Autism and vaccines

I'm not going to lie. This whole autism/vaccine thing is really rankling my ire.

I am sympathetic to the pain and suffering that having your child diagnosed with autism can cause. However, I find the cries of these parents across the country to be irresponsible and unfounded.

If you are unfamiliar with the situation, it pretty much consists of parents, when their child is diagnosed with autism around the age of two, blaming vaccines for their kids diagnosis. Because many vaccines are given around the age of two as well, the connection is not entirely illogical.

But the scientific community has done study after study regarding this possible link. EVERY ONE has failed to find a 'smoking gun'.

What makes this situation so unnerving is the negative externalities of NOT getting kids vaccinated. Because parents are becoming more fearful of vaccines due to the unscientific observations of simple parents, they are less likely to get their children vaccinated. Unvaccinated children are more likely to get the disease (obviously), increasing the chance of outbreaks. Further, these outbreaks can even affect VACCINATED children. Not to mention the economic costs to the entire country, costs that the rest of society must bare.

In short, I find it absurd when people question the scientific community when there is such a clear and consistent consensus.

I completely agree, the researcher that linked autism to vaccines needs to be shot. A good portion of Americans are complete idiots and will listen to anything the idiot box tells them, especially when it comes to health issues.

It is cruel to not get your child vaccinated. You are robbing that child of the good health that you yourself enjoyed growing up. I especially hate those people who avoid vaccines because they don't want to fund the large pharmaceutical companies or because they want to go au natural. It's completely ludicrous, not to mention borderline child abuse.

This vaccine issue reminds me of those idiot parents who fed their child a vegan diet of soy milk and juice and watched the child die instead of changing the diet. Stupid hippies...

Kash said:

I completely agree, the researcher that linked autism to vaccines needs to be shot.

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That wasn't any "researcher." It was an upset, devastated parent looking for someone to blame for their heartache.

Understandable, yes. And very sad. But also very dangerous.

Vaccines save lives. That's a proven fact. And don't say "it's the big companies that make vaccines trying to cover it up"--most vaccines are so old that they're not covered by any patents, and are made by small generic companies. There's very little money to be made there, compared to, say, impotence pills.

Yes, there's some reason for the rise in autism rates...the more you rail at vaccines, the more children will be affected before we find the actual cause.

You don't know you don't know

CheesyBanana writes: "Further, these outbreaks can even affect VACCINATED children. Not to mention the economic costs to the entire country, costs that the rest of society must bare."

If the vaccines work so great, how could the Vaccinated be affected? How is injecting many multiple doses of Mercury, Aluminum, Ethylene Glycol (radiator fluid), Ether, Formeldehyde and foreign viruses and bacteria into new borns scientific and safe? The concept of vaccines makes sense 9to the uneducated), but anyone that knows anything about immunity will tell you that it does not give true antibody mediated immunity. It gives something called cellular immunity. That is why you need booster shots and the vaccinated have breakouts of measles and so on. I would gladly trade childhood illnesses that last weeks or even months for the life long disability my son has to face (not to mention the probable abuse he will recieve in a group home once my wife and I can no longer care for him).

No system is perfect. I realize that. The Japanese recognized that they were bombarding these infants with too much, too soon so they no longer allow vaccines to be given until the age of 2. Guess what?? Their infant mortality rate dropped to the lowest in the world (they were equal to the US) while the scientific USA rates around # 30. Coinsidence no doubt.

You also stated that there were no scientific studies supporting the vaccine link....WRONG. I have been to many conferences and the data and research would blow you away. Why do you think the government has portected vaccine companies (Big Pharm) since 1986?...it is impossible to sue them for damages. Go ahead and play Russian Roulette with your kids and grandkids ... when the chamber is loaded and hits one of yours, then we can talk. Until the polititians realize that the cost of caring for human beings with Autism, Asthma, Allergies, Cancer, Diabetes and so on is more than caring for simple childhood illnesses, then there will be a change. You talk about costs???? What does a lifetime of care, aids, assistants, special Ed and round the clock nursing care costs (don't forget the diapers!)?

Did kids die or become crippled from these illnesses? Yes. Most if not all that die from Chicken pox (for example) had some other comprimising illness or circumstance. For the overwhelming majority, these illnesses pass without problems AND give true, lifelong immunity. This also primes the immune system to protect against other chronic illnesses.

