RAM versus SSD on MacBookAir

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I just upgraded my RAM on a MBP, from 4GB to 8GB. Works MUCH better now. But I was wondering about MacBookAirs (as in 7,2) with SSD. I understand the RAM is currently sold at 8GB, and hardwired in. No upgrades. But the SSD is easily upgradable. Now, both RAM and SSD are solid state memory. So, um, what's the difference? That is, with RAM and a hard disk, the RAM is vastly faster than the hard disk, so you have RAM for most OS activities. But with an SSD, ALL memory is real fast. So swaps are probably speedy and transparent.

So I guess I'm wondering what the value of RAM is if you have an SSD? Is RAM actually faster than an SSD?
 

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So I guess I'm wondering what the value of RAM is if you have an SSD? Is RAM actually faster than an SSD?

You can't really compare memory and storage as they are two different things. Of course for best usage of your MacBook Pro and for speed, maxing it out with memory and the addition of a SSD in place of the HDD will give it new life (for awhile).
 
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You can't really compare memory and storage as they are two different things. Of course for best usage of your MacBook Pro and for speed, maxing it out with memory and the addition of a SSD in place of the HDD will give it new life (for awhile).

Not sure what you mean by saying that they are two different things. They are both solid state memory. Granted, they're used differently by the OS, but why can't the OS just carve off an 8GB chunk of the SSD and use that for real time memory instead of RAM?

In modern MacBook Airs, you CAN'T "max out" the RAMS. They're soldered in. What you get in the machine is what you're stuck with. No question that performance is enhanced by using an SSD instead of a hard disk.
 

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Let's go back to basics so that you have a better understanding of how the various components within a computer work.

RAM (Random Access Memory) is accessible to the CPU through a dedicated memory bus (people who build PCs will be familiar with the Northbridge/Southbridge buses) that is very fast. The RAM is meant to be a temp area for the CPU to hold things that it needs to be able to access to very quickly. However, once the machine is powered off, the contents in RAM will disappear (and it's expected to). There is no persistence in RAM.

The OS will manage the RAM for as and when apps need dynamic memory to perform their operation. What I mean by that is, you have a photo editing app and want to load a new photo. When you do the Open, the app asks the OS for some memory to load the contents of the photo from the disk to RAM (an expensive operation), once loaded, the contents are available to the app at a much faster basis. Now, if you have enough RAM to load the entire photo, then you will perceive no performance glitch as you deal with the photo. If you don't have enough RAM, then only parts of the photo will be loaded and other parts will be loaded as needed. This is the reason that having more RAM yields better performance based on your use case.

Now, SSD, HDD and others are storage (and called that) to differentiate the fact that these are persistence media and generally slower. While the latest MBP with it's PCIe based SSD is quite fast at about 1.5GB/s, the memory bus is still faster.

Reading and writing from persistence storage is expensive and because of persistence, the OS will do some amount of smart caching and syncing/flushing to ensure that data is always saved to the drive and you don't lose anything. SSDs have a limited lifecycle with erase/writes, so you DON'T want to use any part of it as RAM since that is erased/written/read to all the time. If you did use it that way, your SSD would fail within 6 months.

Back in the day, for cheaper machines with cheaper GPUs, the system RAM (called main memory back in the day) would be shared with the GPU which didn't have it's own dedicated graphics memory. These days, with the demands of games and other graphic intensive applications, GPUs have their own dedicated memory.

While it is true that RAM and SSDs are all flash memory, their use is entirely different and not interchangeable.
 
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Thank you. I think the critical info is that SSD memory is generally slower than RAM and that it has limited lifecycles. No question that machines these days are designed to have RAM that is directly accessible to the CPU, so it isn't just a matter of software choice to use SSD memory instead. But in principle, a machine could be designed with NO RAM, just an SSD that was accessible to the CPU. But the reason that isn't done, I guess, is because the SSD memory is slower and that since SSD memory has limited lifecycles, you don't want things to be flying in and out of it, as the CPU would want to do.
 

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Actually, no. Every machine ever designed was meant to have access to high speed RAM accessible to the CPU for temp storage and then additional persistent storage.

A machine can absolutely NOT be designed without RAM and use anything else. Let me explain why, but understand that I'm going to get technical because I'd have to. :)

When a computer is started, the CPU gets power and goes through it's startup sequence (I'm going to generalize here as opposed to talking about any one specific CPU/Architecture or OS) where it jumps to a pre-determined location to find some small piece of code known as the boot loader. At this point, none of the components of the computer are setup to use, just the CPU. This very early code's job is literally to set up access to RAM and then execute the 2nd stage boot loader which is more feature rich. The second stage boot loader is more featureful and has access to storage through the various interfaces, SATA, PCIe, etc. and also USB. This second stage boot loader is the one that finds and loads the startup component of the OS and hands over execution control.

At this point, the OS startup routine begins and continue to configure any additional components (LCD, trackpad, LEDs, USB ports (in high speed mode), keyboard, touchbar, blah, blah) and eventually will launch the user interface for the user to interact with it.

