Considering Switching to Mac - Questions

Hi All,

I am seriously considering buying a brand new Mac Book Pro. Not sure yet if I want to go the extra mile and get the Retina Display version. After reading lots of the forum posts here I am certain I can get a few questions answered expertly

My living is made developing Windows Applications and Web Sites using Microsoft Visual Studio primarily. C# specifically as a language. (I know, I accept your condolences gratefully ) I will need to be able to run Visual Studio in a virtual machine. I am familiar with Virtual Box on Windows and Linux and have already (maybe incorrectly) ruled out Boot Camp and Parallels due to the resource heavy needs of Visual Studio (Parallels) and the fact that I want to be able to "drop" to OS X without having to reboot (boot camp).

I last used a Mac when the Power PC version first came out, but I do have *some* Mac experience and I was always impressed with the Mac "feel" and overall user experience, and I have noticed increasing numbers of my compatriots apparently successfully using Macs to develop Windows software.

Another of my needs is to be able to continue to develop software for Android, and hopefully soon iPhone.

After extensive research into native applications to replace my various daily use productivity software I currently use on Windows I am completely assured that I will have a better user experience than anything Windows offers so that is a non issue.

My questions are, am I correct in assuming Virtual Box is the best alternative? I have always been told it is best to run Virtual Box on another spindle so I would buy an external hard drive for that. Since transfer speed is important when doing that I am assuming a Thunderbolt/USB 3.0 drive would be best.

I also assume memory will be important, and that is the crux of my other question. On the Apple Store page I see no way to order more than 8GB of ram for the non-retina display Mac Books, but I can order up to 16GB for the Retina Display model. Is there no way to get 16GB on the non retina display model? Am I loosing anything other than display quality by not getting the retina display? I can afford either but would prefer to spend less unless I am seriously forgoing something awesome...

Thanks in advance for your kind consideration.

Robert Porter

Personally I do not think you need the retina, my dad hs it and I can notice a difference. The human eye can only process so many pixels at one time anyways.

Im not quite certan on Virtual machines, so ill let someone else with more expertise jump in to answer that ;D (i always used VMwere fusion and it worked great for my needs)

And 8Gb is great! Adobe recommends 4GB for their programs so anything over will be great for your needs!


Id say to go with non-retina 8GB. If you feel the need, go buy a big monitor with money you saved!

I personally like the Retina display version better. I "played" with both models in my local Apple Store for about an hour, a few days before I purchased my MacBook. The retina display model looks better, but more importantly, seemed to be a little easier on my middle-aged eyes. Both screens are nice, though. My advice would be to get the Retina display model if you're going to be staring at the screen for a long time while you do your work.

One of the main differences between the Retina MBP and non-Retina MBP besides the Retina screen is that the former has to be configured from Apple with the amount of memory you want since it is not user upgradable. Also, the rMBP uses a SSD while the MBP uses a HDD by default. The standard MBP can be purchased with the 8GB and upgraded (trivially) by you to 16GB (or whatever the max is)..

Since you will be wanting to use some virtualization (I recommend VMWare Fusion personally, Parallels as the next alternative and VirtualBox as the last) you want to max out the RAM on the machine to give enough memory to the VM while keeping enough for OS X to be happy..

My iMac has an i7 processor and 16GB of memory and I give my Linux VM 2 processors and 6GB and that makes it quite responsive and useful...

Now since you have to max out the rMBP from the factory, you'll end up paying quite a hefty price for it whereas the MBP can be upgraded to max memory way cheaper after the purchase..

Since your use case isn't photography or video related, you can potentially forgo the rMBP, unless you have the money and inclination to spend the extra $$..

Speaking about the virtualization software, you'll find that Parallels and VMWare Fusion do a much better job getting you much better overall performance than VirtualBox..and both of those are available through various bundles throughout the year as a package of 10 or 12 apps for $49.99 or so. They each retail at about $80 individually..

You can do your Android/iPhone development on the OS X side, so no worries there..

Thanks for the responses!

I have been reading up more on the Retina vs. Regular MBP and I have noticed a LOT of comments about serious issues with large numbers of the Retina display models. Issues such as screen "burn in", freezes, lockups, fan issues and poor battery life. At least 3 users posted about swaps of 3 to in the extreme 9 systems before they got one that worked. 2 of the users posted documentation supporting their issues. Appears to be partly luck of the draw, systems with Samsung displays appear to have fewer issues while those with LG displays have significantly more.

It also appears that if I buy the regular Mac Book Pro, I can upgrade the RAM myself, whereas the Retina models cannot be upgraded and you are stuck with what you bought. So at the moment I am leaning towards the MBP without the Retina Display. Which is a shame as the display is indeed very nice. But I don't want to spend months trying to resolve issues like these other users experienced. I need something that is reliable right out of the box.

Any thoughts?

