Is my iDefrag Optimization taking too long?

ted939 · Jan 22, 2018

Hi MF community! I hope someone might be able to advise me here.

I recently upgraded my OS from 10.7 to 10.9.5, and I already had iDefrag 1.7.3 (229), which I'm using now.

As we speak, I'm about 15+ hours into a iDefrag Optimize on a 4TB external drive that only has 650GB used, and the Location Indicator is barely over halfway through the populated area of the Whole Disk Display.
I'm wondering: Does this mean I have another 15+ hours left to wait for this, and if so, is this normal/OK for iDefrag to take some 15-30 hours to optimize 650GB on a 4TB drive?!

Here's my setup:

iDefrag
Version: 1.7.3 (229)
Algorithm: Optimize
Class Set: Default
Enable per-class sorting: SELECTED/CHECKED
Skip files that cannot be defragmented due to lack of free space: SELECTED/CHECKED

Computer
Model: Late-2011 MacBook Pro
Processor: 2.5GHz Intel Core i7
Memory: 8 GB 1333 MHz DDR3
OS: 10.9.5 (13F1911)
Startup Drive: 1.05 TB SSD SATA
Connection: MacBook Pro ThunderBolt 1 <--> Elgato ThunderBolt 2

External drive being defragged/optimized
Brand: Seagate
Model: Expansion Portable HDD (STEA4000400)
Size: 4TB
Connection: Seagate's USB 3 <--> Elgato USB 3

Dock/Hub
Brand: Elgato
Model: ThunderBolt 2 Dock

ALSO - Regarding upgrading from iDefrag 1.7.3 to 2.2.8 (per Corialis website suggestion for OS10.9.5):
a. What's the process?
b. What's the cost?
c. How would it benefit me (if at all)?

I look forward to some help, as my work is halted until I finish defragging some drives, and I'm wondering if I need to budget 30 hours of computer downtime per 650GB of hard drive defragging :-|

Thanks!

chscag · Jan 22, 2018

Welcome to our forums.

I can't answer all your questions especially those with regard to cost. That should be directed to Corialis. I can tell you that you are not running the latest version of iDefrag, however, you may be running the version that is correct for your version of macOS. (You're way behind there also since the latest macOS is 10.13.2)

As to the length of time to run iDefrag.... yes it takes a long time to run and since you have a large (4 TB) drive which contains 650 GB of data.

By the way, do not run iDefrag on your startup SSD as it is not recommended to defrag a solid state drive especially if you also have TRIM installed.

Also, I have to wonder why you're even bothering to defrag an external hard drive? There's certainly no benefit that I can think of regardless of whether it's connected by USB or TB. It's not going to be any faster. All you're doing to that Seagate is making it work hard and probably invoking unnecessary wear and tear on it.

harryb2448 · Jan 22, 2018

Do not use iDefrag on an SSD. Coriolis state any improvemen ts are only minimal and suggest not running the program on an SSD.

https://coriolis-systems.com/support/2015/3/should-i-defragment-my-ssd

chscag · Jan 22, 2018

harryb2448 said:
Do not use iDefrag on an SSD. Coriolis state any improvemen ts are only minimal and suggest not running the program on an SSD.

The latest word from Coriolis is that iDefrag will not work at all on Flash Storage that has been formatted to APFS. It is totally incompatible with the new file system.

Raz0rEdge · Jan 22, 2018

Defragmentation is a waste of time (and buying software to do it is a waste of money). Not longer after you defragment your drive will the fragmentation begin. The perceived performance you get from doing this is negligible at best.

ted939 · Jan 22, 2018

Hi chscag, thanks for your reply!

Yes, I know I'm not running latest iDefrag version. That's why I asked about upgrading it.
And, yes, I know mac is up to OS 10.13 now, but I need 10.9 on this computer for now.

You say iDefrag takes a long time, but do you think 30 hours for 650GB is right?

You wonder why I'd defrag an external drive, to which I answer for the same reason one would defrag an internal drive - to make it run faster and more efficient.
Why would you wonder that about an external one, but not internal drive? Why would you say no benefit to external drive defrag, but not about an internal drive?

Thanks!!

ted939 · Jan 22, 2018

Hi Raz0rEdge, thanks for your reply!