The VERY early part of the boot process is very limited and as such the CPU can only deal with the memory bus (hardwired to it on specific pins) through a crude manner until the second stage loader kicks in at which point in time it switches to a more optimized method of communication.

Traditionally the first stage loader is written in Assembly (done a couple of these) and that sets up an environment for a higher level language like C to be run which is what the second stage loader is usually written in.
 
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Don't think it too hard Doug.

1. An SSD will be a huge improvement.

2. Maximum RAM will be a lesser improvcement, but an im[provement.
 
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Hard thinking provokes well thought responses. There is NO QUESTION (and never was) that an SSD would be a big improvement. That wasn't what my question was about. I was just wondering whether the SSD could potentially serve two purposes.

I guess if the SSD is accessible only via USB, it would not be usable for the early part of the boot process. But you really only need a small piece of RAM for that. Once you go beyond the initial stages, and end up with USB connectivity, in principle an SSD could serve as RAM.

I now see this question has actually been asked before - https://superuser.com/questions/617864/why-not-use-ssd-space-as-ram , coming to many of the same conclusions. One quantitative one from that thread is that DDR RAM can be orders of magnitude faster than SSDs. Holy moley.
 

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I think one important parameter should be considered. If present day SSD's were fast enough & durable enough to replace RAM...and it was cost-effective...all of the computer companies would already be doing it!

Believe me...they're not going to overlook something this obvious if it were possible.:)

- Nick
 
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I think one important parameter should be considered. If present day SSD's were fast enough & durable enough to replace RAM...and it was cost-effective...all of the computer companies would already be doing it!

Believe me...they're not going to overlook something this obvious if it were possible.:)

- Nick



Now isn't that a nice basic, concise answer!! ;D

And yes, any drive, spinner or solid-state can and sometimes does work as temporary RAM and memory storage when needed.







- Patrick
======
 

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Now isn't that a nice basic, concise answer!! ;D

And yes, any drive, spinner or solid-state can and sometimes does work as temporary RAM and memory storage when needed.







- Patrick
======

That's known as swapping and another point of difference, DDR RAM doesn't have the same life-cycle limits of the flash parts used in SSDs.
 
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I think one important parameter should be considered. If present day SSD's were fast enough & durable enough to replace RAM...and it was cost-effective...all of the computer companies would already be doing it!

Believe me...they're not going to overlook something this obvious if it were possible.:)

- Nick

Well, I was never criticizing anyone for not doing it. Pretty obviously if it were a smart thing to do, hardware manufacturers would be all over it. My question was WHY it isn't done. Saying it isn't done because people don't do it is a marketing answer, not an engineering answer.
 

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Saying it isn't done because people don't do it is a marketing answer, not an engineering answer.

I didn't say it's not done because people/companies aren't doing it. I said if it were possible to do it cost effectively...companies would be doing it. Believe me...companies have looked into it & are looking into it...it's just too expensive for consumers to afford.

Your original question basically was...why can't an SSD act like RAM or replace RAM. That question has already been answered above.:)

Saying it isn't done because people don't do it is a marketing answer, not an engineering answer.

Marketing answer or Engineering answer...the answer is the same. It probably can be done ..it just costs too much! Computer companies have R&D departments...and there are certainly cool stuff that can be done...but wayyy too expensive for consumers to afford. Who knows...eventually SSD's (or a simiar speedy storage media)...may be fast enough to act like RAM.

But also remember as SSD technology improves...RAM technology also improves. Which means there may always be a "speed gap" between RAM and SSD's...with RAM always being faster.

In case you were interested...read about what's known as a "RAM Disk" or "RAM Drive". In a way it's kind of what you're asking about...but the down side to a RAM Drive is it's volitile (if it loses power...you lose what's stored).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RAM_drive

- Ncick
 

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Well, I was never criticizing anyone for not doing it. Pretty obviously if it were a smart thing to do, hardware manufacturers would be all over it. My question was WHY it isn't done. Saying it isn't done because people don't do it is a marketing answer, not an engineering answer.

I gave you the engineering answer.
 
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In case you were interested...read about what's known as a "RAM Disk" or "RAM Drive".


Wow!!! That sure brings back some memories and I think the last time I was able to use any RAM disk was back with the Power PC Mac running Mac System 8 or 9.

Yes it was fast — until the Mac crashed or whatever. :Smirk:

Is it still actually available when running Mac OS X?





- Patrick
======
 
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Your original question basically was...why can't an SSD act like RAM or replace RAM. That question has already been answered above.:)

Which is why I was confused about your response. Kinda obvious that if market forces drive them to do it, industry will do it.

- - - Updated - - -

I gave you the engineering answer.

Much appreciated.
 
