AV software still being actively promoted

Hope this is okay to post here.

There is an almost daily question from OPs on AV software and I think that the Mac-Forums have a fairly general consensus that the problem is Malware and that most AV don't find them, slow your Mac, have the potential to corrupt updates as they see them as threats; and there are no wild viruses out there yet for the Mac. Routine response in most cases.

Sad, therefore, to see Macworld not only promoting the use of AV software, but recommending the so-called 10 best — http://www.macworld.co.uk/feature/m...e&utm_content=image&utm_campaign=Mainline2303

Even more surprising that Macworld admits that they slow down some Macs by as much as 25% and have both false positives and false negatives. Their "Best" is one which is quite often mentioned by OPs as causing problems.

I realise we and Macworld are not in any way affiliated; but we can perhaps now see how some users can be encouraged to install AV software.

Just my thoughts.

Ian

"Their "Best" is one which is quite often mentioned by OPs as causing problems." Yes Ian, and for $40.00 you would expect more.
I guess MacWorld is commercially driven and as these products are out there someone should be evaluating them and they have done that quite well but it is the terminology that really annoys me. The article "Do Macs get viruses? Do Macs need an antivirus? Why you DO need security software for your Mac | Mac security FAQs" refers to malware, adware and ransomware as though they are virus' which we all know they are not. The definition of a virus requires that it be self replicating and able to spread to other devices. This is clearly not so in the case of malware but perhaps the term "Virus" has just become so universal that developers can't see the point in educating or confusing the market by trying to distinguish between the true PC virus' and simple malware as found on the Mac OS.
Lastly does anyone need to continuously run an application that chews up resources and occasionally causes problems of it's own to protect them from something that can be easily eradicated with free software on a needs based episodic basis. My opinion, no. It is costly and unnecessary.
So I guess I will just have to get over my pedantic interpretation of inaccurate terminology. If it came from somewhere else and it causes a problem to the normal or expected operation of your device it's a virus. Still rubs me up the wrong way though.

Congrats, Rod, on reaching 2000 posts!

Ian

Ditto.

IWT said:

I realise we and Macworld are not in any way affiliated; but we can perhaps now see how some users can be encouraged to install AV software.

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Then there's the AV companies themselves promoting their products with as much "scare tactics" that they can get away with as well. "The sky is falling…the sky is falling!!!".

Think about it. Mac OS X has been around for 15 years…and all along the way the AV folks have been with us. Over those past 15 years how many real threats have there been??

Yet over those 15 years the AV folks have been happily taking Mac-Users money (staying in business)…and we really haven't gotten much in return.

I've said it before & I'll say it again. Apple computers are not invulnerable. And someday we may have something to be concerned about it. But in the present environment…I see no justification to install AV on my computers.

- Nick

Sad, therefore, to see Macworld not only promoting the use of AV software, but recommending the so-called 10 best — http://www.macworld.co.uk/feature/ma...n=Mainline2303

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First... thread moved here to Security Awareness.

Lately I've been disappointed in the type and quality of articles appearing in Macworld. Ever since IDG decided to go 100% digital and no longer produce printed issues, their reporting and writings have steadily gone downhill. It doesn't surprise me that they would promote and write about AV products for the Mac. Frankly, I'm tired of their "filler" articles and wish they would get back to real hardware and software issues that are important to you and I the users. Let them report and talk about AV products in their sister magazine "PC World" if they have to.

Well guys it follows that old, old Latin proverb.

'A buck is a buck is a buck'!

I have been using apple products since 2009 and have not seen any need to install any av software on them. started using apple products with a old g4 iBook,then a g4 powerbook, then a 2006 macbook, and a 2010 mac mini. now i have a 2009 macbook running 10.11.4, a 2010 mac mini running 10.11.4 and an iPad 2 running iOS 9.3.1. have never had any issues with any kind of malware that i am aware of. it is nice to use a computer and not have to run software that makes it run slow as 20w50 engine oil on a -20 below 0 day. apple products really do just work and are really the best around!!

I do think we have to bear in mind, rightly or wrongly (it is wrongly) the word "virus" is becoming widely accepted as almost any rogue script that anyone may unwillingly pickup from any source without intent that is expressly designed and deliberately intended to disrupt the normal function of a device. It may be to exact payment for erroneous threats like ransomware or disrupt your browser function, altering your search engine or causing popups to magically appear for no apparent reason like adware. There are lots of examples of a term or name becoming the universal identifier for an object despite being obviously incorrect. When I was a lad all ballpoint pens were called biros' but of course Biro was the name of the Frence company that popularised the retractable ballpoint and so became synonymous with the device. Then there's the Bic disposable butane gas lighter etc. As much as it grates on my nerves I can see that some of the top rated anti virus apps for Mac OSX actually only deal with malware while their PC product is primarily for virus' perhaps they just can't be bothered differentiating for the purposes of advertising and it certainly wouldn't be the first time advertising companies shaped, manipulated and influenced public knowledge.

Hi, all.

