Windows XP Pro on a Mac Pro - Best practices?

I'm considering buying a Mac Pro 8-core. I use a wide variety of applications, including photo-, sound-, and video-editing, as well as number-crunching programs.

I absolutely need to be able to run Windows XP Pro. In fact I'd probably be using Windows about 80% of the time, running programs like Photoshop, WaveLab, Matlab, Word Perfect and others.

I'm looking for advice on the optimal way to set this up. I assume I'll be using Boot Camp 1.2 (at least until Leopard is released). I've seen conflicting advice in the research I've done.

Suppose I use two internal hard drives, one for Windows and one for OS X. Is this better than partitioning one drive?

I've also seen reports that running programs like Photoshop in Windows is much slower than running them on a PC because of the EFI/BIOS conflict. I've also seen reports stating the opposite. What is the consensus here?

Finally, the bottom line is that I'd like to be able to run OS X, but it isn't crucial. I also like the quality of the Mac hardware. But if it makes a lot more sense to get a high quality PC, I guess I'd do that. Saving money isn't that critical, but it's a factor.

Any other miscellaneous advice appreciated, including thoughts on how Leopard might affect any analyses of the above issues.

Thanks,
Mike

BTW, I should add that I'd like to use the 23" HD Cinema monitor, with the NVIDIA GeForce 7300 GT graphics card. Let me know if this presents any other issues.

thanks again,
Mike

To be honest, if your going to be running Windows 80% of the time you would be better off buying a PC rather than a Mac.

Under Boot Camp, Windows apps run like normal Windows apps. However, the first flag this raises in my mind is, does Windows XP support 8 cores? Aside from that, is there any reason you don't want to use Parallels? Parallels will work for any of your applications except the 3D-intensive ones like the Half-Life 2 game. Also, support is coming for multiple cores within a virtual machine.

Also note that Boot Camp is still beta software. I believe the expiration date is in September (anyone care to confirm?) or whenever Leopard is released. If you are serious about using Leopard, you won't want to switch to it right away - give it a few months to get the bugs worked out and the Mac applications ported to it.

baggss said:

To be honest, if your going to be running Windows 80% of the time you would be better off buying a PC rather than a Mac.

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I saw the same response in another thread. Can you explain why, though?

Also, what kind of PC setup has the same build-quality in the hardware? Keep in mind that this thing will probably get shipped across the country several times in its lifetime.

kaidomac said:

However, the first flag this raises in my mind is, does Windows XP support 8 cores? Aside from that, is there any reason you don't want to use Parallels?

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(1) I'm mindful of the fact that not many apps at this point will take advantage of the 8-core processor, but I wanted a machine I would be able to use for many years to come.

(2) I've been told that Parallels doesn't quite work as cleanly as Boot Camp for some applications. (Correct me if I'm wrong, though).

While Apples build quality is good, running Windows is simply a secondary capability. You have to use Apples bottcamp to run it independently of OSX to begin with. Since Macs don't have a BIOS (they use Intels EFI instead), you will be reliant on Apple to provide you the software to make Windows work on their hardware for the foreseeable future. You can emulate it within OSX, but again this is really a secondary capability not a primary one.

With the kinds of Apps your looking at running under Windows on this machine and the amount of time you expect to run Windows at all, it seems like you might want to go with a machine that is designed around the running of that OS, vice one that is designed with running Windows as somewhat of an afterthought.

As for PC setups, I have no idea. I have not owned a real Windows PC, at least not a desktop, in probably 10+ years. I hear HP is still good and I hear the higher end Dell XPS systems are nice as well. Sadly, none of them offer and 8 core option as of yet as far as I know.

Alienware systems are VERY WELL BUILT. There are others. A Mac is made for OSX. If almost all your usage is going to be Windows, get a well made high end PC. I agree with Baggss 100% on this. I would NEVER buy a Mac if I did not love and use OSX. I would build my own machine with the best quality parts. Check out Alienware. Very high quality.

Alienware a pretty rubbish in my opinion. They use cheap flimsy plastic cases and regular parts of the shelf. And theyre ludicrously expensive.

baggss said:

To be honest, if your going to be running Windows 80% of the time you would be better off buying a PC rather than a Mac.

