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Bad Apple store experience

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I went to my local Apple store yesterday and was asking about the Apple TV. When are we going to get movie content on iTunes etc. The sales girl said she did not know but admitted that it is not much use having an Apple TV if you have nothing to put on it. Then I asked this question

"How do I get DVD's I currently own onto the computer so I can play them through an Apple TV".

The sales girl nearly jumped down my throat. She went off into a long speil about how it is illegal and morally wrong. How I should be ashamed of myself for wanting to do something that is illegal and that therefore she was not prepared to discuss it.

I had no idea it was illegal (or I wouldn't have asked the question) and if it is then I can understand why she is not allowed to discuss it. I thought that it was the same as taking a CD that I own and ripping that to the computer. You're allowed to do that (Apple even build the software for doing it into iTunes) why not DVD's?

Anyway my issue is that the Apple store I was in is not particuarly big and the sales girl was not exactly keeping her voice down so people nearby started looking at me getting this verbal dresing down from the sales girl.

I felt so embarrased and humiliated because people were looking at me that I couldn't get out of there fast enough.

I understand that the staff cannot discuss something that is illegal and that they need to inform their customers as such but there is a way to do this politely and there is a way to keep your voice down so that not everybody in the near vicinity can hear.

Grrrr

[/rant]
 
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You should report the situation to the manager. Apple, as we know, especially the retail stores are very big on customer satisfaction. In fact, I see your point and was wondering the same thing about using your own DVDs. I do not believe this is illegal activity because you are not copying it, or broadcasting for a fee.
Although I have not had a experience like yours, I often find, because most employees are young, and the turn over rate is high, some Apple Store Employees plain suck. They don't have the knowledge of the Macintosh platform, and often can't answer people's questions.
 
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I had no idea it was illegal (or I wouldn't have asked the question) and if it is then I can understand why she is not allowed to discuss it. I thought that it was the same as taking a CD that I own and ripping that to the computer. You're allowed to do that (Apple even build the software for doing it into iTunes) why not DVD's?

Actually if you live in the EU it is illegal, it is only in the US that a test case failed because the jusdge deemed "backing up" bought CD's as "fair usage", elsewhere the terms of the copyright (usually in small print somewhere on the CD insert) apply in law, i.e no copying for any reason.

Of course noone is going to actually take you to court for personal copying as it would cost them far more than they would possibly gain and if a European Judge made the same ruling as the US one did the negative publicity they would get would not be at all conducive to good profit margins.

Amen-Moses
 
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Although I have not had a experience like yours, I often find, because most employees are young, and the turn over rate is high, some Apple Store Employees plain suck. They don't have the knowledge of the Macintosh platform, and often can't answer people's questions.

I had a young female employee talk me out of buying some software because "as it isn't universal it wont work on the new Macs", when I asked if it would work under Rosetta she just gave me a blank look!

Amen-Moses
 
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Employees lacking knowledge is one thing but choosing to embarass you like that is simply out of order, there's no way I would stand for that. Definitely either go back or call them to complain. Knowledgeable employees would be nice but you should at least be able to expect some courtesy. How much easier would it have been for her to simply say "That's actually illegal sir, I cannot talk about that I'm afraid"?
I also like the way she called it "morally wrong", I consider it morally wrong to act like that to complete strangers.
 
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I'd agree that this girl needs to be put in her place: the customer comes first (especially in America, right?).

However, I'd also say it's worth making an effort to praise good service when it's given sometimes, as it's always easier to criticise. I recently wrote to the head office of Kwik Fit about a nice bloke who change the tyres on my wife's car...
 
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Agreed Martin, I'm so used to bad service here in the UK that I just let it go. When someone goes the extra mile I'm usually so impressed that I'm compelled to tell someone.
 
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That's just plain bad service any way you slice it. Even if someone was trying to talk about something illegal, aside from trying to rob the place, conversations should be kept as confidential as possible. And they should always show you respect to make sure you bring your wallet back.

I worked in hotels for a few years. At a downtown hotel where I worked as a concierge we would often get businessmen asking us where they could get some "female companionship. All we could do was politely tell them we cannot assist them with anything of that nature and we would usually hand them a local newspaper with escort serviced advertised in the back. The rest was up to them.

I would definitely go back to the store and have a few words with the manager if I were you. Even if you feel like it's over now and nothing will really make it right, people shouldn't just get away with being so rude and left to wrong others the way you were. Don't let her get away with it!
 
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Unless the sales-puppy was an experienced international intellectual property lawyer who was just moonlighting at the Apple store for extra money, she was probably wrong... Ripping your personal stash of DVD movies is one of those really gray legal areas.
 
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Actually if you live in the EU it is illegal, it is only in the US that a test case failed because the jusdge deemed "backing up" bought CD's as "fair usage", elsewhere the terms of the copyright (usually in small print somewhere on the CD insert) apply in law, i.e no copying for any reason.
This page, dated Dec. 15, 2003, has information on the issue, including a reference to a blank-media tax in the U.S.