Are you saying that the last 20-30 years of millions of people defragging their drives did not help the drives run faster and more efficient?
Really, there's no benefit to defragging?
If so, why have soooo many techs and consumers said they've experienced obvious improvements after defragging?

Thanks!

chscag · Jan 22, 2018

Are you saying that the last 20-30 years of millions of people defragging their drives did not help the drives run faster and more efficient?

No, because they were running DOS or Windows back then. You're on a Mac. And defragmenting an external drive that is formatted to NTFS (for Windows) is likewise a complete waste of time. Use defragmenting software on a Windows formatted internal hard drive does help to speed up the drive. But hey, it's your drive, your time. If you can perceive any improvement after it finishes, let us know.

And yes, it will take a long time as I stated before. I used iDefrag on an older Mac that I used to own that had a 500 GB standard hard drive installed and it ran overnight before finishing. I have since uninstalled iDefrag since I now own an iMac with pure flash storage.

pm-r · Jan 22, 2018

I recently upgraded my OS from 10.7 to 10.9.5, and I already had iDefrag 1.7.3 (229), which I'm using now.

then

Yes, I know I'm not running latest iDefrag version. That's why I asked about upgrading it.
And, yes, I know mac is up to OS 10.13 now, but I need 10.9 on this computer for now.

I'm lost, but if you're running iDefrag 1.7.3, it only supports OS X 10.3.9!!! You're a wee bit out of touch with updates.

See their compatibility page:
https://coriolis-systems.com/support/2015/3/which-version-idefrag-do-i-need-os-x-10x

If so, why have soooo many techs and consumers said they've experienced obvious improvements after defragging?

Probably because they weren't using or talking about Macs and also turned off their Macs at night if they were and no maintenance tasks ran.

- Patrick
======

Raz0rEdge · Jan 22, 2018

ted939 said:
Hi Raz0rEdge, thanks for your reply!

Are you saying that the last 20-30 years of millions of people defragging their drives did not help the drives run faster and more efficient?
Really, there's no benefit to defragging?
If so, why have soooo many techs and consumers said they've experienced obvious improvements after defragging?

Thanks!

Well, let's take a look at how this all works.

When files are stored on permanent storage, the pieces are seldom stored in a consecutive manner. The file is split into many parts and scattered around the drive. On Microsoft filesystems, the FAT (File Allocation Table) is used to track all of these pieces as it pertains to a file. On Unix based filesystems, the inode table serves a similar purpose.

Either way, with spinning media, when the files begin to get scattered a lot, the head has to do a lot of seeking to find all the components to present the full file for consumption by applications. The process of defragmentation reads the FAT or inode table and takes all the pieces and aligns them in as much of a consecutive manner as possible. This has the advantage of making the head not seek as much and ability to read the file quickly and present it.

However, this defragmented state stays for a short while before the fragmentation happens again with normal use.

With SSDs, there is no spinning media or head that is being physically moved around and as such the reads are not affected by any level of fragmentation as long as all the bits are properly known.

So JUST because it has been done by everyone for countless numbers of years, doesn't necessarily mean there is value in it or that it is necessary with the latest technologies.

In a lot of cases, many bad habits were picked up by DOS and Windows users that have made it way into the Mac/Unix land which is very unnecessary.

MacInWin · Jan 22, 2018

Also, as Ashwin explained, when a file needs to be written then the OS first looks for a single free space where the document will fit. If it finds one, it will write that document into that space. Assuming this is a well written app, then it will go back and erase the old version of the file, leaving THAT space now free. Next time a file wants storing, that "hole" will be considered, and if the file fits into it, it will go there, leave a smaller "hole" there. Eventually the hole will be too small for anything and will be left there. Over time, those holes will take a lot of space and when the drive starts to get full an a really large file needs more than any single free space, it will be written into all those holes. At that point the drive will become really slow as the heads have to fly all over the platter to gather up the bits in the holes. Defragging stacks all the files next to one another in contiguous space on the drive, but as Ashwin said, as soon as you do ANYTHING, the process begins again.

SSDs, on the other hand, have no heads and so the search function is done at memory speeds. Defragging is totally not needed, and is more harmful than useful. Files get fragmented, but access is so fast that the fragmentation is immaterial.