Don't forget that we have come a long way with sanitation, hygine and nutrition. I wish there was a simple answer, but there is not. I do know that directly injecting this stuff into our kids is the crime. I only hope that we will get some uninfluenced polititans to see the light before it goes any further.

Autism, like other conditions, is difficult to diagnose. There are kids (and adults) with Autism out there. However, more often than not, Autism is simply misdiagnosed. Many of the signs and symptoms are extremely similar to other conditions... Asperger's Syndrome for one. Asperger's is a behavioral condition and is in no way biologically related. Yet, it is strikingly similar to Autism and often mistakenly referred to as "mild Autism". It is not Autism at all.
Many times the seemingly detached personality of a child is simply the lack of certain stimuli and is neither Autism or Asperger's.
For example:
Johnny doesn't pay attention in class and looks out the window all day. He doesn't click with his classmates. Yet, he does extremely well on tests and schoolwork. He more or less keeps to himself. He might have seemingly "imaginary" friends that he talks to. He might even seem a tad hyperactive at times.

Does Johnny have Autism? NO.

Johnny is simply intellectually advanced past his current grade level at school. He isn't being challenged by his work so he seems distant from anything in class including other students.
What does Johnny need? Johnny needs to be put in an advanced learning class. Somewhere that will offer him the intellectual stimulus that he is lacking. Once Johnny gets this, his behavior magically improves. He makes more friends, he participates in class, etc.

Same goes for kids who are more or less ignored at home. Mom and Dad both work full time and have little time for the kids. Parents don't get involved with kids as much at school or other outside areas. Younger kids get dropped off at day care in the AM and not picked up again until late in the day. Once they are home, they more or less have dinner and then off to bed. As a result, kids don't have as much of a role model present in their lives. Unfortunately, I have personally seen this happen to children. A friend of mine was a director of a day care. They would put on shows, have parent-kid functions, parent-teacher conferences... many things that would give the parents time to become involved with their kids at day care. The children whose parents attended these functions were great kids. They were well behaved, polite, social and just nice kids. The children whose parents never attended things and dropped the kids off first thing in the morning and were the last to pick them up ended up being the distant ones. The ones who didn't seem to care about anything. They often misbehaved or acted out. They were clearly "different" from the rest of the children. Were they Autistic? No, they were simply neglected by the parents. They got no attention from the people who were supposed to be raising and rearing them.

Bottom line, I would wager that not unlike the rash of kids "diagnosed" with ADD/ADHD, many children are simply not Autistic at all.
The source of the issue is not vaccines... it isn't some disease... it's not a behavioral/social issue... it is none of these. The source of the problem lies squarely with the parents.

Well, this isn't really about autism but it's about vaccines and anti-bacterial crap that everyone uses now days.

My parents never used anti-bacterial whipes, have no vaccines ( other than of course MMR and Small Pox, you know, the ones EVERYONE is REQUIRED to have), don't wash my hands nearly enough (never really washed them after playing in the sand box as a child). Guess what? I am NEVER sick. I get over a cold in 3 days or less, haven't thrown up in 5-6 years. Can't really remember the last time I did, probably longer. Only time I missed a day of school was cause I slept in too far, and didn't feel like going.

Moral of the story: People are getting too anti-germ stuff and not allowing immune systems to adapt to the germs and bacteria around so the immune systems are weak as people get older. If anything isn't sprayed by 99.9% killer, they have a good chance at getting sick. Me on the other hand, has had a great development of my immune system being exposed to all types of germs. Amazing how that works isn't it?

BOTH of my kids have autism spectrum disorders. My daughter has aspergers (which is fairly rare in girls, and it is considered an autism spectrum disorder) and my son has autism. Both kids received their vaccinations while I was in the military.

While vaccines may not CAUSE autism I wouldn't rule them out as a trigger. We (my wife and I) don't blame vaccines caused the autism in our children and both kids received ALL of their vaccinations growing up. We knew that the vaccines were more helpful than harmful. In fact, most of the things that were thought to be contributing factors in the vaccines have been removed and the incidents of autism is rising not decreasing.