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Doug, the answer goes back in history. In the earliest computers there was no solid state memory. Memory was wired in a very complex process of threading very small wires through magnetic loops called toroids. Here is a link to Wikipedia for a picture of a 1Kbit module: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic-core_memory

One of the features of core memory, as it was called, was that the individual core toroids, when read, were zeroed out and had to be re-written by a hardware process to put the core back to the state it was when read. Also, the toroid remembered the last state, so at boot up, the entire core needed to be zeroed out to be ready for it to be used. In the early days, there was no electronic long term storage for data, so the information was punched into cards for long term storage. You started the program in the computer and then fed the data cards into the job for the data to be processed and for answer cards to be punched at the end of the process, or the answer to be printed on a printer. When the computer was shut down, the core was stuck in whatever state it was when the last job ended, needing a reset at the boot process. Actually, in practice you NEVER shut the computer down, you just kept feeding a new job to it as soon as it finished the current one. One of the functions of loading that job was to zero out core memory to prepare for the new data to be written to it.

Eventually a magnetic media memory was developed that had long term storage on magnetic tape first and then drums, and then on disks. Tape data had to be accessed sequentially, as the tape passed through the machine, but drums and disks gave the ability to find data anywhere at any time. Quite an accomplishment. The data in the core memory could be accessed anywhere in the core at any time and was therefore called Random Access Memory, or RAM. Data density was very low, compared to today. I managed a data center that had the state-of-the-art (at the time) storage units that could hold about 350,000 bytes of information. We thought that was awsome! And the biggest computer in the data center had a massive 2 megabytes of internal core memory, and then an additional external memory unit with another 2 megabytes core in a box about the size of a desk (all water-cooled, of course).

Even back then, the memory in core was much faster than the other storage areas, so the central processor could operate at a high speed. Storage data was slower, even on drums and disks, but faster than tapes and punched cards.

OK, back in the time machine and back to today.

RAM is very, very fast non-persistent memory that is optimized for speed. The bus speeds into and out of RAM is some of the fastest parts of the entire computer. The upside is that RAM is fast, but the downside is that speed costs significantly more to manufacture and the memory is volatile: Remove power and it all goes away, poof! In fact, part of the internal operation of the RAM chips is that what is there is rewritten before it can fade. There is an entire portion of the chip dedicated to refreshing the bits over and over and over, millions of times every second. So, high speed, expensive and ephemeral.

The memory chips in an SSD are not as fast, but they are persistent. So you can store stuff on them and completely disconnect all power and the data will still be there when you put power back on and read it (Up to a limit, entropy will eventually cause the data to fade, but for our purposes, it's permanent until erased). But the downside is that it's much slower than the RAM and therefore the bus speeds are much lower to read/write with them. Cost is lower, so the manufacturers can put a LOT of it in your computer for not so much money. Bottom line? Slow, cheap and persistent.

To your question then. COULD it be done? Yeah, probably, although for the engineering reasons about booting already given you will still have to have some RAM, but could an SSD replace most of the current RAM? Yes, theoretically it could, but you would find the machine much slower because of the slow nature of the memory in the SSD. And given that what users want is speed, speed and more speed, any manufacturer who tried to build a no/low RAM system by using an SSD for RAM would find very few buyers.

So, that's it. It's based on engineering and it is based, partly, on cost. One could theoretically build a machine with all RAM for the speed and no SSD for storage at all, but then you would have to have a super-redundant power supply because everything would be in volatile memory and you could lose everything if the power died. So you'd have a super expensive, super sensitive and super fragile computer that demands power be so reliable that it never, even for 0.01 second, is not there.

Or you can build an all SSD slow machine.

Or, as they have done, you find a compromise of RAM and SSD that meets the user needs. And that is what the manufacturers do--try to find a "sweet spot" where cost and performance are attractive. The goal is to avoid using the slower SSD for any memory, which is why we say to folks who see a slowdown to see if they are seeing swap space in Activity Monitor. That swap is stuff that cannot fit into RAM, so it has to be written out to the SSD until it's needed. Doing that can really slow down the entire computer.

Hope that helps some.
 

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I think that's not the reason. Price per GB is lower in SSD than DDR RAM. The reasons were comparative speed of RAM and likely degradation of SSDs.

I think you're confused again.;) You're taking current day price parameters for SSD's and RAM...and then applying them to what I said...but that's not what I said.

The high cost is NOT related to the price of things we can buy today...the high cost is making an SSD that's as fast as RAM (right now...today). In order to make an SSD (TODAY in 2018)...that's as fast a RAM...this the product that would be super super expensive...and not affordable to consumers.

- Nick
 
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I think you're confused again.;) You're taking current day price parameters for SSD's and RAM...and then applying them to what I said...but that's not what I said.

The high cost is NOT related to the price of things we can buy today...the high cost is making an SSD that's as fast as RAM (right now...today). In order to make an SSD (TODAY in 2018)...that's as fast a RAM...this the product that would be super super expensive...and not affordable to consumers.

- Nick

Sure, an R&D program to make really zippy SSDs might cost a lot. But you don't know if it would be expensive, or super expensive, or super super expensive. You also don't know if once the R&D program were complete, if the product produced would be unaffordable to consumers. Might be super super cheap! Given that we don't know anything about future costing of dream-products, I choose to live in the current day, and I will repeat. With current day technologies, SSDs are too slow and too prone to degradation. That is why, in the current day, we don't use them instead of RAM. The smartness of product providers is that they don't want to offer a product that is slow and prone to raid degradation.
 

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