While I agree that OS X is significantly more secure and much less targeted than Windows, I don't agree that there "is no threat" (taking a bit of a liberty, bear with me).

Not using A/V software because the risk is so small is akin to:

- Not wearing a seatbelt because you've never been in a car accident
- Not wearing a motorcycle helmet because you've never crashed
- Not getting a flu shot because you've never had the flu

The list could continue, fill in your own examples.

I don't like the idea of having to run software on my machine to ensure that I am "as protected as I can be", but this is the reality we live in being connected to the Internet. If you wait until your machine is crashed by a virus of some sort, it's too late. A/V software does not fix problems, it helps to prevent them.

With Apple products continuing to gain in popularity and proliferate more households and companies, they are becoming a larger needle in a smaller haystack. Why are all of the viruses traditionally written against Windows? Because of the amount of impact they have based on the sheer volume of machines. Macs growing in numbers are making them a more desirable target. And, while they may be inherently harder to infiltrate (because the OS is designed to be secure in the first place), it WILL happen.

With that said, I think the products highlighted in the MW article are laughable. The top five are complete garbage - Avast is horrid, I've had computers infected while running Avira - and they don't even list AVG (which I run).

Ember1205 said:

I don't like the idea of having to run software on my machine to ensure that I am "as protected as I can be", but this is the reality we live in being connected to the Internet. If you wait until your machine is crashed by a virus of some sort, it's too late. A/V software does not fix problems, it helps to prevent them.

With Apple products continuing to gain in popularity and proliferate more households and companies, they are becoming a larger needle in a smaller haystack. Why are all of the viruses traditionally written against Windows? Because of the amount of impact they have based on the sheer volume of machines. Macs growing in numbers are making them a more desirable target. And, while they may be inherently harder to infiltrate (because the OS is designed to be secure in the first place), it WILL happen.

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While I do agree with much that you are saying....(nothing is impossible, one day our Mac's may become victims of a virus, and yes Windows computers are generally a more preferred target for virus writers). But there still isn't a terribly convincing argument to need AV software. There are currently no Mac virus's "in the wild"…and running AV apps can have their downsides.

If someone back in 2001 (when Mac OS X was first released) until 2016 (today)…insisted that they needed AV software on their Apple computers…they would have been running AV software for 15 years straight with no need for it. If running AV software had no negative aspects…then sure…run it. But many AV apps do have negative aspects…such as hogging computing resources (slow the computer down).

I also wanted to comment on the proliferation of Apple products. Yes…Apple products have gained popularity over the years (iPhone, iPad's, AppleTV, iWatch, etc.). But when it comes to Apple computers…Apple's computer market share for a long long time has remained fairly steady in the 10% or less area. Thus Apple computers are not a "larger needle in a smaller haystack".

See the charts below:

- In chart #1 (2009/2010) Apple's computer market share was 10.5%.
- In chart #2 (2015) Apple's computer market share was 6.9%.

The "other guys" have almost always been more than 90% of the computer market. I wish Apple was doing better than this…but that's the way it goes. And of course lately…consumers are slowly migrating from computers…to tablets & smartphone's (hopefully Apple iPhones & iPads).





- Nick

p.s. Source documents for charts:

http://arstechnica.com/apple/2010/10/apple-breaks-10-market-share-in-us-lenovo-climbs-globally/
http://appleinsider.com/articles/15...-third-quarter-amid-continued-pc-market-slide

I said it so many times and I will say it again .....

Those who believe that technology will solve their security problems do not understand the technology and do not understand the problems.

Take a step back and validate where the vulnerabilities are and what the threats are. Then define the risk and map that to your risk appetite.
I have a very low appetite to risk and I decided ( many moons ago ) to focus on vulnerabilities. The less you have them, the safer you are.
( That is why I wanted an OS that worked for me, not the other way around. )

Awareness is key for everyone. Trying to change a mindset.
Why are people running their PC's every day with admin privileges ?
Why do people click on " I agree " when they are prompted to install an upgrade ?
Why do people use software that is repeatedly flagged with negative press ( ie. Flash & Java )

At the moment, Antivirus software for OS X is all about FUD. ( Fear , Uncertainty, Doubt ) .... vendors want to make a living and the OS X install base is growing.
Then again, OS X is not a target .... people are the target. It is people who click the " yes infect me with malware " button.
There are so many things that an end-user can do to prevent malicious code from entering/running on their device .... it beats me why they are still not doing it.
( One golden rule ....if you did not specifically went looking for it, don't install it )

I realise that changing a mindset is not easy ( After more that 30 years working in IT Risk ), but we all need to keep trying.
We are so focussed on sharks, but every year more people are killed by wild pigs than by sharks. To me that indicates that we are not focussing on the right thing. ?

We continuously identify " bad network traffic " and block that, instead of defining what is legitimate traffic and allowing that to pass through.
Awareness and communication, that is the key solution .... technology is not, it will always be one step behind.