Robert Porter

It also appears that if I buy the regular Mac Book Pro, I can upgrade the RAM myself, whereas the Retina models cannot be upgraded and you are stuck with what you bought. So at the moment I am leaning towards the MBP without the Retina Display. Which is a shame as the display is indeed very nice. But I don't want to spend months trying to resolve issues like these other users experienced. I need something that is reliable right out of the box.

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That would be my choice if I were in the market for a new MBP. Two things I would personally avoid for the time being when purchasing a new Mac: Retina display and Fusion drive. The jury is still out on both. But that's my personal opinion. And yes, I agree with you about the Retina display. It's really nice.

We should be seeing new MacBook Pro models this Summer so it might be wise to wait.

Besides your development, do you do any say Audio work at all? Will you ever want to plug something in and record? Check the specs. The Retina MBP has no audio in at all. Just some special Headphone Mic thing apple makes. The 15" Normal MBP has Audio In and Audio out. That would be a deal breaker for me. Also like you already found out, you are StUCK with the ram in the Retina and can upgrade the RAM int he normal MBP. Also since the Normal MBP uses a True hard drive, you can also upgrade that easily yourself with a 2.5" SSD. The Retina MBP uses some proprietary SSD Card that only OWC makes a replacement for. I think you might be a lot happier with a normal MBP and the 15" one has the most features and options and speed.

I'll chime in here as someone with a retina. It seems many of the issues have been worked out as it seems they have worked some kinks out. I bought the maxxed out retina from the refurb store, for like 500 less, my guess is it may have been a returned model that was fixed, and the screen is a samsung (the LGs apparently were the problem...) and this thing has been flawless from day one. The screen is fantastic, but it's something I appreciate not everyone would. You might check out the refurb store on apple's online store. They're all machines sold as brand new, full warranty.

Having said all that, I'll agree with Razor, the non retina is a very good choice, I run windows all the time, often booting up various versions for testing etc. I would -highly recommend putting in 16 gigs of ram from the get go, if you use windows for dev and you want to use it concurrently a lot, you'll want to assign 8 to each OS. ( 4 to windows if your working is light.) Having 8, or less, and you'll notice a slowdown. I notice practically nothing with 16. Running heavy work in os x, then in windows on this machine couldn't be better. I use vmWare fusion (5 now) and it rocks. I do know people who use parallels and they seem to like it as well. They are very similar, but my preference is vmWare. VirtualBox, as Razor said, definitely the last choice. Boot camp, is best all round, but you said you wish to run both OSs concurrently.

I am just loving the ssd/16gig ram combo. Best mac yet.

I use Parallels, seems to boot faster than VMWare. But the two leapfrog each other, so either would do. If you are going to put Windows on a separate spindle, you might look at Boot Camp closely before you go virtual. Running both OSes concurrently may not be required. As for Retina, I don't have an rMBP, so I can't say which is better, but the flexibility of being able to add RAM without paying the Apple price is something to consider.

dtravis7 said:

Besides your development, do you do any say Audio work at all? Will you ever want to plug something in and record? Check the specs. The Retina MBP has no audio in at all.

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I have to point out that this isn't strictly accurate. You have no *analog* audio in, it's true, but of course you have a wealth of digital audio in options through the USB ports.

Sorry Chas, I much prefer a built in LINE input. I detest a lot of USB so called interfaces. So what I said was very accurate. NO INCLUDED LINE INPUT!

And do remember the Line In is also an Optical Digital in.

dtravis7 said:

The Retina MBP has no audio in at all.

Click to expand...

This is what you actually said. I was correcting that. Your later clarification is fine (though I personally have not had any problems with the Duet, the Blue Snowball or the iMic I've used over the years, just sayin').

My retina has no audio in. It doesn't bother me much because I have a number of alternatives (usb devices) but I can see for the majority of people, who don't have any of these, it would be a real annoyance.

There is the odd time I want to just plug a mini plug audio in, and it'll annoy me probably at some point when I have to run downstairs to get my usb device to plug in just for something simple and quick.

I think they should have put an audio in as well.

Robert Porter welcome to Mac Forums mate. You could not have come to a better place for your information.
The problems you see online with the rMBP are from a few posts, where 1000's ? maybe 10 000's of them have been sold. You will always hear about the BAD things with a product and more of it than you will with a good product. Everyone likes to complain, but human attitude hardly has us praising things, which to me is v/ disappointing

Anyway my 2 bits worth. As mentioned before, have a look in the Refurb Store 15" rMBP Saving $460 before you go out and buy, as you get exactly the same warranty with a refurb Mac as you do with a new Mac.
The Retina's are not upgradeable buy the user at all in any way what so ever, as you have learnt. And as Charlie said , we are still out to lunch on the Fusion-Drive.
So my recommendation for what you are doing, i would go for the normal MBP and upgrade the RAM yourself.
I am new to developing and do fine with 8GB RAM 13" i7, but for you, not sure what sort of screen real estate your looking for but these are a beautiful machine. To upgrade the RAM if you go to OWC (Other World Computing) they sell only Mac related hardware and they TEST ALL their products and have never heard a bad thing about them.
I order from Australia and have it within 7 days, and what i ordered with great prices MyOWC at OtherWorldComputing.com ATM they have 2x8GB Matched sticks OWC brand (which is very good) for $149 on sale.

