Hard Drive Cameras

Hello, I'm a new user to the forums.

I am interested in opinions about hard drive camera models. Specifically I am looking at budget / entry-level JVC (Everio?) and Sony models. Pretty much my budget goes to the bottom of the line for that style of camera.

I am a new user to video, looking for a consumer-level camera. However there is one thing I have worked out form myself while researching the topic of cameras. Specifically, I do NOT want to buy DV tape. Tape is a dead medium, especially in the consumer end where the record-to-DVD format is taking over. Also Firewire is also seemingly less common too.

This leaves me with the Hard Disk format, which appears to be the format of the future. It will probably come equipped with USB only. So it seems that I should be able to just mount the camera's hard drive and copy the files off it onto my Mac? Can anyone verify this assumption for me? However it also seems that the usual file format produced by these cameras (MPEG-2) is an issue for iMovie. I have found that I can use the free software MPEGStreamClip to convert this to DV format so iMovie can import and edit it. This appears to be a satisfactory process for me for the time being -- if someone can confirm just how fast and convienient this process actually is.

My main uses for the camera would be, to take holiday videos and similar maybe do some budget music videos for upload to You Tube. I also like bird watching, while I have a still camera for that, I'm curious about bird behaviours so a video camera will help me document bird behaviours and interactions in my backyard or while on trips.

Another constraint on me is that my wife will also want to use the camera and edit videos from it - she's got a Dell laptop. Its got USB2 and the little mini-firewire connector.

I'm currently very frustrated by by the video camera options I am getting for the Mac. For the first time since switching, it seems I am being limited in my purchases by the Mac. Tapes are ludricrous, in the music production sphere we abandoned them (DAT) many years ago. Frankly, it is my opinion that Apple should support what the camera makers are producing and not the other way around, so Apple should get off their collective arses and start at least supporting Hard Disk video over USB 2.

Anyway, if anyone has any experience using the budget Hard Disk cameras with a Mac, I'm very interested in your experiences and opinions.

thanks
scot

To be honest, I did not read your whole post, I stopped when you said that you did not want to buy tapes or did not want firewire.

In my opinion (as a professional):

I believe that you should not stop thinking about firewire, as of right now firewire is the most important technology in video. All video things are firewire, cameras, decks, the technology is huge in the industry, and in my opinion pretending that this technology is not important is not a good idea.

Another thing is I think tapes are also very important. As a consumer, you are probably thinking about taping video of your kids, family, family events, trips, etc. Think of it this way, if you record on the hard drive and then something happens to it somewhere along the line before dvd production... ITS GONE. If its on tape. IT IS NOT GONE. I think that tapes are very important in this respect. Don't get me wrong I think that sometimes there can be a problem with the tapes, regarding drop outs, etc. This problem is more likely to occur on older cameras then on newer ones. All DV camera's have firewire ports on them, This will allow you to buy a firestore drive later on, and you will be able to put a hard drive on the camera side or back or where ever you feel comfortable.

INCASE YOU DIDN'T FEEL LIKE READING THE WHOLE POST THIS IS THE POST IN SHORT:

Firewire is very important. Tapes are important to save the hard copy. You can always add hard drive to a dv camera, but never tape to a hard drive camera.

just my .02

good luck in camera searching.

i completely agree with pbg4 on this one.

i also believe that you have a whole heck of a lot to learn about video production.

also if you want a lot of the best stuff out there, you are goingi to need to spend more money than the lower end stuff

usb2.0 is not the best way to transfer large amounts of video. yes it has a faster transfer rate but it is not a constant transfer rate, the mb/s fluctuates which may screw up your video transfer. re: firewire, it is always x mb/s and stays that way which is a good thing. you think apple needs to get off their **** and adopt a technology which will inhibit their own product?

hard drive video seems stupid to me anyway. hard drives fail, can lose information etc and you cant back up your hard copy unless your goingi to buy a hundred dollar hard drive. and when you are working on a project and fill your hard drive in the middle of a shoot do you sit and wait for usb2.slow to finish transfering your stuff, get another expensive hard drive? or just slap in a new tape and your up and running in 15 seconds.

i put on my flame suite now
-chris

All I know is stay away from JVC...As far as video cameras I have to say this suck a lot of butt. I love Sony and Canon. I would also stay away from Panasonic.

coach_z said:

i completely agree with pbg4 on this one.

i also believe that you have a whole heck of a lot to learn about video production.

-chris

Click to expand...

I wouldn't say I know everything, but i wouldn't say i have a lot to learn. I am certified in many different video applications and by separate sound companies and due to trademark agreements signed I can not mention their name. (I believe)

But I am always willing to learn more.

PowerBookG4 said:

I wouldn't say I know everything, but i wouldn't say i have a lot to learn. I am certified in many different video applications and by separate sound companies and due to trademark agreements signed I can not mention their name. (I believe)

But I am always willing to learn more.

Click to expand...

i think the you have a whole lot to learn comment was for the OP

PowerBookG4 said:

To be honest, I did not read your whole post, I stopped when you said that you did not want to buy tapes or did not want firewire.