One day, tools ( technology ) may become a " must " , but then again the tool must be configured correctly .... back to people.
( A fool with a tool is still a fool )

I have always been very passionate about IT related risk, but without the right approach , managing risk is useless.

My 2 cents.

Cheers ... McBie

pigoo3 said:

If someone back in 2001 (when Mac OS X was first released) until 2016 (today)…insisted that they needed AV software on their Apple computers…they would have been running AV software for 15 years straight with no need for it. If running AV software had no negative aspects…then sure…run it. But many AV apps do have negative aspects…such as hogging computing resources (slow the computer down).

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Exactly the argument that I was stating doesn't hold water [for me]. How many years did people use PC's before THEY were hit with their first virus? How many years did people use Word before Melissa hit?

I get what you're saying about all of the years that people were using Macs w/o the need for A/V software. But, that WILL change. And the longer the trend without a virus, the more likely it is that the virus will hit "tomorrow".

McBie said:

At the moment, Antivirus software for OS X is all about FUD. ( Fear , Uncertainty, Doubt ) .... vendors want to make a living and the OS X install base is growing.
Then again, OS X is not a target .... people are the target. It is people who click the " yes infect me with malware " button.
There are so many things that an end-user can do to prevent malicious code from entering/running on their device .... it beats me why they are still not doing it.
( One golden rule ....if you did not specifically went looking for it, don't install it )

Click to expand...

A/V software for MOST platforms is about FUD. I agree that there are plenty of other ways to mitigate risk that would make it so that you don't NEED to have A/V, but ESPECIALLY when you're dealing with users that are less than VERY tech savvy, you have to have that software in place to protect those people from themselves.

Ember1205, I slightly disagree ....

Give a man a fish and he will have food for 1 day. Learn a man how to fish and he will have food for the rest of his live.

AV software ( on OSX ) is not protecting anyone from anything. .... AV tools are always too late.
Malicious code is becoming so intelligent as not to set off any AV detection at all.
Malware is far more efficient. Ask someone for his password nicely and he/she will give it to you ..... just try it.
Simply drop a USB memory stick next to the coffee machine and within minutes that stick will be in someone's machine.
Give a malicious application the icon of a folder and name it " Tanzania Safari Pictures " and within seconds people will click on it.

It is all about layer 8 of the OSI model .... the layer between the chair and the keyboard.
And too many times, the mouse is faster than the brain.

Cheers ... McBie

Macworld now is so desperate that I will be reading a news from a site and all of a sudden Macworld pop up will grab that site and freeze my screen and no matter what I do i can not move except to turn off my MBP.... the only option Macworld gives me is to accept to download and test what they offer.... I have to get out of what I am reading by turning off my MBP coz I don't want to be coerced by this company into submission into what they want...what a PITA.....

Download AdBlockPlus ad Ghostery and run them will no doubt help.

and consider Malwarebytes for Mac for cleaning up nasty malware.

harryb2448 said:

Download AdBlockPlus ad Ghostery and run them will no doubt help.

and consider Malwarebytes for Mac for cleaning up nasty malware.

Click to expand...

Yes, i did follow your suggestion and it made my life easier and with so much peace..... now i can follow the news without the page moving up and down as the Pop ups explode left and right and to the center of what I am reading..
I also downloaded Malwarebytes and Onyx as suggested.......
Thanks to all of you.......

McBie said:

...It is all about layer 8 of the OSI model .... the layer between the chair and the keyboard.
And too many times, the mouse is faster than the brain.

Cheers ... McBie

Click to expand...

I so agree! I recently issued an "email safe practices" list to everyone at work - since it is my job! Anyway, I can always tell who actually read the memo and payed attention. I can even make a list of who's computer I need to "visit" and run scans on, which will probably have "issues."

I have one person who will forward to me anything she is suspicious of - which is better than opening it I guess. She gets hundreds of emails a day from members not only in our local area but statewide. So I am her ultimate filter. Joy.... now if I could convince her of safe surfing....

I have one who is the exact opposite, who never reads my email notices, that gets the prize for most "issues." I have to stay on top of him constantly. He has a Windows computer in his office and an iMac in the recording studio. He obviously loves the mac and wants one in his office because it never develops "issues." He also does not use it to surf the net hunting for free software/apps from questionable sites like he does the Windows machine - and no, he is not using torrents, those are blocked. But if I had it in the budget, I would get him a mac for his office as he is a danger to us all and life would be sooooo much easier for me.

So there is so much truth in McBie's OSI model of vulnerabilities - it resides in the fingers of the operator as they go tripping through the internet or opening their mail. ;D
And there is no anti-virus anything that can prevent operator-itis.

Lisa

lclev said:

[SNIP]

So there is so much truth in McBie's OSI model of vulnerabilities - it resides in the fingers of the operator as they go tripping through the internet or opening their mail. ;D
And there is no anti-virus anything that can prevent operator-itis.

Lisa

Click to expand...

Sure there is. It's called bolt cutters - cut the ethernet and power cables. Not while they're plugged in, of course.