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Ditto with the above message. If you plan to only use the Mac 20% of the time why will you by such a high end Mac. If you really would only like to use a Mac to only get a feel for what OS X can offer, why not look into starting with the Mini? Once you start using a Mac you may decide to jump that 20% to 90%, who knows.

It is my professional opinion that anyone who uses the term "best practices" in the subject of a post on a Mac forum and will be using Windows 80% of the time needs to buy the biggest, baddest PC with graphics cards up the ying-yang that money can buy.

I'd recommend something in the Dell rack-mounted 4xDual core Intels with Vista Ultimate something-or-other. Or possibly Windows Server 2003.

We run Linux on that hardware with VMWare GSX server to host Windows 2000 guests to do that kind of processing.

I don't think you want a Mac.

I hear what you guys are saying, but I'd appreciate some more explanation.

You seem to be suggesting that Windows cannot take full advantage of the Mac hardware. Is this strictly because of the EFI/BIOS incompatibility? Or is it something else? And is Leopard likely to address the problem(s)?

Second, Dell just does not have the build quality of a Mac. I use a Dell at work, and it's OK, but buildwise I think it's a piece of junk compared to a Mac. This is really important to me because I'm going to be shipping the thing cross country several times.

If somebody can explain why (1) Windows cannot take advantage of a Mac, or (2) point me to a PC that is built as well as a Mac, then I will buy a PC as you suggest. Otherwise, why not buy a Mac??

And I really would appreciate the ability to use OS X on occasion. (I've gone through several iBooks, BTW, and currently run OS X 10.4 on an iBook G4, so I know what it does.) It isn't necessary for me, but it's a plus. I'd use it all the time, but it's just that I run a substantial number of Windows-only apps.

To put this simply, every PC you buy today, with few exceptions, is going to have that "Made For XP" or "Made For Vista" sticker on it. You'll never see one on a Mac. All those PCs are tested out with and sold with the the intention of being used with Windows. They are designed for Windows to take advantage of all of their features and Functions. Macs are not. One can not assume that any Windows compatible Video card, Audio Card, USB Hub or any other piece of Windows certified hardware will work when placed in a Mac. The Mac hardware is not tested against or certified to all of those Windows specs that the rest of the industry is. That doesn't mean they won't work, it just means that unlike Dell, Gateway, Sony, HP and the rest they are not guaranteed to. 10.5 is unlikely to address any of this.

If that alone is not a good enough reason to not buy a Mac to run Windows, then I don't know what is. Buying a Mac just to run Windows is like buying a Corvette to haul around lumber, it's just not made to do it.

The BIOS/EFI issue is separate but also important. There will be a new version of Bottcamp with 10.5, but no one know exactly how it will work or what it will change/support. That alone is crap-shoot right there.

Just to add to baggs, these blurbs are right from Apple's website:
Warning: Boot Camp Beta is preview software licensed for use on a trial basis for a limited time. Do not use Boot Camp Beta in a commercial operating environment or with important data. You should back up all of your data before installing this software and regularly back up data while using the software. Your rights to use Boot Camp Beta are subject to acceptance of the terms of the software license agreement that accompanies the software.

Important: Apple does not provide technical phone support for using Boot Camp Beta, burning the Macintosh Drivers CD, or installing Windows XP. Support is available on Apple's website. Fee-based support agreements are not available for Boot Camp Beta.

The link to the whole article is http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=303572

Alienware gets its fair share of complaints, so does Dell (Dell used to build so well) Dell now owns Alienware, I think Alienware is still run on quite an independant basis - I can't speak for the US but over here in the UK Alienware charges a lot more than their parts are worth, coupled with caes that I don't persoanlly like (Thats just me!)