We were in the UK when my daughter showing signs of "something" autism, especially aspergers, was still difficult to diagnose in someone as young as she was. We saw one of the world's leading neurologists in London and he didn't have a friggin' clue what she had. It wasn't until my son was diagnosed and we told the diagnostician that diagnosed him that our daughter displayed MORE of the characteristics than our son -- so we completed the whole process with her. She has a weird hand-flapping thing she does when she is nervous/overwhelmed and she doesn't realize she's doing it. She also has great difficulty with clothing "bugging" her -- she's only worn socks very few times since she was four and wears mostly open-toed sandals. Getting her into a bra and through the whole female puberty thing was a real joy (not).

In my son's case he seemed to be developing perfectly normally UNTIL he received his MMR series -- the timing was just too coincidental. Then it was like someone flipped a switch and he suddenly stopped talking and basically had to relearn and it set him back at least a year or more. He's been going to school since he was 5 and requires special accommodations to help him succeed in school.

The worst part about having to deal with autism is fighting the stupid schools (government) to provide "equal access to education" as provided by law. Schools here (from our experience) will fight tooth and nail to provide as FEW services as possible. Threatening lawsuits does no good as the government is immune and the schools know it, so it's a constant uphill battle.

We could speculate forever, but until scientists/drs. know for sure what does or doesn't cause autism we can't rule out anything (even vaccines). There aren't any genetic links either. And I disagree completely that it is a social problem -- until/unless you have dealt with autism on a daily basis you are in NO POSITION to characterize it such.

It is odd that THIS generation of kids are more prone to autism than those of us who ate lead paint, were subjected to DDT and other insecticides and let's not forget red dyes.

UCSDC85 said:

CheesyBanana writes: "Further, these outbreaks can even affect VACCINATED children. Not to mention the economic costs to the entire country, costs that the rest of society must bare."

[snip]

Don't forget that we have come a long way with sanitation, hygine and nutrition. I wish there was a simple answer, but there is not. I do know that directly injecting this stuff into our kids is the crime. I only hope that we will get some uninfluenced polititans to see the light before it goes any further.

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You are right that vaccines do not give a true immunity. However, it SIGNIFICANTLY decreases both the risk of getting the disease and the danger posed by the disease.

You talk of 'childhood sickness'. Smallpox was one of the most deadly diseases known to man. It is now completely eradicated. Why? Vaccines. Polio, mumps, Rubella, typhoid, etc etc...all of them reduced to a mere improbability. Why? Vaccines. To deny the importance of these is absurd.

You also talk of scientific research. Find me an article in a CREDITED and PEER REVIEWED scientific journal that supports your claim. If you can, I will gladly concede that you may have a point. Otherwise, don't tell me about the huge amount of evidence...as far as I am concerned, it doesn't exist.

The costs of rising autistic kids (most of which are HARDLY in as bad of shape as you describe) just barely scratch the surface of what the global costs of epidemics would be. You can't sue Big Pharm? That is because you do not have proof. They are innocent until there is TRUE scientific evidence of a link. And don't tell me that it is just a conspiracy...saying that would prove exactly how little you know about the courts and our system.

A crime? A crime is knowingly compromising a child's life from REAL and SCIENTIFICALLY PROVEN threats. A crime is spreading lies and deceit.

ogacon said:

Well, this isn't really about autism but it's about vaccines and anti-bacterial crap that everyone uses now days.

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I agree that we are often too reliant on disinfectants. However, vaccines work in a fundamentally different way. They actually stimulate the immune system to give you exactly the kind of immunities you describe as wanting.

D3v1L80Y said:

Autism, like other conditions, is difficult to diagnose. There are kids (and adults) with Autism out there. However, more often than not, Autism is simply misdiagnosed. Many of the signs and symptoms are extremely similar to other conditions... Asperger's Syndrome for one. Asperger's is a behavioral condition and is in no way biologically related. Yet, it is strikingly similar to Autism and often mistakenly referred to as "mild Autism". It is not Autism at all.

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I'd just like to point out that Asperger's syndrome is most definitely on the Autism Spectrum, and is a developmental disorder, not a "behavioral condition." And it is biologically related.

It has been almost 10 years since I was diagnosed with Asperger's myself.

Just because something is in the ASD, doesn't mean it is Autism.
Asperger's while in technically in the ASD is still not Autism. THough similar, they are distinctly different. They are not the same and shouldn't be confused or interchanged. One is not the other.

