Apple to partner with VMWare or Parallels or even Oracle to create an Intel emulator that would work in the ARM world. A kind of Rosetta like back during the shift from PowerPC to Intel. If they let the third parties do the emulation, then they don't have to worry about maintaining it like they did Rosetta, so there would be no reason for it to be dropped like Rosetta. Better that than spending a metric crap-ton of money on lawyers.
    Jake

  10. #40
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    Randy B. Singer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lifeisabeach View Post
    Yeah, I don't see Apple going all-in on ARM anytime soon, if ever. Maintaining the option to dual-boot Windows is a pretty big carrot to lure buyers.

    I agree. It's not that Bootcamp (which is free) is a great way to go in actuality (it requires re-booting to switch OS's and you can't run both simultaneously), it's just that it makes former Windows users feel good about buying a Mac, knowing that they can run Windows if they feel that they have to. It's a huge selling feature.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lifeisabeach View Post
    What I would not be surprised to see though is Apple making their own x86 compatible chips rather than rely on Intel or AMD, especially if they can push them to higher performance levels than what either Intel or AMD have been doing.
    I'd wager the the possibility of that happening is about zero. Intel owns the rights to X86. They aren't going to just easily give a license to a huge customer to allow them to become a huge competitor instead.

    Also, no one on the planet has the experience with X86 that Intel has. It seems highly unlikely to me that anyone is going to do it better. AMD has been chasing this goal for ages and still hasn't.

    Also, going ARM-only coupled with traditional emulation software to provide backwards compatibility with old Mac software would likely be unacceptably slow. Transitive had very unique just-in-time technology that made Rosetta viable, but Transitive no longer exists; it was gobbled up by IBM. Once again, it might be an impossible licensing issue.
    Randy B. Singer
    Co-author of The Macintosh Bible (4th, 5th, and 6th editions)
    Mac OS X Routine Maintenance ē http://www.macattorney.com/ts.html

  11. #41
    After Mojave
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    Quote Originally Posted by Randy B. Singer View Post
    I'd wager the the possibility of that happening is about zero. Intel owns the rights to X86. They aren't going to just easily give a license to a huge customer to allow them to become a huge competitor instead.
    From what I vaguely recall, thereís something about the history of x86 that forces Intel to license it to anyone who wants a license. Thatís one reason they were pushing the Itanium architecture early on... they wouldn't have to license it out. I could be mis-remembering this. Maybe itís just that AMD has a perpetual license to x86. Actually in just reading around now, that latter thought appears to be the case, more or less. Anyway, there are other licensees of x86 (yeah, I was surprised to see that there are), so there is precedence. Plus, Intelís CEO openly regrets rejecting Appleís inquiries to use them as a foundry for their ARM chips. Maybe an x86 license could be part of a deal to let Intel take on that business? Unlikely, probably, but itís a thought to explore.

    Also, no one on the planet has the experience with X86 that Intel has. It seems highly unlikely to me that anyone is going to do it better. AMD has been chasing this goal for ages and still hasn't.
    Could the same have been said for ARM? Apple is at the top of that architecture despite coming in late. Of course they had to buy the talent, but hey, maybe there are some Intel guys looking for a change.

    Also, going ARM-only coupled with traditional emulation software to provide backwards compatibility with old Mac software would likely be unacceptably slow. Transitive had very unique just-in-time technology that made Rosetta viable, but Transitive no longer exists; it was gobbled up by IBM. Once again, it might be an impossible licensing issue.
    I agree completely. Emulating hardware is very processor intensive. It wasnít that long ago when emulating arcade machines from the 80ís wasnít even a good experience. Even less long ago before early Nintendos could be emulated.

    Please verify and include the exact model/year of your Mac and OS X version number (available from "About This Mac", then "More Info" on the Apple menu).
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  12. #42
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    But for most cases, I would propose, speed of emulation is not the critical factor. Just being able to emulate so that the job can be done would suffice, as long as the speed was not incredibly slow. I needed, for years, to be able to run Windows 7 because I had a specialty printer that had no Mac support. I would create the files (decorative labels for my wife's business) in macOS, then run Parallels to have a virtual Win7 device to send the print job to the printer. That was the ONLY reason for Windows on my Mac, and I didn't have any reason for it to have to be that swift.

    So if a Rosetta-like emulator came along, just to let me do what I want/need to do until the vendors can shift and recompile in an ARM environment, that would suffice, particularly if the speed of the ARM was such that the emulation was anywhere close to the speed on the older Intel box.

    And Apple could still say that the Mac can run Windows, just through this emulation. Wouldn't have the same meaning as now, but could still be true, particularly if they provided the emulation at no cost to the buyer.
    Jake

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