Canadian law allows copying because the music industry charges a levy (not a tax, since it isn't charged by government — splitting hairs) on blank media. Many musicians, by the way, say most, if not all, the money goes to the labels, not them. So what else is new?

Anyway, this tax probably means copying DVDs is legal, too. I can't find anything specifically referencing DVDs except this (and there is no date on the page):
Blank Audio Recording Media
The Copyright Act creates a levy on blank audio recording media, which it defines as (a) an audio recording medium onto which no sounds have ever been fixed, and (b) any other prescribed audio recording medium. See section 79 of the Act.

This has been interpreted to include both CD-R and CD-RW, and moves are afoot to add recordable DVDs, MP3 players, removable electronic memory cards and removable micro-hard drives. You can find out more here.
The U.S. has such a tax, too.
The USA is often held out as an example of a place where "this could never happen", but as far as I can tell, it has been law there since December 8, 1994. It is part of Title 17, section 1004, and if you go to:

http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/1004.html

you will find this paragraph:

(b) Digital Audio Recording Media. - The royalty payment due under section1003 for each digital audio recording medium imported into and distributed in the United States, or manufactured and distributed in the United States, shall be 3 percent of the transfer price. Only the first person to manufacture and distribute or import and distribute such medium shall be required to pay the royalty with respect to such medium.

Note, however, that in the US there is NO levy collected on "ordinary" CD-Rs When the legislation was last changed (in 1994/1995) CD-Rs were not seen as a media intended for copying music. There IS a levy applied to other digital media, such as DAT and CD-R Audio.
Canadian law makes for some weird twists, according to the page. I could steal a commercial CD and a blank CD, copy the original but be charged only with theft, not copyright infringement. The page with this information is in no way official. The home page says:
This is an ad-hoc work that gets out of date from time to time.
 
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Unfortunately I live about 40 minutes from the Apple store concerned and I don't have the time to go back. I could ring and ask to speak to the manager I suppose.

Would you ring the manager or wait about a week to go back and then complain? I didn't get the assistants name. I was so disgusted that I just walked out.
 
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I'd probably wait and go in person. Makes a better impression. If you know what day exactly you were there, it won't be too hard for the manager to figure out who was working.

And even if you were going to do something questionable, such as downloading a TV-show because it airs six months after the US where you live, the person working there has no right to give you a hard time about it.
 
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It amazes me how people are so worried about copyright infringement when the rest of the world is so messed up. Pathetic.
 
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This page, dated Dec. 15, 2003, has information on the issue, including a reference to a blank-media tax in the U.S.

Canadian law allows copying because the music industry charges a levy (not a tax, since it isn't charged by government — splitting hairs) on blank media. Many musicians, by the way, say most, if not all, the money goes to the labels, not them. So what else is new?

Anyway, this tax probably means copying DVDs is legal, too. I can't find anything specifically referencing DVDs except this (and there is no date on the page):The U.S. has such a tax, too.Canadian law makes for some weird twists, according to the page. I could steal a commercial CD and a blank CD, copy the original but be charged only with theft, not copyright infringement. The page with this information is in no way official. The home page says:


The difference is, the tax or fee is not directly passed onto the consumer.
 
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It amazes me how people are so worried about copyright infringement when the rest of the world is so messed up. Pathetic.

it is just a glorified form of theft, which i hope you do think is a big problem
 
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it is just a glorified form of theft, which i hope you do think is a big problem

It honestly doesn't bother me. We are the ones being robbed. Hollywood has so much money yet nothing with substance is made. Every movie is ridiculous. I saw a movie named Shiri. It was a korean spy film. Quite honestly the best action movie I have ever seen. The thing only cost $4 million to make. I know it is wrong but its relative. Why make the rich richer.
 
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It honestly doesn't bother me. We are the ones being robbed. Hollywood has so much money yet nothing with substance is made.

I'm not going to argue ethics too much here (as I am no angel always either)... but
How does this argument even make sense?! How are "we" being robbed?

Nobody is forcing you to see movies and listen to music... and nobody is certainly making you see "Hollywood" movies and music. There's a lot of free content out there that you can freely and easy enjoy legally... If it upsets you so much that Hollywood/The Man/Whatever is charging you to enjoy their content our way of fighting the man is to NOT see these films/songs/content and SUPPORT open source and free content.

Otherwise, you gotta deal with it. Stealing music/movies is not putting Hollywood out of business... it's part of the reason we are paying $10.50 to see a film.

I'm not disagreeing that there is corruption in the system and yeah, the rich get richer... but so what? That's the market. They are producing things you want to enjoy and have and you have to pay for that... or just not have it.

There are positives happening every day... Look at the DRM free EMI/iTunes pair up announced earlier this week. This is a step in the right direction!