The way you are going to get the highest quality possible is to build your own system or go to one of the professional OEM builders who will build with a wide range of brand name parts

If you can try to talk to potential sellers and push them for the brands of their parts, warrenty conditions concerning upgrades, what kind of case they will use, cooling - all that stuff, sometimes you may have to push for the infomation (If you hasve to push you may decide the company isn't worth dealing with, you are doing them a favour - not the other way round)

I hate the term "Best Practices". Where did that come from

anyway? Do you mean the best way to do something? Or is "Best Practices" some Industry Standard? Do it in the manner which works for you and forget about "Best Practices" which sounds like the way "they" all do it.

baggss said:

To put this simply, every PC you buy today, with few exceptions, is going to have that "Made For XP" or "Made For Vista" sticker on it. You'll never see one on a Mac. All those PCs are tested out with and sold with the the intention of being used with Windows. They are designed for Windows to take advantage of all of their features and Functions. Macs are not. One can not assume that any Windows compatible Video card, Audio Card, USB Hub or any other piece of Windows certified hardware will work when placed in a Mac. The Mac hardware is not tested against or certified to all of those Windows specs that the rest of the industry is. That doesn't mean they won't work, it just means that unlike Dell, Gateway, Sony, HP and the rest they are not guaranteed to. 10.5 is unlikely to address any of this.

If that alone is not a good enough reason to not buy a Mac to run Windows, then I don't know what is. Buying a Mac just to run Windows is like buying a Corvette to haul around lumber, it's just not made to do it.

The BIOS/EFI issue is separate but also important. There will be a new version of Bottcamp with 10.5, but no one know exactly how it will work or what it will change/support. That alone is crap-shoot right there.

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Very well put Baggss

I basically agree with the other posters above.

I am fairly new to the Mac realm. At this time am planning a new box for myself some time later this year. I am very much torn between a Mac Pro and building myself another windows machine due to Vista. Must say though, that unless I am convinced I can either 1)totally do without windows or 2)the one or two apps I need windows for, run and function well enough to satisfy me using Boot Camp / Parallels, another windows box it will be. And, I have already switched to using my Mac 90% of the time.

As any hardware enthusiast already knows - if you are looking for the best hardware (to run windows) - you must build it yourself. (Or as Miffle suggested above, go to one of the oem builders and have them build one with the parts you dictate.) This does take a fair amount of research.

A Mac will not solve any of the problems associated with shipping the system back and forth across the country multiple times.

The optimal way to set up windows is going to be on a system with hardware designed for windows, with the manufacturers of those parts supporting and putting out bug fixes for windows, not on a system with hardware designed for OS X.

As for hardware fixes, patches, firmware updates, etc.; you will be obtaining updates needed by OS X and hardware that Apple decides to ship in their systems. This means no firmware updates for the motherboard, videocard, etc. from the manufacturers of those items for fixes that should be implemented for running windows.

You will have no or very limited ability to upgrade your system for hardware you may need, require or just plain want for windows, since you wlll be limited to the hardware that will also support OS X.

With Bootcamp, windows will be installed on the primary disk.

Quality of the Mac hardware - what, you like the appearance of the outside of the box? All of the hardware on the inside except the motherboard (with it's EFI instead of a BIOS) can be purchased individually and be put into a system designed for windows. There are several excellent case manufacturers - try antec, Lian Li, Cooler Master and others with many features not incorporated into the Mac Pro.

For the price of a top of the line Mac Pro at $8k, you can build a windows machine by purchasing the parts yourself for probably $5K and have enough left over to get yourself a top of the line MBP or 24" imac specifically for when you are wanting to use OS X.

edit: And, the only support you will have for any issues arising while running windows in Boot Camp - will be free from forums. There will be no support from any hardware / software manufacturers while using their products in Boot Camp.

TheThirdMan said:

Alienware a pretty rubbish in my opinion. They use cheap flimsy plastic cases and regular parts of the shelf. And theyre ludicrously expensive.

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Seconded. Alienware overclock their CPUs and GPUs so much that they burn out after 3 months. Not to mention, one of the hard drives in my Alienware's RAID 0 array went bad AFTER 30 DAYS. Everything gone, after not even a month of ownership. Needless to say, it went bye-bye quickly.

OK, this has been very helpful. I need to spend some time doing more research.

Thanks for all the advice though.