Click to expand...

Hi thanks for your thoughts. The problem I have with tapes, as I said, it's a dying medium and offers only serial access to the content on them. As I said, being involved in recording and production for audio, its been many years since I've had to use tapes for anything! They are highly inconvienient. The medium itself is also fragile in my opinion.

Firewire itself, I don't have any opinion about, other than it seems to be omitted more and more frequently from consumer gear. When I asked about it at the camera store, I got looked at like I was some sort of alien. The models there that had firewire were about 1/4 of all the cameras on display. I would prefer firewire, but it seems that the selection of models is limited compared to what I have if I drop as that as a must-have item. Hard disc cameras apparently mount as a normal USB disk drive so its just a matter of copying the files. Well I'm trying to verify if that's the case in all available models so I don't get caught out. Where the Mac (and probably Windows too) really seems to fall over is the support for the video format in the files, which are MPEG2.

Another thing is I think tapes are also very important. As a consumer, you are probably thinking about taping video of your kids, family, family events, trips, etc. Think of it this way, if you record on the hard drive and then something happens to it somewhere along the line before dvd production... ITS GONE. If its on tape. IT IS NOT GONE. I think that tapes are very important in this respect. Don't get me wrong I think that sometimes there can be a problem with the tapes, regarding drop outs, etc. This problem is more likely to occur on older cameras then on newer ones. All DV camera's have firewire ports on them, This will allow you to buy a firestore drive later on, and you will be able to put a hard drive on the camera side or back or where ever you feel comfortable.

Click to expand...

I don't understand; once I get it home I can back up the contents of a hard-drive camera to the computer. Or even my laptop "in the field". Although you say I can't put a tape on a HD camera the question in my mind remains ... why would I want to? You didn't read my full post but I don't have kids, and with each passing year the chances of that decrease, so apart from holidays, the tasks the camera will be put to being used don't constitute a critical need from my point of view.

But I don't want to really enter a flame war regarding tape vs hard disc. As far as I can see, the market is sending tapes the way of the dodo and I don't want to be stuck on an obsolete format. That doesn't mean I don't 'like' tapes; its not in my control what formats Sony et al make cameras in. Sure tapes will survive on the pro-end for much longer than they do at the consumer end but I am not buying on the pro-end of the market, I'm down the other end, trying not to buy one of those DVD-R cameras and wondering if anyone here has any experiences with hard drive cameras and editing the content on the Macintosh.

regs
scot

coach_z said:

i completely agree with pbg4 on this one.

i also believe that you have a whole heck of a lot to learn about video production.

also if you want a lot of the best stuff out there, you are goingi to need to spend more money than the lower end stuff

Click to expand...

I admit I am a total newbie to modern video production. For video, I don't really want to spend more money, I don't need 'best'.

Sorry for not reading your whole post, I have ADD and I find it hard to make it through the long ones. This one I did read all the way through.

Well if you realy do not like tapes, then I would go the route of getting hard drive, do not get the dvd ones. They are really bad. I mean that. I have one just laying around, I don't know why I have it, but I do. I never use it, but for a few occasions I found it helpful to use the small camera.. The video quality is quite good, but the dvd is a real pain in the butt to work with (unless you have a powermac), because you can not put the disc in the slot loading drives, and the mac can not see the usb device that is the camera..

good luck in camera shopping.

coach_z said:

and stays that way which is a good thing. you think apple needs to get off their **** and adopt a technology which will inhibit their own product?

Click to expand...

Yes they do. They need to support the level at which they aim their computer equipment - consumers. If GarageBand is any comparative yardstick, iMovie ain't a pro application. From my visits to consumer level camera stores in recent weeks, the consumer video end is apparently moving rapidly towards USB and those horrible DVD-R cameras, with hard drive models slowly dropping to affordable prices. I'm just following where the market apears to me taking me.

A few things to things to think about.

1.) Firewire is the standard for digital video. That may change for the consumer as more cameras are coming with USB 2 also. Likely because most computers (MS Windows) have not had firewire.

The firewire connection on the Dell will work a firewire camera. There are many editing packages that should work fine for the wife.

2.) Hard drives have a finite space. Tapes are endless up to what you are carrying with you. Tapes may be dead in the recording industry, but not a dead medium in the video industry yet. I'm sure the time will come, but I personally want something other than a finite fixed hard drive. Perhaps large size memory cards.

3.) As I understand it, the DV codec is of a much higher quality than the MPEG2 used in digital video cameras. Also note that when you convert from one format to another, you lose some quality.


I'm in need of a new camera, and despite what I've said above, I am going to consider a hard drive camera if I can find one that does DV encoding. Based on my past video taping experience, I doubt I'd fill it up, per outing or trip.

And do agree that Apple needs to offer native editing of the MPEG2 files for the consumer. They already allow editing of several formats, at least for their pro software.

GarageBand and iMovie were never intended to be pro applications.

iMovie -> Beginner
Final Cut Express -> Intermediate
Final Cut Pro -> Professional

GarageBand -> Novice/Enthusiast
Logic Pro/Soundtrack -> Professional