I'm sorry. But I just can't begin to agree with the idea we, the consumer, are being robbed in ANY way.

Now if say, the price of food went up 150% or anything needed for survival... then I'd completely agree. As it stands owning movies and music is a luxury... not your right.
 
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I'm not going to argue ethics too much here (as I am no angel always either)... but
How does this argument even make sense?! How are "we" being robbed?

Nobody is forcing you to see movies and listen to music... and nobody is certainly making you see "Hollywood" movies and music. There's a lot of free content out there that you can freely and easy enjoy legally... If it upsets you so much that Hollywood/The Man/Whatever is charging you to enjoy their content our way of fighting the man is to NOT see these films/songs/content and SUPPORT open source and free content.

Otherwise, you gotta deal with it. Stealing music/movies is not putting Hollywood out of business... it's part of the reason we are paying $10.50 to see a film.

I'm not disagreeing that there is corruption in the system and yeah, the rich get richer... but so what? That's the market. They are producing things you want to enjoy and have and you have to pay for that... or just not have it.

There are positives happening every day... Look at the DRM free EMI/iTunes pair up announced earlier this week. This is a step in the right direction!

I'm sorry. But I just can't begin to agree with the idea we, the consumer, are being robbed in ANY way.

Now if say, the price of food went up 150% or anything needed for survival... then I'd completely agree. As it stands owning movies and music is a luxury... not your right.
You make some valid points. I don't mind paying money for a movie if it's worth it. Maybe rob is too strong a word. We definitely aren't getting are money's worth.
I have heard many artists on radio say, Buy my CD or just download it I(we) don't care. They still make their money in the end. Concert seats and video marketing are what make the money..For the artist. CD sales make money for the production companies. They have too much money anyway.
I need more incentive to buy.(i.e special edition, coupons, nice cover...)
This is just my view...take it for what its worth.
 
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You make some valid points. I don't mind paying money for a movie if it's worth it. Maybe rob is too strong a word. We definitely aren't getting are money's worth.
I have heard many artists on radio say, Buy my CD or just download it I(we) don't care. They still make their money in the end. Concert seats and video marketing are what make the money..For the artist. CD sales make money for the production companies. They have too much money anyway.
I need more incentive to buy.(i.e special edition, coupons, nice cover...)
This is just my view...take it for what its worth.

Let me start off right away by saying that I appreciate your civil and thoughtful response. The last thing I was looking for was any kind of forum fiasco and posting war. :)

And secondly, I agree completely. The idea is that innovation, as you put it "incentive to buy" is the key. In this day in age it's relatively easy and financially viable to produce high quality content at home, whether it be video, music, pictures, etc, that rivals some of the work the big boys in Hollywood do. And it's even easier to distribute this media. The internet and the power of the modern day personal computer is bringing user generated content to the fore front and soon this lower cost and/or free content may take a big chunk of pro media's money. Competition is golden!

Now, that's not to say that having a million dollar budget, professional marketing and years of experience doesn't make it easier for the RIAA, MPAA, etc.... but the lack of ridiculous access to this resources means the little guy has to provide interesting and engaging content. Most importantly has to be unique, resourceful and talented.


Example... I find myself lost in the world of podcasting and blogging and I am sure that the big news corporations are sensing this shift and starting to feel a little bit of pressure (Fox picking up Myspace still comes to mind).

Innovation isthe key. There are a million places for me to find new exciting content on the web that is legal, free and professionally made. When I'm bored I move on... and that includes mainstream media.


Oh, what was this thread about? That apple store lady? :)

FWIW, she was completely out of line. I manage/run the service department division of the company I work for and I would never, ever allow myself or one of my techs to make any kind of statements like that lady said to a customer. It's not my business. (Ok the exception is kid porn... I'd gladly put a dangerous person in jail, even if it meant losing my job.)
 
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Actually, it should be noted that it IS illegal to backup or copy DVDs. It has nothing to do with sharing the video, but rather the copy protection on the DVD itself. It is against the law to bypass that encryption, which is necessary to backup the DVD.

Even if you're just doing it for personal use, it is technically illegal. This is why commercial programs that backup DVDs don't last very long on the market as they get sued into ceasing production. Take DVDXCopy as an example for the Windows platform. It was an amazing piece of software and took only a few clicks to backup a DVD. But since it bypassed DVD encryption, it was sued and went out of business.

However, I will agree that the employee was stupid for raising her voice and going off on a moral tirade. She could have quietly stated that it was illegal and couldn't talk about it as many consumers are unaware that backing up DVDs is illegal since ripping CDs is so commonplace.

Though I'm a bit surprised you just stood there and took it. I would have asked her to calm down and then would have talked to her manager right then and there. I deal with a lot of customers in my job, but I never raise my voice, regardless of how much of a nitwit the customer is being.
 

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