What differentiates the two is that Autism is caused by a biological brain development disorder. This neurological disorder is the cause for social and communicative impairments. These are noticeable and recognizable well before the age of three years old.

Unlike Autism, Asperger Syndrome is a psychological development disorder. The exact physical cause (if one exists) for Asperger Syndrome is unknown. While there has been some research done using MRI that suggests it may be genetic and/or otherwise biological... there has not been any solid proof to undeniably connect it with a biological cause. Often it is not diagnosed until much later since there is no apparent delay in early lingual or motor development that is seen with Autism.


Those with Asperger Syndrome don't have a disability in need of a cure or special treatment.
We are just a little "different" from otherwise 'normal' people.

I don't know about evidence one way or the other. But I do believe people are being misdiagnosed more and more these days. Parents are way too overprotective or their children AND their searching for any reason as to why their child may be slightly different or not as successful in school.

Sadly doctors are more than happy to oblige them with a diagnosis that closely, or even remotely, fits the symptoms because that's their business and their bread and butter. And parents are more than happy to swallow whatever a doctor tells them, never thinking for a second that the doctor is just another person who could have been a C student that makes mistakes just as easily as anyone else.

There may be money to be made with vaccines, but I guarantee you it's nothing compared to the money made with the pills advertised on TV for everything from ED to RLS; Restless Leg Syndrome. You know my cure for RLS? I get off my lazy butt and take a walk or even a jog!!

Like global warming, I have to concede that I am not a world-renowned scientist and don't have all the facts at my disposal. So I believe in the golden rule of erring on the side of caution. If it comes down to the remote possibility on a side effect with little to no evidence and a vaccine that is absolutely proven to help, I'll take the vaccine.

ogacon said:

My parents never used anti-bacterial whipes, have no vaccines ( other than of course MMR and Small Pox, you know, the ones EVERYONE is REQUIRED to have), don't wash my hands nearly enough (never really washed them after playing in the sand box as a child). Guess what? I am NEVER sick. I get over a cold in 3 days or less, haven't thrown up in 5-6 years. Can't really remember the last time I did, probably longer. Only time I missed a day of school was cause I slept in too far, and didn't feel like going.

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It's very flawed logic to compare your personal situation to the general population. Obviously everyone isn't the same.

fleurya said:

It's very flawed logic to compare your personal situation to the general population. Obviously everyone isn't the same.

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Very true. But I find myself in the same situation. I quite simply dont seem to get sick hardly at all. I grew up and very active, outdoors kinda child. However I will just consider myself lucky, and I'll end on that.

bubba said:

BOTH of my kids have autism spectrum disorders. My daughter has aspergers (which is fairly rare in girls, and it is considered an autism spectrum disorder) and my son has autism. Both kids received their vaccinations while I was in the military
....

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Very interesting post bubba, thanks for being so open!

I think more research into the matter can't hurt anyone, but until something can be established one way or another vaccines are just like many other medical treatments: Necessary? Absolutely. Possible risks? Yes.

My son has an appointment for the MMR shot this month. There are so many conflicting reports about the link. It's maddening. Some say definitely. Some say absolutely not. Some say its possible. Some say the government agreed there is a link. Who the heck should we believe?

In the past when there were scares of the shot causing bad side effects, there were outbreaks of the diseases. I'm sure you can guess why.

Until a control set is made for proper testing and experimenting, it's really hard to know. What parent wants to use their children for an experiment?

I have heard opinions about not the vaccines themselves triggering Autism, but the combinations of vaccines - that combining multiple vaccines in a cocktail becomes too much for a little body's immune system to process and autistic symptoms are a result for some kids.

I also have to wonder if the increasing amount of plastics that are used in many food storage containers contribute to the raising incidence of autism - (some of those plastics leach their chemicals into the food we eat). Has anybody ever heard of a study of the effects of this?

It's quiet coincidental because we had this discussion today in one of my classes.

Some people brought up that vaccination raises the rates of autism, even though like previously mentioned has no scientific, or at least concrete proof. furthermore some have also speculated that environmental factors have contributed to the increase in autism, although like the argument about about vaccines playing a role, no concrete proof has been found.