You don't need the Retina Display to develop on a Mac, and using Xcode for iOS or OS X development i think you will find a joy to use.
As with virtual machines, go on what Raz0r has posted. VirtualBox may be FREE but it is no means as polished as the other 2 and i back VMFusion as well. Integrates a lot better with OSX and i find navigating between the 2 a Breeze, but i now rum Win8 from BootCamp just for my RC Helicopter Sim that can't run in a virtual machine . . . .

So yea go the non rMBP and spend the extra $ on Apps through the MAS. There are some great Developing Tool Apps in there that have helped me along, being only a baby in terms of a Developer

Good luck and post back, even with pics, or it just didn't happen lol

Enjoy and stay around Robert

Cheers

dtravis7 said:

Not to argue but I see no BUILT IN audio input on the Retina. Sure you can go usb, but with a portable some will resent that.

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I don't mean to be pedantic, but as USB is a built in digital interface and there are loads of items that take advantage of that for audio, that's a built-in (potential) audio input.

Besides, there is another built-in, audio-only input: the mic for the iSight.

(but I know what you meant and mean -- I have a 2009 MBP that has just one audio port, though in my case it does indeed do either analog out or in -- though not both at the same time as in a headset mic grrrrr).

I don't disagree at all that an analog audio input port is still a handy thing. But then, so is an optical drive from time to time ...

dtravis7 said:

Sorry Chas, I much prefer a built in LINE input. I detest a lot of USB so called interfaces. So what I said was very accurate. NO INCLUDED LINE INPUT!

Click to expand...

chas_m said:

This is what you actually said. I was correcting that. Your later clarification is fine (though I personally have not had any problems with the Duet, the Blue Snowball or the iMic I've used over the years, just sayin').

Click to expand...

dtravis7 said:

Not to argue but I see no BUILT IN audio input on the Retina. Sure you can go usb, but with a portable some will resent that.

Click to expand...

chas_m said:

I don't mean to be pedantic, but as USB is a built in digital interface and there are loads of items that take advantage of that for audio, that's a built-in (potential) audio input.

Click to expand...

Come on lad's, we are getting off track in helping the OP out, even though you are both trying to clarify a point. He isn't going to make his decision solely on (Line in/out Audio in/out)

Good point. I'll shut up now.

WOW! Thank you all for the great info! Here is what I did!

Thank you to all that participated in my education via this forum. Have to say, having years of experience in the Windows world the experience in these forums has been VERY welcoming and a great signal to noise ratio!

I also fortunately have an Apple store very close by so after doing my online research and listening to all of you here I went in and spoke for several hours with two very accommodating Apple type people! (Also ended up joining a local user group that specializes in development on the Mac).

The store folks agreed that they are still seeing large numbers of returns and issues on the Retina models. Not epidemic but enough to warrant caution. They did say that recent software and firmware upgrades have minimized the issues, and they stressed that obviously the issues were limited to a small percentage of the units.

Their suggestion was to order online, get the minimum memory for the regular MBP and upgrade the memory myself. So I have ordered 2 8 GB SIMM chips from Crucial at their recommendation and I ordered the following Mac

15-inch MacBook Pro
2.6GHz Quad-core Intel Core i7 4 GB 1600MHz DDR3 SDRAM -2x2GB
500GB Serial ATA Drive @ 5400
8x Double-Layer SuperDrive
MBP 15" HR Antiglare WS Dspl

Since 98% of the use of the system will be for code development, I chose the anti glare screen but I did upgrade to the better HiRes display. I also will be buying Parallels as that seemed to be the consensus here and the store personnel agreed it would meet my needs handily.

I am also buying a 6TB backup and storage external drive array as well as a 1TB external drive for running my Windows and Ubuntu VM's. I selected a Thunderbolt drive to get the best transfer speeds. The 6TB system will be used to back up both my new Mac and existing Windows workstation. It will be network attached via dual 1 Gig Ethernet ports to my local wired and wireless networks.

On advice I will be purchasing the 3 year AppleCare policy as well as 1 on 1 just to jump start my experience. I am having the MBP delivered to the store so I don't have it go walking away from my door!

Again I thank you all so much for taking the time to help me reach an educated decision as opposed to an impulse buy! Now it is time to trade my Samsung Galaxy S3 in for a new iPhone!

Cheers,

Robert Porter

It sounds like the Apple staff guided you well. Congrats and enjoy!

I feel you made an excellent and very wise decision there. The 15" MBP is a great machine and will last you for years! Very upgradable system. Enjoy!