Raz0rEdge · Jan 22, 2018

And just a corollary along to Jakes explanation, RAM works in exactly the same way. The system will allocate needed memory from available free space and when the allocated memory is returned, it just left there (marked as available) and no clean up happens. When the next allocation request comes for a smaller chunk, the recently available memory gets chunked and the memory is in use. At some point in time, you'll end up with a lot of holes across memory and a request that exceeds any of the available holes, now the memory manager has to decide if it was group all of the available memory into a large free pool or just start to use swap space to quickly free up a chunk.

"defragging" memory is an expensive process and since any app could ask for more, it is a bit risky and thus requires the system to block allocation requests for a period of time which can lead to the perception of hung apps or non performant systems.

The beauty with memory is that when you reboot the machine, you're back to square one and off you go.

ted939 · Jan 22, 2018

@chscag : So as I understand now, when you said, "Defragmentation is a waste of time (and buying software to do it is a waste of money).", you meant to say that that is the case for modern macs? Is that correct?

And if that is correct, then why do plenty of people say that defragging their modern macs does make a difference?

Also, yes, I know you've said a couple times that defragging takes a long time. I'm asking if upwards of 30 hours for 650GB defrag is typical. Do you know?

Thanks!

ted939 · Jan 22, 2018

pm-r;178 I'm lost said:
https://coriolis-systems.com/support/2015/3/which-version-idefrag-do-i-need-os-x-10x[/url]

Probably because they weren't using or talking about Macs and also turned off their Macs at night if they were and no maintenance tasks ran.

- Patrick
======

Yes, I know I'm not using latest iDefrag or OS. My previous comments show that I know that.

Yes, I know about Coriolis' webpage recommending which version to use. I referred to their page in my original post.

No, it's not because they weren't talking about macs. There's reports all over the internet over the years up til now, of people saying defragging their modern macs is beneficial.

Would you happen to know any answers to my original post's questions?

Thanks!!

ted939 · Jan 22, 2018

Raz0rEdge said:
Well, let's take a look at how this all works.

Big thanks for taking time to write that great explanation. I did happen to know all that, though.

I am not defragging an SSD drive (as my original post explains).

Would you happen to know any answers to my original post's questions?

Thanks!

ted939 · Jan 22, 2018

MacInWin said:
Also, as Ashwin explained, when a file needs to be written then the OS first looks for a single free space where the document will fit. If it finds one, it will write that document into that space. Assuming this is a well written app, then it will go back and erase the old version.........

Just as I said to Ashwin, Jake, Big thanks for taking time to write that great explanation. I did happen to know all that, though.

I am not defragging an SSD drive (as my original post explains).

Would you happen to know any answers to my original post's questions?

Thanks!

ted939 · Jan 22, 2018

Raz0rEdge said:
And just a corollary along to Jakes explanation, RAM works in exactly the same way......

Cool! I didn't know RAM worked like that. Good to know

Would you happen to know any answers to my original post's questions?

Thanks!

chscag · Jan 22, 2018

Unless we're missing something about your first post, I believe all your questions have been answered.

pm-r · Jan 22, 2018

ted939 said:
Yes, I know I'm not using latest iDefrag or OS. My previous comments show that I know that.

Yes, I know about Coriolis' webpage recommending which version to use. I referred to their page in my original post.

No, it's not because they weren't talking about macs. There's reports all over the internet over the years up til now, of people saying defragging their modern macs is beneficial.

Would you happen to know any answers to my original post's questions?

Thanks!!

Well I sure don't know the total defrag time, but I did find this if you need to use your Mac before it's finished!!

I've found that even though the iDefrag docs say you can, you can't stop a defrag partly through and start it again. This will always ensure that the defrag starts over from the beginning in my experience. However, it's very nice that it will let you stop half way through the defrag cycle.

Click to expand...

I think that might help a bit with your questions.

Then leave the rest for some other time when you can let your Mac defrag itself for a full day or more I guess.

- Patrick
======

ted939 · Jan 22, 2018

chscag said:
Unless we're missing something about your first post, I believe all your questions have been answered.

I just re-read my original post and the replies up to this point, and I see that the only one of my questions answered was when someone said they don't know how much iDefrag upgrade would cost.
I bold-faced my original post's questions, for easier noticing, so check those out if you'd like to try answering them.

Thanks!!

Is my iDefrag Optimization taking too long?

ted939

chscag

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harryb2448

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pm-r

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MacInWin

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